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  1. #1
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    welded Reynolds 631 Vs. lugged Tange Prestige

    I just picked up a used 1993 Novara frame made from lugged Tange Prestige tubing. It was a good enough price and it is hard to find used frames/bikes in my size, 50cm. I have most of the parts I need to build it but I am still shopping for a few such as a wheelset. Today I see a used 2002 Jamis Quest for sale with a Reynalds 631 frame in my size. The cost really isnít a big deal. If I bought the Jamis I could sell all the parts I have. If I build up my frame it will all cost about the same as the Jamis.
    My big question is if the two frames are much different in quality or if one steel is better then the other. Is one considered inherently better than the other or are they essentially identical? I know it is a strange question, but any opinions would be welcome.

  2. #2
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    Prestige and 631 are probably about equivalent higher end tubesets, but Prestige is a standard gauge tubeset, while the 631 Jamis is likely to be oversized for additional stiffness and possibly lighter weight.

    In a 50cm, any frame is going to be stiff enough and pretty light. I would personally choose a more classic lugged frame over blah tig welds. Both frames would be worthwhile, but I like the one you already have more.

  3. #3
    Big is relative
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    The Tange and 631 will be similar rides. Likely the rear triangles on both bikes are made of 4130 chromoly. Typically the decal refers to the three tubes that make up the main triangle. Go with the newer frame if it's in better shape since it's less likely to have internal rust and has experienced nine fewer winters.
    Retired sailor

  4. #4
    old school drop out
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    In '93 Prestige was very high-end tubing. It was the top of the line from Tange beginning with it's introduction in '87 until the mid-90s. The current "Tange Prestige" (the name is still used) is not the same tube set.

    How the frames fit you is more important than the material however.

  5. #5
    T K
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    I'd like to piggyback off this thread if I may. I'm interested in getting a steel bike but just don't know much about them. Could anyone direct me to some good reading or just hip me to all the different tubes and numbers and what they mean. What to look for in a frame. I see plenty of cheaper steel bikes like Bianchi or more expensive Colnagos. Whats the diff. Thanks.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by T K
    I'd like to piggyback off this thread if I may. I'm interested in getting a steel bike but just don't know much about them. Could anyone direct me to some good reading or just hip me to all the different tubes and numbers and what they mean. What to look for in a frame. I see plenty of cheaper steel bikes like Bianchi or more expensive Colnagos. Whats the diff. Thanks.
    Yikes, that's a tall order from zero. Steel frames run the gamout from sub 3 pound S3 frames to tubesets that have been popular for 30 years. It is available as formed, heat treated, heat treatable, air hardening. Straight, butted, shaped, internally reinforced. Welded, fillet brazed, lugged, glued.

    I think you need to focus on a type then start asking questions. Spectrum cycles has a good (if biased) materials faq that you might start with.

  7. #7
    Beetpull DeLite
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    I have an '03 Jamis Ventura that has Reynolds 520 and love it. I do remember that the Quest rode a little better but I couldn't afford it. If it's a good price, I wouldn't worry about getting the Jamis at all.

  8. #8
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    While the numbers may vary among steel brands, in actual use they're all so close in performance it's not worth discussing. Both Reynolds 631 and Tange Prestige are double butted tube sets to save weight and put the strength where it's needed, at the joints. And the lugged vs. TIG welded issue is not important either. Both tubesets are worthy of any high end frame.

    And T K, your question is a tall one. My suggestion is to start reading the information found on Carl Strong's web site: All you need to know about frame materials.

  9. #9
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    lugged prestige!

  10. #10
    T K
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    Thanks guys! Did not know my question was such a big one. Thought I'd get, "these are the higher grade tubes, these are the lower. Bianchi is made of the lower, Colnago the higher." Or something like that.
    Guess it's like one of my favorite sayings. I use it in the construction biz. Think it was from an NFL coach to a reporter. "You don't even know enough to know that you don't know."

  11. #11
    Larry Lackapants
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    I guess you just have to know the frame model you're looking at, regardless of manufacturer, and find out about the material it's been made of (or know the material straight off).

    here are some reynolds tubing charts
    http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/rey...-transfers.jpg
    http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/rey...bing-sizes.jpg

    here for columbus
    http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/col...umbuschart.htm

    here some very short info about dedacciai tubes
    http://www.terrafermacycles.com/tube...i_tubesets.htm

    in addition to the info already posted..

    good luck
    brblue
    "There are only 3 motivating factors that change human behavior; pain, fear or ambition. Which button do you want to press?" Steve Hogg

  12. #12
    old school drop out
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    Quote Originally Posted by T K
    Thanks guys! Did not know my question was such a big one. Thought I'd get, "these are the higher grade tubes, these are the lower. Bianchi is made of the lower, Colnago the higher." Or something like that.
    Guess it's like one of my favorite sayings. I use it in the construction biz. Think it was from an NFL coach to a reporter. "You don't even know enough to know that you don't know."
    TK, the short answer is that the Tange Prestige is the better tubing of the two choices. However that does not always translate into being the better bike.

  13. #13
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    the Tange Prestige is the frame i have so i guess i will stick with it. I guess it might cost a little more in the end but I will get to enjoy building it up just how i want it.

  14. #14
    T K
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    Thanks again guys. I went to Strong's site and did a lot of reading. Geez you could spend a whole day reading stuff over there. His frames look pretty sweet. I really want to experience that steel feeling I keep hearing about so I'm just trying to start somewhere. I just don't know if an "off the rack" Bianchi, Motobecane, Gunnar, ect would be the right choice for what I'm looking for. I know there is a lot that comes in to play of how a bike rides so custom to meet all of my criteria would be a good bet, but at twice or more the price. I'm in no hurry, I have a few perfectly good bikes now. Just want to do some leg work early. Thanks so much again.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by T K
    Thanks again guys. I went to Strong's site and did a lot of reading. Geez you could spend a whole day reading stuff over there. His frames look pretty sweet. I really want to experience that steel feeling I keep hearing about so I'm just trying to start somewhere. I just don't know if an "off the rack" Bianchi, Motobecane, Gunnar, ect would be the right choice for what I'm looking for. I know there is a lot that comes in to play of how a bike rides so custom to meet all of my criteria would be a good bet, but at twice or more the price. I'm in no hurry, I have a few perfectly good bikes now. Just want to do some leg work early. Thanks so much again.
    Custom, unless you have a big fit issue, is going to be wasted on anyone who doesn't have a very strong sense of what they are looking for. A Gunnar frame is going to provide world class ride because of the excellent tubeset and very well designed geometry. It is just a basic, prepackaged Waterford, and there aren't many bicycles made that could claim to be better than that.

  16. #16
    T K
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    Quote Originally Posted by rx-79g
    Custom, unless you have a big fit issue, is going to be wasted on anyone who doesn't have a very strong sense of what they are looking for. A Gunnar frame is going to provide world class ride because of the excellent tubeset and very well designed geometry. It is just a basic, prepackaged Waterford, and there aren't many bicycles made that could claim to be better than that.
    Now we are getting somewhere. I guess I'm not as much worried about fit as I am performance. Meaning I am basically looking for something that will feel racey like my race bike (caad 9) but just backed off a bit. If that makes sense. I don't want a century or relaxed bike but I'm not looking for a race bike. I have two of those already. Just want a nice everyday sporty but comfy "steel" ride with all of the modern accoutrement. Compact geo and not weighing a ton would be nice too.
    Last edited by T K; 11-30-2010 at 06:06 PM.

  17. #17
    T K
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    Sorry for highjacking your thread Kid, hope some of this has helped you too.

  18. #18
    old school drop out
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    Quote Originally Posted by T K
    Just want a nice everyday sporty but comfy "steel" ride with all of the modern accoutrement. Compact geo and not weighing a ton would be nice too.
    I own and have owned quite a few steel frames over the years. Each of the bikes has ridden differently, and most of them have ridden well. To me there's no "prefect" ride. I love one bike because it does something really well, and when I ride another bike I love it because it does something completely different really well. The differences are sometimes subtle, and other times bikes have nothing in common (but both can still be nice rides).

    Try riding different bikes and feeling the differences. "Performance" is really hard to define. And what makes you smile is even harder to define and may change from day to day.

    Don't be too caught up with weight. A mid-range "heavy" steel frame will be 5 pounds, and it's pretty easy to find a nice used steel frame that will be under 4 pounds. The lightest carbon frames available are over 2 pounds, and many carbon and aluminum frames are 3-4 pounds. Once built up, a pound or two is not a big deal.

