Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136

    What standards to go with on a custom frame?

    Hi guys. I'm a hobbyist frame builder with about a half-dozen frames behind me. Although i ride a lot of road miles, my road bike is >10 years old and i totally don't pay attention to the road world; i'm a mountain biker. I'm also a very tall/fit clydesdale.

    This new bike will be used for 30 mile spins, centuries, dirt roads, commuting, novice singletrack, minimalist touring, fast group rides... you name it. I don't need the best, but i'll ride it a lot and for many years.

    So, i really don't know much about what's going on with road cycling, but i want to build myself a new frame to replace my 2006 bianchi. I want shimano hydraulic disk brakes and at least a 1:1 low gear, but slightly lower is preferable. At the top i'd like to at least retain my 52-12.






    So i just totally don't know what's up with 11sp, basically. It looks like some road bikes have adopted 135/142 spacing...? How does that play with road chainline? In the front i'm tempted to build a 15x100 rigid fork and use 29'er wheel parts... is there a good reason not to? In the rear i'd like to do 135 QR, but that's mostly because i have extra hubs, i like the format, and wouldn't need to buy any fixturing. Talk me out of it, please.

    For drivetrain, it looks like by far the cheapest hydro option is a 105 group with really ugly shifters (rs505). The 2 reviews i read were full of hate, but typically 105 is alright and shimano hydros are all the same... so i'd love your opinions.

    Looks like the latest generation of ultegra offers an 11-34 cassette. Are there any 'gotchas' when pairing it to the previous generation stuff? I assume i'd want the latest generation ultegra RD to play nice with it. I'd rather run a MTB rd and cassette, but it looks like shimano killed that with 11sp...?


    Really anything you have to say to me is helpful, i appreciate all comments.

  2. #2
    Russian Troll Farmer
    Reputation: No Time Toulouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,534
    So....essentially you don't want a road bike, but rather a gravel bike.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  3. #3
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    So....essentially you don't want a road bike, but rather a gravel bike.
    sure, whatever.

  4. #4
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,007
    How many gear inches are you planning on? For any tire approaching "29er" sizing, a 52-12 is a complete over gearing you'll never use. Remember as your tire size increases, your wheel diameter changes. For example, 46-11 with a 700Cx44mm tire is equivalent to a 50-12 with a 700x23.

    I'd pick flat mount brakes. Axle spacing is a bit harder: 12x142mm in back, and 15x100 in front-there real;ly isn't a need for 110mm or 148mm Boost spacing. BBw-se, roadie cranks with 68mm BBs bottom out at 48-32 or 46-30, to get lower requires MTB cranks and BB shell.

    Getting big tires and a double roadie crank on requires clever chainstay shaping
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  5. #5
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: bikerjulio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,492
    Getting big tires and a double roadie crank on requires clever chainstay shaping
    Not sure I agree since I have a generic carbon cross frame that has a 68 mm BB, road double crank and handles 40 mm tires with plenty of room to spare, which would seem more than big enough for OP's uses.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  6. #6
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,007
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    Not sure I agree since I have a generic carbon cross frame that has a 68 mm BB, road double crank and handles 40 mm tires with plenty of room to spare, which would seem more than big enough for OP's uses.

    Remember how you just said carbon, and I believe the OP is building steel...
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6,865
    Probably bent and\or dimpled chainstays that are also a bit longer than would be found on a bike built for a 23\25mm tired bike. But if the OP has built himself a mountain bike he should be familiar with this.
    Too old to ride plastic

  8. #8
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,007
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    Probably bent and\or dimpled chainstays that are also a bit longer than would be found on a bike built for a 23\25mm tired bike. But if the OP has built himself a mountain bike he should be familiar with this.
    Roadie cranks/BBs are designed around the 68mm standard...MTB has been designed around 73mm. It is the reason you don't see very many (if any) bikes with roadie cranks and tires wider than maybe 45mm of any material especially meta.l My Carver got around it and used a 68mm BB...by using an asymmetrical yoke with a Ti plate in place of pipe. Course with wide axles and clearance, and shorter rear centers, you can get heel-strike depending on the frame size and foot/crank size.


    Like I said, it takes some clever designing. Course it depends on exactly what the OP wants WRT tire/wheel size and gearing.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  9. #9
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    3,351
    This is a conversation best had with your local bike shop. it sounds like you are trying to learn what parts ot ask for so you can go into the shop and do a reverse inquiry. my suggestion is tell the bike shiop what you want to do with the bike and let them come up with something appropriate. if they are a reputable business they'll do right by you. don't get caught up with the latest thing on a bike, focus on what you want the bike to do.

  10. #10
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    How many gear inches are you planning on? For any tire approaching "29er" sizing, a 52-12 is a complete over gearing you'll never use. Remember as your tire size increases, your wheel diameter changes. For example, 46-11 with a 700Cx44mm tire is equivalent to a 50-12 with a 700x23.

