Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 154
  1. #51
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: kiwisimon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    5,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
    Find a builder who you believe is good at frame built to rider fit and also good at tube selection in relation to purpose of use and give them your money. Easy peasy.
    Any builder doing customs should be able to give you what you want. Advanced is totally subjective. If you want the fastest bike available, train and eat like a champion.

  2. #52
    Road Warrior
    Reputation: n2deep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    494
    Quote Originally Posted by Fignon's Barber View Post
    For what it's worth, I can add a bit of insite into that frame material. I used be the North American manager for Sandvik through the 1990's, although I ran a different division (I was in Strip Steel line). I can assure you that the Ti tubing used in the sports division was as good as you can get. You see, the plant was in Kennewick, Wa. because they serviced the nuclear industry there. They needed something to do with the small remnants of left over tubing, so they started the sports division, making bike frames,golf club shafts, and hockey stick shafts (which they had to stop for player safety-they were TOO indestructible). As the tubes were designed originally to carry nuclear waste and other harsh stuff for infinite periods of time, you can assume that you will never have an issue with corrosion or material breakdown of any kind.
    As an interested observer in the early 1990's, I tried to offer some advice since the Sandvik management of the sport division knew nothing of cycling. My advice was simple: brand panache sells in cycling, so you need a famous brand name behind your product. I had read an article in a bike magazine (remember, the internet wasn't invented by Al Gore yet) that Eddy Merckx was big on Ti. I called the sport div. manager, and offered to contact Eddy myself. Could you imagine? A match made in heaven: a state of the art manufacturing facility (they had personel and equipment to build frames far beyond bike tolerances) with frames designed and branded with the Cannibal's marque. Killer.
    Not quite. Company politics being what they were, my idea was greeted with a "Eddy who?" and "you stick with your division and we will run ours". Months later, they signed a licensing deal with Mongoose. Mongoose, as in "sold in Toys-R-Us".
    After, that, I lost interest in them. I know they started selling tubes to Dean, and then under their own generic sounding name, which may have been TiSports. The bottom line is if its a Sanvike Ti frame, its good Ti material.

    Thanks great insite,, not a lot of information about TST!!! Best Regards N2deep

  3. #53
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    182
    I would go with Carl Strong for Ti or steel, I think it's a pretty long wait though.

  4. #54
    Re-Cyclist
    Reputation: Special Eyes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,563
    Whatever tubing Sandvik was using was surely available to everyone else. It's just Ti tubing. The good stuff is 6Al4V and the common stuff is Type II, as well as the 3Al type used commonly today to save costs. I do precision CNC machining and work regularly with Ti. I have numerous suppliers that can all get the same stuff. It is possible that a particular project may require a special alloy that is custom blended, but that is pretty rare and I doubt Sandvik was doing that back then. Just because a company is in a specific location does not give them any advantage except for lower freight costs.
    Santa Barbara, CA -- My Photo Site -- My Business Site

  5. #55
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: kiwisimon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    5,453
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyMc2006 View Post
    I would go with Carl Strong for Ti or steel, I think it's a pretty long wait though.
    Love both my Strongs, 1 steel and one Ti, great bloke. No BS and pure function creates form, no gimmicks.

  6. #56
    Formosan Cyclocross
    Reputation: Dajianshan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,378
    This thread is a bit of a head scratcher as we try to breakdown the meaning of the word "advanced" to describe a very basic truss design that has little changed for over 100 years. If we really look at what a frame does, how much more "advanced" can that really get? It holds the rider in place between the two wheels. The issue becomes ideas/ideals of stiffness, weight and drag; the current darlings of bicycle marketing accounts. So maybe this thread should be about which companies are addressing these "issues" on their bikes.

  7. #57
    corning my own beef
    Reputation: JustTooBig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    5,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Cinelli 82220 View Post
    Are you serious or just being sarcastic. TiSports made many companies ti frames, stems, handlebars and seatposts.
    No sarcasm. Yes, I was aware of several they *made* (note the past tense) frames for. The other poster used present tense, I wasn't aware that was still happening.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    People who say, "Laughter is the best medicine.." have never been on the receiving end of a morphine drip..

    ноожеяз ай вщоw?
    -VaughnA


    A fool and his money were damned lucky to have bumped into each other in the first place.

  8. #58
    Not Banned
    Reputation: atpjunkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    48,375
    Any of the long term builders is going to make you a great frame
    your best bet is to find one close by where you can visit and get fitted
    that will make more of a difference than anything

    as far as tech I think the Holland Exogrids are at the top of the class
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  9. #59
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    499
    I would never buy a Ti bike or a custom one...