    My lightest steel bike is under 17 pounds, and another steel bike that I own is 23+ pounds, rides really well, and probably makes me smile more than the lighter bike. Riding is about having fun. Find a bike that you like and one that you want to ride - that's all that matters.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by T K
    Now we are getting somewhere. I guess I'm not as much worried about fit as I am performance. Meaning I am basically looking for something that will feel racey like my race bike (caad 9) but just backed off a bit. If that makes sense. I don't want a century or relaxed bike but I'm not looking for a race bike. I have two of those already. Just want a nice everyday sporty but comfy "steel" ride with all of the modern accoutrement. Compact geo and not weighing a ton would be nice too.
    I have a hard time imagining a steel bike that wouldn't seem "backed off" of an ultra-stiff Cannondale. Light, compact and sporty are all excellent descriptors for the Gunnar.

    Don't get me wrong - there's lot's of nice frames out there, and I'm not a Gunnar or Waterford rider. But in a new frame, you'd be hard pressed to beat the bang per buck of an Ox Platinum Gunnar Roadie. It is pretty much a century bike that could be raced. $800 is a smokin' deal for that kind of pettigree, materials and performance.

    If I was looking for used or NOS frames in steel, I'd look at the 853 steel Lemond or just a classic older Italian lugged frame in Columbus SL. Other modern tubesets that are nicer but not super expensive are 631 and Columbus Zona, Life and Spirit. SL, Thron 520, 525, Prestige, Infinity, Aelle, 531 are more old school tube sets, but make for nice frames, just a hair heavier.

    XCr, 953 and S3 level tubes are expensive and unlikely to be found on "production" framesets.

    Of course, consider titanium for a great riding bike - any name brand will produce a great riding bike that is lighter than steel, even with the most basic straight gauge tubes. Certainly the best kind of frame to buy used.

  20. #20
    T K
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    Thanks for the info again. I checked that Gunnar roadie out some more. Seems to be a great deal. Only two things stick out about it I don't care for which are very superficial. I don't get the luggage mounts. They seem to selling it as a race bike. And the big sticker on the top tube that says "roadie". It's like my big lifted F350 with stickers on it that say
    4x4. No duh!
    Ti is definatly on the list too. Either way I'm just looking for the best bang for my buck, like the caad 9.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by T K
    Sorry for highjacking your thread Kid, hope some of this has helped you too.
    Don’t worry about the hijack. I am learning a lot also.

    Also all of the Gunner/Waterford talk is nice to hear. This is a pic of the Tange frame that I am talking about in my original post. Take a look at what I am riding in the background. I know it isn’t a road bike but it is what got me back into riding.

    PS please excuse the dirty floor, its drywall dust from remodeling.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rc51kid
    Don’t worry about the hijack. I am learning a lot also.

    Also all of the Gunner/Waterford talk is nice to hear. This is a pic of the Tange frame that I am talking about in my original post. Take a look at what I am riding in the background. I know it isn’t a road bike but it is what got me back into riding.

    PS please excuse the dirty floor, its drywall dust from remodeling.
    It would be nice to know who actually made the frame.......Panasonic? It looks great and just my size. Let me know if you want to move it. A new paint job would and a custom decal job would go a long way in making this frame a real gem. Not that it is not one already.

    BTW, that bike was not made with Prestige tubing, err, Prestige yes, but it was actually made from "Presitge Ultimate"....an even more refined tube set. Lighter and thinner tubed than the already very nice Prestige tube set. It should work out perfectly on a 50cm size frame. You got yourself a very nice frame. Try buying that new today and it would cost you some long green.......not that anyone would pay long green for your frame......but it is worth it.
    Last edited by raymonda; 12-02-2010 at 10:17 AM.

  23. #23
    WA outdoor enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by T K
    Either way I'm just looking for the best bang for my buck, like the caad 9.
    My only Cannondale was a caad2 and it sure did bang on me.

  24. #24
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    but typically

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter P.
    While the numbers may vary among steel brands, in actual use they're all so close in performance it's not worth discussing. Both Reynolds 631 and Tange Prestige are double butted tube sets to save weight and put the strength where it's needed, at the joints. And the lugged vs. TIG welded issue is not important either. Both tubesets are worthy of any high end frame.

    And T K, your question is a tall one. My suggestion is to start reading the information found on Carl Strong's web site: All you need to know about frame materials.

    tubing for lugged construction tends to be thinner in the butt area than tubing for Tig Welding
    TiG tubes need to be thicker due to the higher heat
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie
    tubing for lugged construction tends to be thinner in the butt area than tubing for Tig Welding
    TiG tubes need to be thicker due to the higher heat
    So? You state this like it should affect one's choice.

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