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  1. #1
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    Stack vs reach: please help me size

    I’m currently riding Giant Defy Advanced M 50.0, stack 566 reach 377 stem 8 degrees 90mm flipped.

    Pinarello K8 S, what would be the correct size for me? Below is geometry.

    I’m confused because the geometry puts me at 515 for reach and between 540 an 550 for stack. Or am I looking at this all wrong? Please help!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Stack vs reach: please help me size-k8geom.jpg  

  2. #2
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    Yikes.

    What does a 90mm flipped stem mean? How much space is between the top of the headtube and the bottom of the stem? How many spacers? And is the stem pointing upwards?

    Your bike is a very short and tall bike with a very short stem and probably a very tall setup.

    That basically means all race bikes are off the table for you, none of them will fit.

    You can maybe try a BMC Granfondo, that's a very tall and short bike that can race and has raced in Paris Roubaix. Most anything if not everything from Pinarello is off the table, nothing is going to fit outside of maybe their most relaxed bike.


    I would look for a different bike. One that fits better. You're on the right track by using stack and reach but in the wrong ballpark all together in bike choice.
    use a torque wrench

  3. #3
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    Assuming your Defy fits the way you want a bike to fit, none of them is the correct size for you.

  4. #4
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    Wouldn't a 55, with a 80 or 75 stem be close?
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  5. #5
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    If you have maybe 10mm or less in spacer height and the stem is in the -8 degree orientation the 53 would work decently with an extra couple spacers or flipping the stem to +8.

  6. #6
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    When you say the stem is "flipped", I am assuming you mean it is pointed down, correct? If so, it sounds like you are taking your endurance geometry Giant Defy and trying to give it a more race-like position.

    Will the new bike fit? Nobody here can tell you that for sure without seeing you on the bike. There are too many variables in the picture. The only way you will find out is to find a shop that has the bike and test ride it.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  7. #7
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    Sorry, the stem is flipped up

  8. #8
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    Hello. Sorry for my English.

    I choose a new road bike for myself, because it seems to me that now it is very big for me.

    Now I'm riding the Simplon Nexio 55 size
    ett 555mm,
    reach 396mm,
    stack 555mm,
    stem 105mm (-6 angle),
    10mm spacer,
    seat tube 530,
    head tube 145
    But the KOPS method is not followed, my knee is behind the pedal.
    And me completely uncomfortable on this bike.
    My height is 183cm, weight 67kg, inseam 86cm. I have long arms and legs.

    Now I look closely at Pinarello Dogma 65.1 think 2 53 size,
    ett 545
    reach 386,
    stack 542
    stem 135mm ( i dont know angle)
    5mm spacer
    seat tube 545
    head tube 139
    But I'm afraid that the fall of the saddle-handlebar wheel will be simply huge, because the head tube is very low.
    But in theory, the knee should be in the right position on Pinarello. Or I'm wrong?...
    I just want to get compact position on road bike.


    Any help
    Thanks

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    Hello. Sorry for my English.

    I choose a new road bike for myself, because it seems to me that now it is very big for me.

    Now I'm riding the Simplon Nexio 55 size
    ett 555mm,
    reach 396mm,
    stack 555mm,
    stem 105mm (-6 angle),
    10mm spacer,
    seat tube 530,
    head tube 145
    But the KOPS method is not followed, my knee is behind the pedal.
    And me completely uncomfortable on this bike.
    My height is 183cm, weight 67kg, inseam 86cm. I have long arms and legs.

    Now I look closely at Pinarello Dogma 65.1 think 2 53 size,
    ett 545
    reach 386,
    stack 542
    stem 135mm ( i dont know angle)
    5mm spacer
    seat tube 545
    head tube 139
    But I'm afraid that the fall of the saddle-handlebar wheel will be simply huge, because the head tube is very low.
    But in theory, the knee should be in the right position on Pinarello. Or I'm wrong?...
    I just want to get compact position on road bike.


    Any help
    Thanks
    Hi and welcome Hamfri! Don't worry about your English. I'm pretty sure it's better than my "Dark Side of the Moon" language. At least that's where you posted in your profile that you are from.

    Seriously, I'll tell you what I tell everybody else. You need to take your bike to a shop and get professionally fitted. A good shop will put you and your bike on their trainer, watch you pedal and make adjustments to make your fit just right. I am amazed at how many people buy fancy expensive bikes, but don't want to spend money to get fit correctly. So spend a little money on a fit before you go throwing money at new bikes that may or may not fit. Nobody here in the internet can tell you by looking at geometry numbers whether they will work for you or not.

    A bike that fits will be more comfortable, you will be more efficient and you will want to ride more. I bike that doesn't fit will eventually hurt and you will stop riding.

    Good luck!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  10. #10
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    Thanks for the advice.
    But I'm afraid that in our city there is a limited choice of frames that could be chosen to fit. And there are no skilled masters in setting the position on the bike.
    So I asked for help here.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    Thanks for the advice.
    But I'm afraid that in our city there is a limited choice of frames that could be chosen to fit. And there are no skilled masters in setting the position on the bike.
    So I asked for help here.
    You can self fit to a very large extent. KOPS isn't necessary, but if you are going to be wildly different than KOPS it should be for a reason.

    The problem with your question is that you are using one bad fit (Simplon) to predict a good fit on a Dogma. That isn't going to work.

    Why don't you use basic tools like the .883 saddle height formula and KOPS to see if you can make yourself more comfortable on the Simplon before you invest in a different bike?


    As far as the two bikes go, why would you choose only 5mm of spacers on the Dogma when its stack is 13mm lower then your current bike? Why not use 20mm of spacers and make both bikes similar in stem height? (For instance?)

    Comfortable is the fastest position. You can modify a comfortable position to be more aerodynamic, but you can't start with aerodynamic and make it comfortable.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  12. #12
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    Why are you uncomfortable on your current bike?
    Where are you feeling discomfort?
    How Flexible are you and what kind of riding do you do? I would start new with this and see what they recommend.
    https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...e.jsp#measures

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    As far as the two bikes go, why would you choose only 5mm of spacers on the Dogma when its stack is 13mm lower then your current bike? Why not use 20mm of spacers and make both bikes similar in stem height? (For instance?)
    I can not use more spacers because steerer tube very short.
    I have fairly long arms that can withstand a drop of more than 12cm, but I want a shorter distance from the saddle to the stem. I need to bring my knees back to normal using the KOPS method.
    But my frame seems to be too long for me. In addition, seatpost has an offset 20 or 25mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    Why are you uncomfortable on your current bike?
    Where are you feeling discomfort?
    How Flexible are you and what kind of riding do you do? I would start new with this and see what they recommend.
    https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...e.jsp#measures
    My current drop of the saddle-handlebar is 11.5 cm.
    Saddle height - 77cm (BB centre -> top of saddle).

    The problem is that with intensive cycling I automatically move forward, and I sit not on the sciatic bones, but on the soft tissues of the inguinal region. It causes numbness, pain.
    I think the saddle shift all the way forward would partially solve my problem, but on my bike it's impossible. That's why I thought about the shorter frame. Pinarello was just on sale, so I thought about it.

    I would not say i very flexible, but I have long arms that can withstand a 12cm drop saddle-handlebar.
    Should I buy Pinarello? Will the Pinarello frame be shorter than my current frame?

    p.s.
    This calculator does not display my actual values, advising ETT 560+. These are insanely large frames.

  14. #14
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    So this must be a used Pinarello with short cut steerer.


    Moving your saddle far forward with rotate you pelvis forward and down, causing more numbness. KOPS is a good forward limit to where your pelvis is still at a natural angle. 25mm set back seat posts generally work with KOPS.

    What you can "withstand" is rather immaterial since you say you aren't comfortable and get pain and numbness - that isn't withstanding anything.


    It is impossible to say if the Pinarello could be comfortable because you don't know what comfortable is. If you did have a comfortable position to start we could at least guess what might also work. Overall it sounds like the Pinarello is too low, unless you want to use an angled stem to get the bars up higher.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    It is impossible to say if the Pinarello could be comfortable because you don't know what comfortable is. If you did have a comfortable position to start we could at least guess what might also work. Overall it sounds like the Pinarello is too low, unless you want to use an angled stem to get the bars up higher.
    If I show an old photo of my position on the bike, can you help me understand the cause of my problems?

    At first the saddle seems to me very comfortable, but it only happens in the first 10 minutes. Then the pain begins.

    Last edited by Hamfri; 02-01-2018 at 05:02 AM.

  16. #16
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    I think your position is wrong on that bike. You are very stretched out for a 183cm guy on a 55cm frame with a 105mm stem.You do have a rather short torso. How far back is the saddle on the rails? You should be able to get comfortable on that bike. I would like to see a photo of the bike without a rider. When did you buy this bike? What were you riding before and is your position different from that bike very much? I'd like to see you move the saddle forward so you are just a little forward of KOPS. Moving forward under exertion is normal. Inexperienced riders find it uncomfortable at first. I think you have too much weight bearing on the seat, move forward on the saddle rails and let you arms take some of the load off. What is the ST angle on the Nexio? I saw some triathlon setups so I am thinking it's a little steeper than some other road frames. Final question, who fitted you to this bike when you bought it?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    I think your position is wrong on that bike. You are very stretched out for a 183cm guy on a 55cm frame with a 105mm stem.You do have a rather short torso. How far back is the saddle on the rails? You should be able to get comfortable on that bike. I would like to see a photo of the bike without a rider. When did you buy this bike? What were you riding before and is your position different from that bike very much? I'd like to see you move the saddle forward so you are just a little forward of KOPS. Moving forward under exertion is normal. Inexperienced riders find it uncomfortable at first. I think you have too much weight bearing on the seat, move forward on the saddle rails and let you arms take some of the load off. What is the ST angle on the Nexio? I saw some triathlon setups so I am thinking it's a little steeper than some other road frames. Final question, who fitted you to this bike when you bought it?
    Thank you very much!

    In this photo, the saddle rails are in the middle of the clamps.
    And I can not move the saddle much forward. The reason is this.

    The reason why I intend to sell my Simplon Nexio is not only the impossibility (as I think) of sitting right position, but also that the saddle slides in the seatpost. Exactly the same problem exists in Cervelo S5:
    https://forums.cervelo.com/forums/p/10764/104524.aspx
    That's why I can not move the saddle much forward, because this will change the position of the saddle at the pressure of my weight...
    I cleaned the clamping surface and the rails from the dust on my Specialized Phenom , also cleared the clamping hole of seatpost pin and put the Finish Line Fiber Grip Carbon inside the seatpost clamping hole. The effect was, but it was short-lived, and still on the next pit I collapsed down with the saddle.
    I understand that I just need to move the saddle forward, but I can not do it for the reason indicated above.
    Honestly, when I bought this bike, I did not think that its geometry would be SO different from the endurance geometry. I bought it a year ago, and rode not so much, constantly being in search of the best position on the bike.
    I bought this bike in the hope that it will be with me as long as possible, but it seems I was wrong ...

    If I purposefully want to change the bike, can I go with ETT 540-545?

    p.s. picture without a rider
    Last edited by Hamfri; 02-01-2018 at 06:22 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    Thank you very much!

    In this photo, the saddle rails are in the middle of the clamps.
    And I can not move the saddle much forward. The reason is this.

    The reason why I intend to sell my Simplon Nexio is not only the impossibility (as I think) of sitting right position, but also that the saddle slides in the seatpost. Exactly the same problem exists in Cervelo S5:
    https://forums.cervelo.com/forums/p/10764/104524.aspx
    That's why I can not move the saddle much forward, because this will change the position of the saddle at the pressure of my weight...
    I cleaned the clamping surface and the rails from the dust on my Specialized Phenom , also cleared the clamping hole of seatpost pin and put the Finish Line Fiber Grip Carbon inside the seatpost clamping hole. The effect was, but it was short-lived, and still on the next pit I collapsed down with the saddle.
    I understand that I just need to move the saddle forward, but I can not do it for the reason indicated above.
    Honestly, when I bought this bike, I did not think that its geometry would be SO different from the endurance geometry. I bought it a year ago, and rode not so much, constantly being in search of the best position on the bike.
    I bought this bike in the hope that it will be with me as long as possible, but it seems I was wrong ...

    If I purposefully want to change the bike, can I go with ETT 540-545?

    p.s. picture without a rider
    The main thing I'm seeing is that your handlebars appear too low, not too far forward. Moving up or closer would both help, but you do appear to be limited by your torso length and are reaching to get to the bars.


    I don't understand why your post slipping down into the frame prevents you from adjusting the saddle horizontally. Those two adjustments have little to do with each other. I don't know if your saddle needs to come forward or not, but I don't understand why you can't move it forward. If you are too far back, that is a reason you can't bend over easily - as you move the saddle forward you gain more ability to lean over. So please up your saddle forward to KOPS before you do anything else.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    The main thing I'm seeing is that your handlebars appear too low, not too far forward. Moving up or closer would both help, but you do appear to be limited by your torso length and are reaching to get to the bars.


    I don't understand why your post slipping down into the frame prevents you from adjusting the saddle horizontally. Those two adjustments have little to do with each other. I don't know if your saddle needs to come forward or not, but I don't understand why you can't move it forward. If you are too far back, that is a reason you can't bend over easily - as you move the saddle forward you gain more ability to lean over. So please up your saddle forward to KOPS before you do anything else.