    But atpjunkie's advice is bybfar the best. If you want advanced, then go with a bike made in factory with the most cutting edge manufacturing and testing. Otherwise, custom bikes, only benefit I can understand is custom fitting. None of these Ti bikes come close to the advancements of says Synapse Carbon that I can see. Just from outsiders view on custom bikes, I don't see how you can get a better experience over the phone with Linskey vs visiting a local shop and getting every minute detail discussed and fitted in person.

    These are bikes, not rockets. As long as its the right fit and he knows how to weld well, don't see what the issue would be. Who cares if moots CNC machines their own cable stoppers... I know in Boston, there are too many bike builders already!

    And for repairs and warranty issues, you won't have ship the bike, dude is right there!
    Last edited by ruckus; 04-21-2014 at 08:29 AM.

  10. #60
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    5,358
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTooBig View Post
    No sarcasm. Yes, I was aware of several they *made* (note the past tense) frames for. The other poster used present tense, I wasn't aware that was still happening.
    He was quoting an article from the era when it was still happening.
    It isn't happening anymore, sadly.

  11. #61
    Formosan Cyclocross
    Reputation: Dajianshan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,378
    I think the "advancements" touted by the major brands today are not nearly as great as they'd like you to imagine. The Synapse does what designers have been asking bike frames to do for generations. The trick is getting it to do the same things with different materials at a higher margin. I used to really pay attention to the reports coming out of the bike shows every year for new "advancements" in X, Y or Z. But living in the center of the bicycle designing universe, I have learned how little any of it really means… even to the pros (many of whom that I have had the pleasure to meet believe their ideal bicycle would be custom titanium or even classic steel).

  12. #62
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    499
    @Dajianshan I agree with you. I don't see why anyone would focus so much on one part of my comment when the actual point was I agreed with another member that if you want a custom Ti frame, that speaking in person and dealing in person with a builder would be the best idea. It was just an observation, not a fact. I saw no reason why anyone would start throwing out insults and calling names over it. Or spamming reputation button like an immature brat.

    In the end, whatever gets someone out of bed before work/class etc and ride is a good thing. For me, I don't care, if 50 million more cyclists were on the road more so drivers became more aware and used to cyclist on the road, better for me.

    Flame on, be immature and sending me terrible messages about how little intelligence I have and how bad a person I am on a forum where we all post anonymously. Unbelievable the immaturity of some RBR members have.

  13. #63
    Formosan Cyclocross
    Reputation: Dajianshan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,378


    Hmmm… the forums aren't what they used to be.

  14. #64
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    5

    Who builds the most advanced Titanium Frame

    Interesting discussion on Ti...thanks all, for the insight. Shame some feel the need to flame, we all have experience/opinions here.

  15. #65
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    212
    Spectrum-Cycles and Firefly are worth a look. Check these two out.
    Marketing = Deception

  16. #66
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Fignon's Barber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,272
    Quote Originally Posted by Special Eyes View Post
    Whatever tubing Sandvik was using was surely available to everyone else. It's just Ti tubing. The good stuff is 6Al4V and the common stuff is Type II, as well as the 3Al type used commonly today to save costs. I do precision CNC machining and work regularly with Ti. I have numerous suppliers that can all get the same stuff. It is possible that a particular project may require a special alloy that is custom blended, but that is pretty rare and I doubt Sandvik was doing that back then. Just because a company is in a specific location does not give them any advantage except for lower freight costs.
    short answer: No. No.No..and no. Like any product made/bought/sold, there are different grades,etc. This depends on the customers' needs. As explained, the Ti tubes were designed to carry nuclear waste and other bad stuff. To put it in cycling terms, Sandvik was like Assos. Always cutting edge of tech and quality. Not cheap, but the best.

  17. #67
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    3,125
    Quote Originally Posted by BLUE BOY View Post
    Spectrum-Cycles and Firefly are worth a look. Check these two out.
    Found some old discussions on Road Bike and Velocipede about curved seat stays and chain stays, which might be one way a Ti builder might add to the bike engineering. Opinions seemed to be that there was some benefit, but not a significant one.

    My new take is a good Ti bike is about good welds, geometry and proper selection of tubing to create a bike that is good for the rider's goals. Doesn't seem like there's a secret sauce here, just passion and paying attention to the customer. Also in reading the forums, it seems steel and titanium are the areas where custom builders can effectively compete where as Carbon and Aluminum are mostly in the domain of mass market bikes built in Asia (of course exceptions do exist like Parlee).