    I'd pick flat mount brakes. Axle spacing is a bit harder: 12x142mm in back, and 15x100 in front-there real;ly isn't a need for 110mm or 148mm Boost spacing. BBw-se, roadie cranks with 68mm BBs bottom out at 48-32 or 46-30, to get lower requires MTB cranks and BB shell.

    Getting big tires and a double roadie crank on requires clever chainstay shaping
    Sometimes it helps to be reminded.

    By looking around a little more Shimano Fc‑m985 Xtr is available in 42x30, and with an 11t i lose very little off the top; less than a cog. The proprietary chainrings are a bummer, but i've gotten over 15k on my 105 chainset, so it's probably fine.

    That sets me up to use 135 or 142 rear end spacing, solving that dilemma. Awesome. Drop bar mtb it is.

    I'm going to keep mulling it over; the design phase is a lot of fun. I don't think i care about Q, for instance...?


    Maybe one of you know a great way to use readily road drivetrain parts to get shimano hydros and a <1:1 low gear?



    Here's what i'm thinking about tonight. I'm sure it will be different tomorrow morning.

    What standards to go with on a custom frame?-sofar.jpg



    Thanks for all the replies and i appreciate your comments!
    Last edited by bubble; 12-18-2017 at 10:36 PM.

  11. #11
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,007
    Quote Originally Posted by bubble View Post
    Sometimes it helps to be reminded.

    By looking around a little more Shimano Fc‑m985 Xtr is available in 42x30, and with an 11t i lose very little off the top; less than a cog. The proprietary chainrings are a bummer, but i've gotten over 15k on my 105 chainset, so it's probably fine.

    That sets me up to use 135 or 142 rear end spacing, solving that dilemma. Awesome. Drop bar mtb it is.

    I'm going to keep mulling it over; the design phase is a lot of fun. I don't think i care about Q, for instance...?


    Maybe one of you know a great way to use readily road drivetrain parts to get shimano hydros and a <1:1 low gear?



    Here's what i'm thinking about tonight. I'm sure it will be different tomorrow morning.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sofar.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	77.3 KB 
ID:	321404



    Thanks for all the replies and i appreciate your comments!

    You can use any crankset you want. Only question is whether the FD has the spec to handle it, and the BB shell accepts it. And whether it clears the frame members My BigFoot rig uses an IRD Defiant 46-30 sq taper and an 11-32 cassette, shifting is hydraulic Di2. Result is sub 1:1 which comes in very handy for 15%+ dirt road climbs or touring. Spacing is wider than I'd like, but the range is needed. Sugino and FSA and White also make 46-30 cranks.


    With your drawing, what gives me pause....the chainstays are very short, and the head tube is quite steep. It'll handle like a road race bike in the offroad. IOW it will not be that stable on surfaces that aren't paved or solid Which if that is what you really want-then that is fine. Many "gravel bikes" are just road bikes that handle wide tires; but more stability is frequently wanted due to non-compacted and unpredictable surfaces that are already unstable. Also if you try to pannier rack the back, you may have heel-strike issues on the rack or bags with stays that short.

    For perspective, my BigFoot has adjustable PMW slider dropouts and I set them full-back to 44.5mm.


    What are you doing about the fork? If welding your own, fine...but there are only 4 high-clearance carbon fiber disc-brake forks with pannier rack points. 3 of the 4 are post mount, and use a tapered steer.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  12. #12
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136
    Regarding chainstay clearance- this is my 2nd custom road bike. The 1st one i built fit compact DA cranks and 2.1 tires. Barely, but stuffing a huge tire in there was not the top priority. I'm sure i'll be able to fit more tire than i intend to run. It's easy if it's part of the design process.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    You can use any crankset you want. Only question is whether the FD has the spec to handle it, and the BB shell accepts it. And whether it clears the frame members My BigFoot rig uses an IRD Defiant 46-30 sq taper and an 11-32 cassette, shifting is hydraulic Di2. Result is sub 1:1 which comes in very handy for 15%+ dirt road climbs or touring. Spacing is wider than I'd like, but the range is needed. Sugino and FSA and White also make 46-30 cranks.
    So the way i see it is that 24mm through axle cranks are the best. Cheap, widely available, good bearing fitment with a 68mm shell, not fussy. Square taper are always a nuisance at my size cuz it's really hard to avoid FD rub, and now un73 BBs are gone and the cranks are weirdly expensive too. They're kinda the worst option at this point, i think. That said, thanks for posting up your bike; it's rad.