    The saddle does not slide horizontally, but vertically. Therefore, if I move the saddle forward, it seems to me that the lever will be larger - and the saddle will collapse even faster. But I'll still try to push it forward.
    And if it does not work - then I'll look for the frame shorter.
    Thanks!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    The saddle does not slide horizontally, but vertically. Therefore, if I move the saddle forward, it seems to me that the lever will be larger - and the saddle will collapse even faster. But I'll still try to push it forward.
    And if it does not work - then I'll look for the frame shorter.
    Thanks!
    Okay, you are not talking about the right part of the bicycle. The seat post moves vertically. The saddle can be moved on horizontal rails, like this:

    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  21. #21
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    I don't think you need to change your bike. You don't need a shorter frame! I think you are trying to get an aero position on an aero bike, (very short head tube) but your body is not ready to hold an aero position for long periods. Try this. Move your saddle forward 1cm, check your KOPS position try and get it on KOPS or a little forward of KOPS. On intense efforts hold on to the bars next to the stem, suck your stomach in and get your back straight bend your elbows and relax your upper body.
    BUT............

    Off the bike you will need to increase your flexibility and get stronger abdominal muscles. === Planks

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    I don't think you need to change your bike. You don't need a shorter frame!
    Thanks!!!

    Today I moved the saddle forward 1 cm and ride an hour.
    The first 20 minutes i ride with a power of 80-100 watts, I thought that everything was fine. But as soon as I went with a power of 200+ watts, I again tried to move forward. And again started to go numb where it should not.
    In addition, my hands pressed on the handlebar, they were not relaxed. I did not know where to remove them, so that it would be comfortable.
    Perhaps, among other things, I needed to lower the saddle a little, tomorrow I will check this theory.
    But it seems to me that I need a shorter frame ... everything comes down to this.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    Thanks!!!

    Today I moved the saddle forward 1 cm and ride an hour.
    The first 20 minutes i ride with a power of 80-100 watts, I thought that everything was fine. But as soon as I went with a power of 200+ watts, I again tried to move forward. And again started to go numb where it should not.
    In addition, my hands pressed on the handlebar, they were not relaxed. I did not know where to remove them, so that it would be comfortable.
    Perhaps, among other things, I needed to lower the saddle a little, tomorrow I will check this theory.
    But it seems to me that I need a shorter frame ... everything comes down to this.
    If you are sliding forward, you probably need to shorten your reach. Have you tried a shorter stem? And is your saddle level, pointed nose up, or pointed nose down?

    As far as going numb, this is not OK! And this may very well be a separate issue. I went through at least a dozen saddles before I found one that works for me. I finally found this one:

    https://selleanatomica.com/collections/x-series

    Comfortable right out of the box. Doesn't require a break-in like a Brooks saddle. Expensive, but well worth it. All my numbness and sores are gone!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    If you are sliding forward, you probably need to shorten your reach. Have you tried a shorter stem? And is your saddle level, pointed nose up, or pointed nose down?

    As far as going numb, this is not OK! And this may very well be a separate issue. I went through at least a dozen saddles before I found one that works for me. I finally found this one:

    https://selleanatomica.com/collections/x-series

    Comfortable right out of the box. Doesn't require a break-in like a Brooks saddle. Expensive, but well worth it. All my numbness and sores are gone!
    Now I have a saddle Fizik Antares VS on my bicycle
    The nose is long, but I would not say it's sharp.

    I did not try a shorter stem, because now I have a stem is 105mm. It's short ... and I'm afraid to imagine how ungovernable a bicycle will be with stem 80-90mm...

    The saddle is very similar to Brooks. Retro style. But I do not like this.
    I'll have to find a suitable saddle ...

    At Pinarello, on 1 cm, there is less reach. Maybe this will help me. Or maybe not. I do not know.
    But I know for sure that I can not find the right position on my bike.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    Now I have a saddle Fizik Antares VS on my bicycle
    The nose is long, but I would not say it's sharp.
    There is no cutout on this one. Not to mention it looks like it's higher in the middle. The man parts don't like that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamfri View Post
    I did not try a shorter stem, because now I have a stem is 105mm. It's short ... and I'm afraid to imagine how ungovernable a bicycle will be with stem 80-90mm...
    Don't fear this. You may notice a little difference in handling, but you may not. Unless you do really stupid stuff, you won't have a problem.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



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