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  1. #1
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    Ti - Straight gauge v Butted

    Hello all,

    I am considering a new frame to replace the carbon bike. I plan to use the bike for fast club rides, and power based turbo sessions. I have a Seven Axiom S with full fenders which I use in the winter and the bike has performed superbly, and some of the fastest group rides last year were on that bike.

    My question would be about a suitable Ti frame to replace carbon. I like the Axiom S and wondered whether a custom made Axiom S would be a better investment than the more expensive Axiom SL, which has butted tubes. I would also have the same query in respect of the difference between the Moots CR and the RSL, and the Mosaic RT2 and the RT1.

    it seems that the huge price increase is down to the butted v straight gauge tubes. Which is better for a 6-2 tall rider, weighing 180 pounds? CAN THE PRICE HIKE BE JUSTIFIED OR WOULD THE STRAIGHT GAUGE ALTERNATIVES BE JUST AS GOOD WITH A HIGH END FORK AND 44 MM HEADTUBE?

    All feedback gratefully received.

    Regards

    Jamie

  2. #2
    A wheelist
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    Five years ago I ordered a custom Ti Kish and I asked Jim what the difference was between his butted and plain gauge tubing frames. His honest answer was "About 4 ounces and $300". Of course he could have gone on for 1/2 an e-mail page about the sublime (and unmeasurable) differences but he didn't. I liked that.
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  3. #3
    gazing from the shadows
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    His honest answer was "About 4 ounces and $300".
    Yep.

    For more detail, if desired, Zinn talked about this question here covering differences in materials: Technical Q&A with Lennard Zinn - Keeping it simple | VeloNews.com See the third Q&A.
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  4. #4
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    I'm not clear why you want to buy what you already have? Can't you just take the fenders off the S you have and change tires if applicable?

    Anyway, generally speaking it's just weight. But to split hairs there is no better and worse just different. If you're a heavy crit rider straight would be the better choice. If you want as plush as possible butting choices will allow the builder to tune in more of that. But that's only applies at the extremes. For a normal weight weekend warrior looking for a normal bike it just doesn't matter because normal bikes can be achieved with either.

    Ask Seven. I did so I know they'll give you an honest very well informed answer and they won't try to up sell. They'll recommend what they think is the better choice regardless of price.

  5. #5
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    I've had both. A custom lynskey butted r240 and a straight gauge lynskey peloton . I weigh 185- 195 and the mere mortal rider that I am could not tell the difference at all. If fact, I sold the r240 and bought a used steel volagi viaje I'm using as my winter/threat of rain bike and kept the peloton for summer good weather riding that I really like and thought rode smoother to me.

  6. #6
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    Consider a steel bike.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Five years ago I ordered a custom Ti Kish and I asked Jim what the difference was between his butted and plain gauge tubing frames. His honest answer was "About 4 ounces and $300". Of course he could have gone on for 1/2 an e-mail page about the sublime (and unmeasurable) differences but he didn't. I liked that.
    I had the same question for Jim when I was purchasing a new cross bike from him. I went with straight gauge.


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  8. #8
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    Whats wrong with the carbon bike?

  9. #9
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    Steve Potts doesn't do butted. Says there are very very few benefits if any for Ti

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAM1E View Post
    Moots CR and the RSL
    There is a pretty big difference between those two frames and it's not just butted tubing. If you are comparing apples to apples with the same geo and basic tubing shapes butted will just make the frame a tad lighter. I'd figure out what you want the bike to ride like and what you want to spend and go from there.

  11. #11
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    a couple ounces and some stiffness. Titanium can produce a really nice frame. Not necessarily superior to Carbon but does potentially result in some really interesting ride qualities.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Five years ago I ordered a custom Ti Kish and I asked Jim what the difference was between his butted and plain gauge tubing frames. His honest answer was "About 4 ounces and $300". Of course he could have gone on for 1/2 an e-mail page about the sublime (and unmeasurable) differences but he didn't. I liked that.
    Tom Kellogg has a similarly straight-forward description of the difference between straight and butted tubes somewhere on the Spectrum website, essentially saying that there is no perceptible difference in ride quality...the butted frame will simply be lighter.

    And more expensive.

  13. #13
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    Carl Strong, same thoughts as well. I wasn't at the cutting end of peletons so went with straight tubes, if the ounces mattered I'd give up chocolate, much cheaper.

  14. #14
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    Seven cycles claims a 7/10th of a pound weight reduction from going from straight tubing to an ultra-butted frame.

    Straight-tubing 3.3 pounds
    Double butted 3.1 pounds
    Ultra-butted 2.6 pounds

    Once I see a metal frame approaching 2.2 pounds it's getting very near carbon territory. Man carbon frames still come in at 950-1050 grams which is about two pounds. At that point the choice is not about weight but about how the various frames feel and respond. That bottle of water on the bike filled is about two pounds, dwarfing that 0.4 pound differential

    https://www.sevencycles.com/bikes.php

    Last edited by Trek_5200; 03-09-2017 at 01:32 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    a couple ounces and some stiffness. Titanium can produce a really nice frame. Not necessarily superior to Carbon but does potentially result in some really interesting ride qualities.
    Frame material alone has no bearing on ride quality.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
    Frame material alone has no bearing on ride quality.
    It isn't the most important factor, but frame material most certainly does affect ride quality, especially when you take into consideration the specific compromises that must be built into a frame to compensate for the particular properties of that frame material.

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