    Those FSA adventure cranks are perfect, but they're kinda spendy and 30mm spindle is a pain. I suppose i should investigate the bearing size on their adapter BBs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    With your drawing, what gives me pause....the chainstays are very short, and the head tube is quite steep. It'll handle like a road race bike in the offroad. IOW it will not be that stable on surfaces that aren't paved or solid Which if that is what you really want-then that is fine. Many "gravel bikes" are just road bikes that handle wide tires; but more stability is frequently wanted due to non-compacted and unpredictable surfaces that are already unstable. Also if you try to pannier rack the back, you may have heel-strike issues on the rack or bags with stays that short.
    You guys are funny. I said i was building a road bike, you second guess i'm building a 'gravel bike,' then are concerned when i'm building a road bike. Whatever, i just want a road bike that is still fun to ride when the road gets crappy or i gotta ride some singletrack to go exploring. No bike is gonna be perfect for everything.

    I doubt i'll ever need more than a frame bag and a handlebar roll for the camping i do. If i need more my buddy builds custom racks for a hobby and that might be fun to try my hand at that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    For perspective, my BigFoot has adjustable PMW slider dropouts and I set them full-back to 44.5mm.
    One of my mountain bikes has PMW sliders. They're expensive, heavy, and since they're stainless steel they're fussy to work with and had to be silvered in. I don't wanna work with them again. They definitely have their place, but with road bikes i seem to get something i'm happy with and leave it alone.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    What are you doing about the fork? If welding your own, fine...but there are only 4 high-clearance carbon fiber disc-brake forks with pannier rack points. 3 of the 4 are post mount, and use a tapered steer.
    I'll build my own. Aftermarket forks are ugly (like yours...), they're fun to build, and i can make myself a tall one to help hide my hugeness. Also the option to build a 15mm front end is neat. I'm not sure if i'll set it up for front panniers or not; i'm not crazy about low trail geometry on an unloaded bike.

    On that note, i've pulled the front-center in a bit. If any of you have ridden a 'forward geometry' road bike i'd like to hear your impressions; i think a lot of road bikes are designed to keep a tall rider within a tiny wheelbase, but i can't explore the theory very easily.
    Last edited by bubble; 12-19-2017 at 09:05 PM.

  13. #13
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: bikerjulio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,492
    In defense of the responders to your OP, we maybe just have a simple misunderstanding. On this forum I'd think it's pretty well understood what a "road bike" is, and it's not this
    This new bike will be used for 30 mile spins, centuries, dirt roads, commuting, novice singletrack, minimalist touring, fast group rides
    Whatever, i just want a road bike that is still fun to ride when the road gets crappy or i gotta ride some singletrack to go exploring.
    Your descriptions are of a multipurpose bike, and IMHO the best fit for what you want is a 'cross or gravel bike. At least in terms of geometry. On this you can ride on or off the road, have road cranks, wide gearing, road tires, and if you need to put wider tires, like 32's or 36's, then you can.

    A gravel bike is really a variation on the 'cross bike theme. Similar in many ways except for the lack of need to shoulder carry.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    3,351
    if you are doing a custom frame, and for many that means steel or titanium, by all means get a pump peg.

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6,865
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    In defense of the responders to your OP, we maybe just have a simple misunderstanding. On this forum I'd think it's pretty well understood what a "road bike" is, and it's not this

    Your descriptions are of a multipurpose bike, and IMHO the best fit for what you want is a 'cross or gravel bike. At least in terms of geometry. On this you can ride on or off the road, have road cranks, wide gearing, road tires, and if you need to put wider tires, like 32's or 36's, then you can.

    A gravel bike is really a variation on the 'cross bike theme. Similar in many ways except for the lack of need to shoulder carry.
    Why can't it be a road bike with room for larger tires? Why build a variation of a cross bike to be ridden on the road with an occasional foray off the road?

    A "road bike" that one can ride comfortably on dirt or gravel roads tics a lot of boxes. It probably tics more boxes than a variation of a "cross bike" would for use on the road with an occasional trip off paved roads.

    I've been spending my time on a rando bike with 445mm chain stays and a 73deg HA. The long stays allow room for 51mm wide fenders and 42mm tires. The fork has a rake of 70mm, which gives the bike a low trail of 30mm, which the OP has stated he isn't interested in.

    The bike is comfortable and fast handling with the ability to carry a front load, due to the low trail, in-noticed. Most of it's miles have been on pavement, but I've also ridden it on loose gravel and it handles it with aplomb. I've ridden it on grass easily and have also ridden it on terrain which, if I was smarter, I should have stayed off of.

    But even the road I should have stayed off of would have been easier to ride if there were no fenders and I was wearing a proper SPD mountain cleat with pedals than the Look road cleats and pedals that I use.

    I think that the OP could build a bike much like this one with shorter stays, depending on tire size wanted, and a fork with less rake giving it the higher trail he prefers.

