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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Once you get off of Mr. Vandermark's nuts, maybe you'll take the time to read your own comments and see the folley in them.

    Seven makes great frames, but that doesn't mean Mr. Vandermark isn't vulnerable to using the same business tactics that everyone else does - ie berating the methods of others because they choose not to use them. Maybe the folks at Seven simply aren't comfortable working with 6/4 to make tubes. There's no shame in that. But your assertion that Mr. Vandermark has the final word on 6/4 tubes is downright ridiculous. The folks at Litespeed know a thing or two about titanium, and using 6/4 tubes.
    yeah, you must be right. Rob and every other respected builder in the industry is attacking your bike because they couldn't do that and had the foresight to spread the information before anyone of their competitors were actually doing it (but easily could have if they thought it made and sense). Litespeed has the final word and the rest of the industry and science is bunk.

    Litespeed knows better, got it. Funny the guy people that gave Lightspeed it's name in more ways than one (Lynskey) never figured that out either.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post

    Any jerk with a titanium tubes and a torch can make a bike frame. What you want is a manufacturer with experience and resources. What kind of resources? Money for computers to aid with design, machinery to shape and weld tubes, etc etc. Machinery to test their designs, and so on. That means you want a company that's been making ti frames for a long time. That means Litespeed and Seven Cycles. These other 'boutique' manufacturers simply don't have the resources to make the kinds of products Litespeed can.
    FFS, you sound like someone trying to rationalise a purchase.
    Seems like you are preeminently qualified to weld your own frames, have at it.
    Here is a question to consider, how much welding experience did the jerk with the torch welding your frame have? Isn't the best predictor of a frames success the welder's skill?
    weight is a factor but 99% of buyers could save more weight by skipping the cup cakes at their mid ride cafe stops.
    I have never lost a race because of 150 grams of extra frame material. YMMV.

    OP, I'd go with the builder that appeals best to your sensibilities.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Titanium : Spectrum, Firefly or Steve Potts?-litespeed-ghisallo-sn-89981-john-barton-complete-bike.jpg   Titanium : Spectrum, Firefly or Steve Potts?-litespeed-ghisallo-sn-89981-john-barton-defect-rh.jpg  

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    yeah, you must be right. Rob and every other respected builder in the industry is attacking your bike because they couldn't do that and had the foresight to spread the information before anyone of their competitors were actually doing it (but easily could have if they thought it made and sense). Litespeed has the final word and the rest of the industry and science is bunk.

    Litespeed knows better, got it. Funny the guy people that gave Lightspeed it's name in more ways than one (Lynskey) never figured that out either.
    Bill Gates started Microsoft and designed MS DOS, but I can assure you he had absolutely nothing to do with writing the most recent MS Office suite.

    Litespeed was started in 1986 and the Lynskey family sold it in 1999, after thirteen years of ownership - well under half of the company's thirty-one year lifespan. I'd say that eighteen years is lot of time for Litespeed to develop after they were no longer owned by the Lynskey family.

    Did you know that Litespeed built the titanium frame for one of NASA's Mars rovers? Curiosity, I believe it's named. Litespeed also developed titanium tubing for this machine, which cost billions to make. You think NASA would trust that kind of thing to some mom-and-pop operation that welded titanium frames? That's not something you can fake or trump-up. That's a serious accomplishment for a bike company.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Bill Gates started Microsoft and designed MS DOS, but I can assure you he had absolutely nothing to do with writing the most recent MS Office suite.

    Litespeed was started in 1986 and the Lynskey family sold it in 1999, after thirteen years of ownership - well under half of the company's thirty-one year lifespan. I'd say that eighteen years is lot of time for Litespeed to develop after they were no longer owned by the Lynskey family.

    Did you know that Litespeed built the titanium frame for one of NASA's Mars rovers? Curiosity, I believe it's named. Litespeed also developed titanium tubing for this machine, which cost billions to make. You think NASA would trust that kind of thing to some mom-and-pop operation that welded titanium frames? That's not something you can fake or trump-up. That's a serious accomplishment for a bike company.
    OK guys, we need to quit feeding the troll. We keep slapping him down and he just won't stop. He's trying to rationalize blowing $4000 on a crappy Litespeed frame. Litespeed didn't build a frame for NASA, David Lynskey did when he owned a bike company called Litespeed. Before he started the bicycle company, he was in the business of titanium fabrication for the defense industry. In another thread where the Wasp declares that Lynskey could never build a frame like the T1sl, Kerry Irons summed it up well:

    This may well be what you think, but that doesn't make it true. A little history might be in order: Litespeed was founded by the Lynskey family, and when they sold it, they signed a 5 year non-compete agreement. But Lynskey are the Ti experts, and when those 5 years expired, they re-entered the bike business with all of that expertise intact. You are simply wrong/misinformed.

    Oh, and BTW, Bill Gates bought MS DOS for $50k. He had nothing to do with creating it.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    OK guys, we need to quit feeding the troll. We keep slapping him down and he just won't stop. He's trying to rationalize blowing $4000 on a crappy Litespeed frame. Litespeed didn't build a frame for NASA, David Lynskey did when he owned a bike company called Litespeed. Before he started the bicycle company, he was in the business of titanium fabrication for the defense industry. In another thread where the Wasp declares that Lynskey could never build a frame like the T1sl, Kerry Irons summed it up well:

    This may well be what you think, but that doesn't make it true. A little history might be in order: Litespeed was founded by the Lynskey family, and when they sold it, they signed a 5 year non-compete agreement. But Lynskey are the Ti experts, and when those 5 years expired, they re-entered the bike business with all of that expertise intact. You are simply wrong/misinformed.

    Oh, and BTW, Bill Gates bought MS DOS for $50k. He had nothing to do with creating it.
    Grow up, pal.

    You shouldn't just throw the word "troll" around every time you disagree with someone's opinion. This is a discussion - a debate - about titanium frame manufacturers. That's what these forums are for: among other things, having idle discussions and even disagreements about various topics.

    Just FYI, the Curiosity rover was launched in 2011, after seven years of development. A little grade-school math will tell you that development (and possibly fabrication) began at the earliest in 2004, roughly five years after Lynskey left Litespeed.

    So it sounds to me as though Litespeed had been doing some pretty good stuff with titanium after being sold.

  6. #56
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    I know the OP has chosen Kish already. Good for you, I'd be ridiculously excited.

    To be fair I've never built a custom frame, but I've had a custom guitar built. I think the most crucial skills are the same in both cases.

    1) Being able to consult with & pull the customers wants and needs out of them. As Jay mentioned, being able to articulate to them can be difficult. Having someone skilled at pulling those answers out of you is important.

    2) being able to design the proper solution based on the above. Large brands have shown us that a few standard sizes can work for lots of people, But knowing what is better or even best for a specific situation is why anyone of us would want to go custom.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnardone View Post
    I know the OP has chosen Kish already. Good for you, I'd be ridiculously excited.

    To be fair I've never built a custom frame, but I've had a custom guitar built. I think the most crucial skills are the same in both cases.

    1) Being able to consult with & pull the customers wants and needs out of them. As Jay mentioned, being able to articulate to them can be difficult. Having someone skilled at pulling those answers out of you is important.

    2) being able to design the proper solution based on the above. Large brands have shown us that a few standard sizes can work for lots of people, But knowing what is better or even best for a specific situation is why anyone of us would want to go custom.
    No argument there. A custom bike is pretty-much guaranteed to meet your needs precisely. And indeed, I considered going with Seven rather than Litespeed (but in the end, liked Litespeed's product better). To me, there is absolutely no reason to buy from a small "boutique" builder unless all really want want is to ride a brand that only a few people know, much less own. To say that they make a better product than Litespeed or Seven flies in the face of common sense.

  8. #58
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    You won't hear me say better. Kish just melded with me personally over Firefly. I'm confident either would deliver the same level of satisfaction and long term quality.

    For me, if not custom them I'd just go protect 1 trek.

    I'm pretty proportional 5 9.75 dead on. Long arms...6ft 1 span...thick ... and my back is wide. Most 56 a tad long and the 54 I try are just too short. 55 Domane would probably be a jackpot.

    Even in mtb world I'm in between size guy. From Santa Cruz to Trek to Specialized and Pivot.

    Custom long term bike is the way to go.

    I run 3 kids mostly alone. They are 6yr girl 9 yr boy and 11 yr boy. Heavy in sports. I'm blessed my boys are good enough for elite baseball and basketball teams...so I don't get the time I want to ride. I went road bike to make me a better mtb bike guy. And now I like it. I can ride at 430am before work. So this is a worthwhile investment....to me.

    Fat bike for winter and I should be good to go.
    Last edited by biscut; 08-10-2017 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Elaborating

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    These small boutique frame builders may do their work meticulously, but you have to ask yourself: how can their product be any better than one built by a larger company with a longer history?

    Take Trek or Giant, for example. They have more money to plug into research and product testing and development than some small operation like Kish does. If they wanted to evaluate new titanium alloys, they could. Develop new welding techniques, they could do that too. And so on and so forth. The smaller the operation, the less money there is for product development. That's how it is in any industry.

    Don't assume that a smaller operation that makes fewer products makes a better product. Not even remotely. The only way this might be the case is larger manufacturers rely on automation and volume with little devoted to quality control. But for a product like a titanium frame that must be hand welded, a larger builder is likely going to make a better product.
    I get your premise and to a certain degree you are correct. Where it fails is in that there is such a small market for Ti that Trek could give 2 shits. They are 100% invested Into carbon and you won't see that change for some time. They have it dialed in. Fare few if anyone does carbon better than trek, specialized, Santa Cruz, And add a few more. That is engineering ant market power.

    Not enough money in Ti for these guys to touch that market. So these smaller guys, actual craftsman, Are the experts.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    No argument there. A custom bike is pretty-much guaranteed to meet your needs precisely. And indeed, I considered going with Seven rather than Litespeed (but in the end, liked Litespeed's product better). To me, there is absolutely no reason to buy from a small "boutique" builder unless all really want want is to ride a brand that only a few people know, much less own. To say that they make a better product than Litespeed or Seven flies in the face of common sense.
    First off being custom makes them better than lightspeed right off the bat for a good amount of people. Fit and handling according to desires are by far what makes a bike good as compared to any fancy welding techniques or whatever.

    Second off all the likes of Spectrum (two people) and Firefly (three people) most certainly make Ti bikes as good as anyone. Yes, they don't have the resources to do a lot of things with tubes themselves but they certainly know how to pick up a phone and order tubes from someone who does. What do you expect a company owning their own titanium mine and doing everything from mining on makes them better?

    The value of a builder is their bike design ability first and welding too. I'm pretty sure a builders having a piece of titanium they made on Mars isn't going to do much for my bike fit and handling.

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