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  1. #1
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    Real Pinarello Dogma vs. Fake Dogma

    Is there anyone who has ridden the 'real thing' and also one of the China copy Dogma frames and can comment on the difference? Is it a very different ride? I know they can look almost identical, but so does a chocolate and a **** sandwich until you taste it. Really curious to know.

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    I hope someone chimes in with the answer. I get so tired of people slamming something on technical grounds that they haven't even tried. I understand the philosophical argument but like you am really curious as to the physical difference in ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJGreenfield View Post
    Is there anyone who has ridden the 'real thing' and also one of the China copy Dogma frames and can comment on the difference? Is it a very different ride? I know they can look almost identical, but so does a chocolate and a **** sandwich until you taste it. Really curious to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJGreenfield View Post
    Is there anyone who has ridden the 'real thing' and also one of the China copy Dogma frames and can comment on the difference? Is it a very different ride? I know they can look almost identical, but so does a chocolate and a **** sandwich until you taste it. Really curious to know.
    Real Pinarello's are made in China too. The Italian govt allows a very loose definition of Made in Italy on purpose. They don't mind if it deceives buyers. Its their intent. So any minor amount of finishing work, painting etc, qualified the product for a made in Italy label.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by darwinosx View Post
    Real Pinarello's are made in China too. The Italian govt allows a very loose definition of Made in Italy on purpose. They don't mind if it deceives buyers. Its their intent. So any minor amount of finishing work, painting etc, qualified the product for a made in Italy label.
    Taiwan is not china.

    Get your facts straight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darwinosx View Post
    The Italian govt allows a very loose definition of Made in Italy on purpose. They don't mind if it deceives buyers. Its their intent.
    It's not the Italian Govt which formulated those rules, it's the EU. From the EU rules:
    When two or more countries are involved in the production of a good, the origin of the good must be determined in accordance with Article 24 of Council Regulation No 2913/92 (CC).
    Articles 24 CC states: "Goods whose production involved more than one country shall be deemed to originate in the country where they underwent their last, substantial, economically justified processing or working in an undertaking equipped for that purpose and resulting in the manufacture of a new product or representing an important stage of manufacture".
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    Taiwan is not china.

    Get your facts straight.
    Although you're right I've been told by a source that more of the large name companies are moving their operations to China. Taiwan's manufacturing and QC is superior, however the cost to manufacture is growing. The much cheaper labor in China is very enticing.

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    The idea that China is lagging Taiwan with regard to technology and/or quality, is a good 5+ years out dated.

    Bike frames are NOT technologically advanced, although we like to think so, and the industry tells us so.

    I have not ridden a "fake" Pinarello, but I suspect it NOT to be much different than the "orig" Pinarello.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    Taiwan is not china.

    Get your facts straight.
    Awww did I make you feel bad? Will it help your hurt feelings if I explain to you that I am well aware of the difference? Better now?
    How about if I tell you there are carbon bikes made in mainland china? All better now?


    Poor thing. Oh wait, I bet you have an "Italian made" Pinarello and like to brag about it? That would explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    It's not the Italian Govt which formulated those rules, it's the EU. From the EU rules:
    Potato potatah, Lets see is Italy a member of the EU? Yes. Would the EU say this if Italy did not OK it? No.

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    Thanks!

    Few people know to make the distinction.

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    I would really hope that the real Pinarello would be vastly superior and look forward to meeting Fausto who I'm sure would tell me the same.
    With people like Peter P. around, I am done posting on this website. Mean people have driven me off after 9 plus years. Good luck newbies beware.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by darwinosx View Post
    Awww did I make you feel bad? Will it help your hurt feelings if I explain to you that I am well aware of the difference? Better now?
    How about if I tell you there are carbon bikes made in mainland china? All better now?


    Poor thing. Oh wait, I bet you have an "Italian made" Pinarello and like to brag about it? That would explain it.
    Yep. I ride an italian made Pinarello, and that's why I'm disgusted by counterfeiters.

    No, I'm disgusted by counterfeiters because they are one of the lowest life forms on the planet. If you're so desperate to own an exclusive item that you'll go and buy counterfeit to get it, you're nothing more than a sad, pathetic social climbing excuse of a consumer.

    If you're not smart enough to research where a frame is made before you open your ignorant mouth, don't get yourself all worked up about it. You've nobody to blame but yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    Yep. I ride an italian made Pinarello...
    Some people would rather save money by having their frame painted by Yun Fat instead of Mario. Underneatht the paint they are still just frames made in China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailrunner68 View Post
    Some people would rather save money by having their frame painted by Yun Fat instead of Mario. Underneatht the paint they are still just frames made in China.
    That was sarcasm. I guess the wasn't enough.

    My carbon frame was built in Look's Tunisia factory.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigrider View Post
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  15. #15
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    trying to get this back on track.

    This thread seems to have gotten a bit off track. The OP and at least me expressed interest in the physical or ride differences between an original or real Pinarello and a "fake" Pinarello, if I may be so blunt. Not caring where each was actually built as I'm sure both are made in mainland China or Taiwan, maybe the same plant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooben View Post
    I would really hope that the real Pinarello would be vastly superior and look forward to meeting Fausto who I'm sure would tell me the same.
    One woud hope but I seriously doubt anyone, and I mean ANYONE, would be able to tell the difference. Where it might differ is in the long-term durability where the amount of resin might be more in the fake Pin, or the curing process may been skimped. But I'm no expert on all this stuff. Just throwing out a couple "what ifs".
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    To address the OP, I have ridden both a "Chinarello" and a real Pinarello Dogma Sky. To tell you the truth, I found differences in ride qualities to be minimal and I doubt that many people , if blindfolded, could tell them apart.


    There was another thread I believe in the Pinarello subforum which documented all the differences between the Chinarellos and Pinarellos.Those differences have changed a bit since now the replicas are being made out of an updated mold that addresses many (but not all) of the physical differences

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    Quote Originally Posted by darwinosx View Post
    Potato potatah, Lets see is Italy a member of the EU? Yes. Would the EU say this if Italy did not OK it? No.
    The fact is that these are EU rules and not Italian rules, and all the EU countries had to sign off on them and they all have to abide by the rules which in the case of bikes would apply to Made in Germany, made in Belgium, etc. etc. even if they were made elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    My carbon frame was built in Look's Tunisia factory.
    So let me get this straight. Your Tunisian made frame is not as good as a frame made and painted in Italy. It is better than one made in China and painted in Italy, and it is much better than one made in the same factory and painted in China. Got you.

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    $4000 for a bike and they can't get a real Italian to make it? Fascinating. Is that why the bikes look like they melted in a microwave?

    Who is selling the china copies? Are they being marked the same and sold through the same dealers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailrunner68 View Post
    So let me get this straight. Your Tunisian made frame is not as good as a frame made and painted in Italy. It is better than one made in China and painted in Italy, and it is much better than one made in the same factory and painted in China. Got you.
    thats not what he said.

    he is against counterfeits. rightfully so.
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  22. #22
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    Aren't the differences in the layup and type of Carbon used?

    It's awfully foolish to think that just because they look identical, they're going to ride identical. It's insulting to have the approach that "just because" it's a bike, it's some sort of primitive thing that should be obtained as cheap as possible. If that's truly the case, why not just buy a cheap brand instead of trying to go for a fake?
    It's even worse to assume they are one and the same item, and that it's all one big conspiracy to cheat Freds out of their money.
    It's all made in one giant Factory in China, the same one that produced Obama's birth certificate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobilesleepy View Post
    Aren't the differences in the layup and type of Carbon used?

    It's awfully foolish to think that just because they look identical, they're going to ride identical. It's insulting to have the approach that "just because" it's a bike, it's some sort of primitive thing that should be obtained as cheap as possible. If that's truly the case, why not just buy a cheap brand instead of trying to go for a fake?
    It's even worse to assume they are one and the same item, and that it's all one big conspiracy to cheat Freds out of their money.
    It's all made in one giant Factory in China, the same one that produced Obama's birth certificate!
    Yes, yes, yes..........logic would bring us to that conclusion, however the whole point of this thread is to find someone out there who has actually ridden both and can comment from personal experience. There are plenty of other threads out there where you can comment on your opinion, argue over the ethics etc. I'm trying to get some 'factual' feedback.
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  24. #24
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    Well, think of the cheapest, crap feeling crabon frame you've ever ridden and imagine it with the wavy fork and stays of the Pinarello.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobilesleepy View Post
    Well, think of the cheapest, crap feeling crabon frame you've ever ridden and imagine it with the wavy fork and stays of the Pinarello.

    But you are still commenting on opinion, not from actually riding both. Or have you?
    A bore is a fellow who persists in talking about himself when you want to talk about yourself.

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