  18. #68
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    My new take is a good Ti bike is about good welds, geometry and proper selection of tubing to create a bike that is good for the rider's goals. Doesn't seem like there's a secret sauce here, just passion and paying attention to the customer.
    Wow, you just described Tom Kellogg @ Spectrum-Cycles to a tee. You may want to give them a closer look or give them a call.
    Marketing = Deception

  19. #69
    Formosan Cyclocross
    Reputation: Dajianshan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,378
    Found some old discussions on Road Bike and Velocipede about curved seat stays and chain stays, which might be one way a Ti builder might add to the bike engineering. Opinions seemed to be that there was some benefit, but not a significant one.

    My new take is a good Ti bike is about good welds, geometry and proper selection of tubing to create a bike that is good for the rider's goals. Doesn't seem like there's a secret sauce here, just passion and paying attention to the customer. Also in reading the forums, it seems steel and titanium are the areas where custom builders can effectively compete where as Carbon and Aluminum are mostly in the domain of mass market bikes built in Asia (of course exceptions do exist like Parlee).
    I think you pretty much sum it up.

    I don't think carbon fiber essentially makes a better, faster, higher performance bike. What it does do, is to make it possible for manufacturers to make a fast, high performance bicycle frame that is better for the bottom lines of manufacturers and branding companies. The trick for some of the CF fabricators has been to try and emulate some of the positive qualities of metal tubing while maintaining the integrity of the CF truss. When I had my Ti racing bicycle built up I kept this in mind… One of my friends is a manufacturer of some of the highest tier racing bicycle frames in the world. He is also a semi-pro racer. He replaces his bikes every six to nine months for safety reasons. Thus, one high performance "advancement" of Ti is its durability and elasticity.

    The shapes of the stays probably do little more than look sexy. The key is to tune the stays for the appropriate geometry. After noticing longer stays than you typically find on a modern race bike on my own design (410mm), I took the question around to other experts. Look at the chain stay lengths from Seven, Parlee and Baum, among others. The stock mid-range stays are 410, 410, and 412 respectively. Parlee called it, "the sweet spot for performance". The custom builders can do this because they are not focused on other concerns beyond the requested behavior of the bike. They can find neutral handling for the rider. Titanium is very customizable in this regard. The technological advancements are not flashy or gimmicky, but reside in the application of hard data and material.

    Seven, Firefly, Independent, Moots are among the best at data collection and interpretation.

    For the record, I ride and race on a Seven Axiom SL. One of my friends who is a professional rider in some of those big stage races you might hear about, he has his eye on a Firefly when he retires from the sport.

  20. #70
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    3,125
    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan View Post
    I think you pretty much sum it up.

    I don't think carbon fiber essentially makes a better, faster, higher performance bike. What it does do, is to make it possible for manufacturers to make a fast, high performance bicycle frame that is better for the bottom lines of manufacturers and branding companies. The trick for some of the CF fabricators has been to try and emulate some of the positive qualities of metal tubing while maintaining the integrity of the CF truss. When I had my Ti racing bicycle built up I kept this in mind… One of my friends is a manufacturer of some of the highest tier racing bicycle frames in the world. He is also a semi-pro racer. He replaces his bikes every six to nine months for safety reasons. Thus, one high performance "advancement" of Ti is its durability and elasticity.

    The shapes of the stays probably do little more than look sexy. The key is to tune the stays for the appropriate geometry. After noticing longer stays than you typically find on a modern race bike on my own design (410mm), I took the question around to other experts. Look at the chain stay lengths from Seven, Parlee and Baum, among others. The stock mid-range stays are 410, 410, and 412 respectively. Parlee called it, "the sweet spot for performance". The custom builders can do this because they are not focused on other concerns beyond the requested behavior of the bike. They can find neutral handling for the rider. Titanium is very customizable in this regard. The technological advancements are not flashy or gimmicky, but reside in the application of hard data and material.

    Seven, Firefly, Independent, Moots are among the best at data collection and interpretation.

    For the record, I ride and race on a Seven Axiom SL. One of my friends who is a professional rider in some of those big stage races you might hear about, he has his eye on a Firefly when he retires from the sport.
    I have a c-59, but I hesitate to ride it from late fall to early spring when the roads are really at their worst. Was thinking about an Axiom Sl built with bigger wheels maybe 25 or 27's. The goal is not so much to build a faster or better climbing bike than what I have now, but something more durable and planted for when the roads are a bit slicker, but still keeping the road bike profile. I'm not feeling as dialed in to my old Trek as I used to, maybe it's the geometry. I can't seem to push myself on it as I do with the c-59.

  21. #71
    Formosan Cyclocross
    Reputation: Dajianshan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,378
    That's funny, I built my Axiom SL with the C59 as a starting point. When I am fit and healthy, I can climb among the best. The geometry favors my climbing skills and offers superior technical descending.