    A bike like this should allow just about any riding short of bombing off road single track, or anything else requiring a suspended mountain bike.

    I agree with Trek-5200 on the pump peg, I like the left chain stay for that.

    That's my thought on it anyway.
    Too old to ride plastic

  16. #16
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    Why can't it be a road bike with room for larger tires? Why build a variation of a cross bike to be ridden on the road with an occasional foray off the road?

    A "road bike" that one can ride comfortably on dirt or gravel roads tics a lot of boxes. It probably tics more boxes than a variation of a "cross bike" would for use on the road with an occasional trip off paved roads.

    I've been spending my time on a rando bike with 445mm chain stays and a 73deg HA. The long stays allow room for 51mm wide fenders and 42mm tires. The fork has a rake of 70mm, which gives the bike a low trail of 30mm, which the OP has stated he isn't interested in.

    The bike is comfortable and fast handling with the ability to carry a front load, due to the low trail, in-noticed. Most of it's miles have been on pavement, but I've also ridden it on loose gravel and it handles it with aplomb. I've ridden it on grass easily and have also ridden it on terrain which, if I was smarter, I should have stayed off of.

    But even the road I should have stayed off of would have been easier to ride if there were no fenders and I was wearing a proper SPD mountain cleat with pedals than the Look road cleats and pedals that I use.

    I think that the OP could build a bike much like this one with shorter stays, depending on tire size wanted, and a fork with less rake giving it the higher trail he prefers.

    A bike like this should allow just about any riding short of bombing off road single track, or anything else requiring a suspended mountain bike.

    I agree with Trek-5200 on the pump peg, I like the left chain stay for that.

    That's my thought on it anyway.
    This is exactly it.

    I want a road bike, but i want it to still be great when it gets used outside the weirdly narrow focus road bikes are. CX/gravel bikes feel like blunt instruments, and for me road geometry works great but tires and brakes hold me back. (if you didn't notice, i'm looking at very progressive road geometry for a tall rider. It works out to be a very long/stable bike considering the aggressive roadie angles)

    Either way i want a wider spread of gears than a racing bike offers combined with disk brakes. That's a tall order in today's market.




    Now i'm also interested in trp hylex brakes with 10sp barcon shifters and a 9sp RD. It's not a system i'd choose, but i can run an 11-36 10sp cassette with a normal road cranks without the $1k premium that just makes me feel like an idiot. I don't know. I have access to shimano industry pricing.... i'm tempted to just start building and see what they offer.

    I've had trp brakes in the past and they've been fantastic.

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136
    So here's the options i've come up with to get <1:1 low gear and hydro disks.






    -Downtube/barcon shifters and TRP hylex road brakes. The only option where all the pieces work together by design.

    -MTB cranks and chainline.

    -Run SRAM 11sp. Supposedly sram mtb/road derailleurs and shifters will work if you remove/add some plastic piece on the RD.

    -Strange cranks. square taper, FSA 'adventure' cranks, some sort of hack like s900 with a XX spider.

    -a really long B tension screw and a big cassette.

  18. #18
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136
    Went with

    105 50/34 cranks
    microshift shimano 11sp mtn barcon shifters (bs-m11)
    xt SGS RD
    xt 11-40 cassette
    trp hylex brakes
    cx70 FD




    I'm not thrilled to move away from brifters, but this set up had some advantages

    cheap yet good quality
    super simple and easy to service parts
    no sram
    not locked in to 1 brand for shifting and braking
    no kludges, ie- cable actuated hydros or cable pull/linkage adapters
    switchable clutch RD
    can run any gearing (current set up has massive range, which is sweet)
    friction mode shifting option


    The barcon shifters work well. I don't prefer them, but they're not annoying. Easy trimming is nice, as is how fast it is to make huge gear changes. Biggest downside is i bump my knees on them climbing standing sloppily, even though i cut down the bars. They're a good option, but kinda suck for fast group rides, and probably racing.

    The 11-40 cassette could use a 12 and 14t, but it's not a huge deal. Wide range and large jumps suits me fine.

    The cx-70 struggles with the 35 and 40t cassette cogs. Gotta trim to use them in the 50t.

    The brakes are FANTASTIC.
    Last edited by bubble; 03-07-2018 at 11:46 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. by today standards Merckx is the biggest doper
    By andy02 in forum The Doping Forum
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-27-2007, 10:14 AM
  2. Double standards? Cartoons v. Photos
    By morrison in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-16-2006, 02:44 PM
  3. more on forum standards
    By Fixed in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 11-28-2005, 02:28 PM
  4. A pricelss collection of solid gold standards
    By Sintesi in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-24-2005, 04:28 PM
  5. civil rights standards around the world
    By DougSloan in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-17-2004, 11:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Latest RoadBike Articles

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.