  22. #72
    merckxman
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    2,097
    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan View Post
    The geometry favors my climbing skills and offers superior technical descending.
    superior technical descending: topic that deserves more attention than it receives.

  23. #73
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by Cinelli 82220 View Post
    Ah, there's the rub. When ti first came on the scene it was not used to it's proper advantage. As discussed elsewhere many early ti frames failed because they were built too light.
    Others failed because builders worried about making nice looking welds instead of structurally sound welds.
    What parameters do we use to define a titanium frame as "advanced"?
    Complex shaping is neat but can lead to failure if the material is over-worked.
    Light weight is great but not at the expense of durability.
    Smooth welds look nice but could be bad welds covered with filler and buffed smooth.
    Ti/carbon hybrids can have the best of both materials but may have problems with bonding or corrosion where the different materials contact.
    I've been riding a small company bike now for awhile, Padunao racing Gladio. It's a really nice frame but as you claim. It's really not made to be light as the lightest carbon frames. It's not butted at the expense of rigidity. Completely different in ride feel to my previous Foil in a positive way. No issues what so ever with the bonding. If you are nervous for problems with bonding, i suggest you look up warranty. Paduano comes with lifetime for first buyer. At the moment i am waiting for a new frame to be finished, a Fidia.
    It's rear triangle is titanium and only TT and DT is carbon. Legend Queen Ti only uses a carbon seatmast just as Passoni XXti.
    These builders uses carbon seatmast instead of titanium only for the fact they don't wish to weld a ti seatmast tube at the seatstays and TT junction of the seatmast tube. Paduano does not weld this junction, but instead bond. This time i went for carbon tubes in TT and DT only to make the front stiffer. Gladio is similar but as Passoni and Legend also uses a carbon seatmast tube. What can be told of a bike like Gladio is that it is not as harsh as a Foil. Less vibrations in the contact points and not causing muscle fatigue as i felt my Foil did.
    I've seen different approaches to stiffen up a full ti-bike. Mostly seen looking at the none round TT's and DT's that appears (more and more) on Lightspeed, Lynskey, Nevi and some other ti bikes. A ti bike that is getting very light, will probably flex quite a bit more. So a stiff ti bike will come in slightly more heavy than a carbon dito. But i say you won't have to be afraid of flex, these bikes are stiffer than you might realize. My custom sized 57 is now at 7570g with empy bottles, bike pc and pedals.

    Where Foil was more twitchy, the Gladio is stable and i feel more in controll descending fast and cornering fast. If i say Gladio is stable like a train, it has much to do with the different BB drop (78mm) which helps but it also has a longer wheelbase. My new frame will be lower in stack (lower head tube) and just a bit shorter TT (8-10mm). Cost, yes Paduano, Passoni and Legends ti bikes are expensive. Having bikes (hand)built in USA or EU cost more than outsourcing to Asia. Mostly, like the fact that i have lifetime warranty and i never need to be afriad of a cracked headtube, BB or those other critical areas. In case of a crash, they help you fix the bike. The arguement against them come down to price and weight. You can get a full carbon frame at a very much lower weight.
    Legend Queen Ti and Passoni XXti cost quite alot more than a Paduano.

  24. #74
    Burnette
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    98

    Advance This

    Hey Rickard Lauer, I had never heard of Padunao, found this on their site:
    Image 3/14 | GALLERY&SPECIAL MASTERPIECES


    Who builds the most advanced Titanium Frame-padunao.jpg
    I bet it comes with a bottle of crazy sauce!

  25. #75
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    183

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
    Hey Rickard Lauer, I had never heard of Padunao, found this on their site:
    Image 3/14 | GALLERY&SPECIAL MASTERPIECES


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	padunao.jpg 
Views:	1273 
Size:	41.1 KB 
ID:	294770
    I bet it comes with a bottle of crazy sauce!
    This bike is if i am not totally off, partly, a customers own ideas. The crazy sauce might come along if you ask nicely. But i don't believe this is a "standard" bike. Personally i think it's great that customers can have what they want, even if i would not want it.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. More options regarding disc-brake frame builds
    By Rickard Laufer in forum Bikes, Frames and Forks
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-24-2013, 07:09 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-08-2010, 05:40 PM
  3. 06 Giant TCR frame vs. 07 TCR Composite frame vs. 07 TCR Advanced frame
    By Supersonic in forum Bikes, Frames and Forks
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-25-2007, 07:37 AM
  4. TCR Advanced or Composite frame?
    By drhule23 in forum Giant
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-21-2005, 12:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •