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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kykr13
    This thread pertains to my interests.

    A lot of these have 1" head tubes, and some are/might be threaded. Is this something you (collectively) would buy without any issue, only if the price was right for the frame set, or totally avoid?
    I wouldn't hesitate to buy a frame that uses a threaded fork. Heck, I've got several. The Schwinn Circuit I mentioned earlier has a threaded fork and it's one of my favorites. 1 1/8" threadless wasn't invented because it was better. It's easier and cheaper to manufacture. The only thing I like better about threadless is adjusting the headset bearings. Threaded is more finicky than threadless.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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    Mel Erickson

  2. #52
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    BTW, that Masi Gran Criterium is pure win. Wish it came in another color, though. Actually, I'm glad it's black cause otherwise I'd be too tempted...

    They look nice in blue...


  3. #53
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    My Land Shark, built with Reynolds 731 OS Race, is one of the best-riding frames I've ever been on. Quality steel frames typically come from smaller volume builders, but the offerings from Soma, Raleigh and Masi among others show that this market is still very much alive and they're building great frames to fulfill it.


  4. #54
    BIKE GEEK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski
    BTW, that Masi Gran Criterium is pure win. Wish it came in another color, though. Actually, I'm glad it's black cause otherwise I'd be too tempted...

    They look nice in blue...

    Good NIGHT that is HOT. Hrm...maybe in 5 years my new Masi will need a paint job ;)
    -Tyler
    --2010 Trek 69er 3X9
    --2011 Masi Gran Criterium
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  5. #55
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    Masi bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbarsix
    Good NIGHT that is HOT. Hrm...maybe in 5 years my new Masi will need a paint job ;)
    I did take a look and behold, there is a Masi dealer, 64 miles wown the road near me....and YES the grand crit, very nice, I do have some time to look

    I also saw that Raleigh is carried by REI and I have a few of those near by
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  6. #56
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    There are plenty of steel frame manufacturers out there ranging from cheap to expensive - Waterford, Vanilla, Strong, Colnago Master X Light and the list goes on and on.

    The real issue is that steel frames just don't sell. No one wants steel. Yes there are a few diehards out there but they are as numerous as math students searching for slide rulers.

    You can blame it on how heavy steel frames are or on how they tend to rust without frame saver or how flexy they are. Whatever, take your pick. It really doesn't matter. The fact is that there is just no demand for steel frames and that's not going to change.



  7. #57
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    strongly disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer
    *


    There are plenty of steel frame manufacturers out there ranging from cheap to expensive - Waterford, Vanilla, Strong, Colnago Master X Light and the list goes on and on.

    The real issue is that steel frames just don't sell. No one wants steel. Yes there are a few diehards out there but they are as numerous as math students searching for slide rulers.

    You can blame it on how heavy steel frames are or on how they tend to rust without frame saver or how flexy they are. Whatever, take your pick. It really doesn't matter. The fact is that there is just no demand for steel frames and that's not going to change.


    That total BS.

    In the late 80'd earl;y 90's when c dale made its aluminum vasectomy machine, every said aluminum was harsh. One of the most comfortable ridea I had was on an aluminum bike and it was a c dale.

    THEN everyone said Carbon was too new, it would never cath on, its not practicla etcetc , that changed.

    THEN, everyome said Tio was too high end, not so, they sell.

    The deal is, if steel is so terrible, and it rusts, you assume other materials do not corrode or fail? Thats false. Its the build and fit of a machine that make a ride. The wholematerial thing, thats a crock. Steel, you have 4 grand plus steel frames and they are selling. Hoe do you seel a 4 G frame and not have a demand, thats a crock.

    The deal is you can make more bucks on things that fail and things that change rapidly and require upgrades. Thats any material. AND yes, its about bikes as well.

    I very much detest folks who claim any BS quality about a material when if they riode a bike that fit, it possibly would make no difference except for weight what you rode. The reasom its hard to finms decent steel is lets face it, carbon is popular now, this will change, life will go on.

    Please, dont postthis crap when all I wanted to know was who made lugged steel frames ok?
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  8. #58
    Frog Whisperer
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    ttug....i got 2 steel and aluminum and a carbon.......I have been riding my carbon mostly and i like it....but i LOVE my bianchi.....I wish it were lugged....my Trek 400 is but my Bianchi is more comfortable.......If i was made of money I would buy the Dolomiti in a heartbeat
    Of course I'm sure...that doesn't mean I'm right.....

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloduffer
    Carbon fiber is much cheaper to produce, both material and labor costs are significantly lower than steel and titanium.
    Mind sharing your suppliers? I design and build single seater race cars for school, and we would LOVE to use more carbon fiber, but cost ease of production always lead us back to 4130 steel...

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by scryan
    Mind sharing your suppliers? I design and build single seater race cars for school, and we would LOVE to use more carbon fiber, but cost ease of production always lead us back to 4130 steel...
    You want to build one care or 10,000 cars? Taking an argument about bicycle production and applying it to solitary car projects lacks honesty.

    You, I'm sure, KNOW why steel happens to be the cheapest alternative for your project. If you didn't have a welder, it wouldn't be. But you could have used fiberglass, too, which you don't mention. So either steel is good for a one-off, or you just lack imagination.



    And Panzer, steel's fall from popularity has nothing to do with any of the things you list. It is simply considered old fashioned by the millions of unthinking consumers that constantly demand change for change's sake. If steel frames were developed after carbon fiber, you'd be making just as weak an argument about crack propogation, UV damage and mold voids to justify the popular bias against the old tech. Give it a break.

  11. #61
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    I just bought a 2010 Kona Haole. Deda Zero Replica steel and a very smooth riding bike. Huge difference in ride quality over my mixed material Trek and I can ride it in full sunlight without the risk of it exploding like that lightweight plastic stuff.

    In all seriousness, I went steel since I essentially needed a big mileage bike to build base for CX and I didn't want to worry constantly about carbon. (Like driving a Porsche - it goes fast and is fun to drive but you constantly fret some moron in the parking lot will ding it with the door of his pickup.)

    The Masi Gran Criterium was on my short list but I couldn't pass up the deal I got on my Kona. If you prefer lugs, you may still find some closeout Kona Kapu framesets out there for under a grand.

  12. #62
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    A question for Soma owners...

    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock
    Soma Stanyan is a nice lugged steel frameset for about $650.

    Likely could build it up with some SRAM Apex or Rival and have a pretty nice bike for under $2K.

    Did you build up your bike yourself? Did you have any problems?

    Soma's FAQ says:

    We highly recommend you take your frame to a bike shop to be built. If you must do it yourself...You don't want to start building a frame only to find something wrong with it in the middle of building. Check frame and fork alignment. Face the BB and headtube, if needed. Chase the BB if needed. Check for burrs in the seat tube that might score your seatpost. Optional: Treat the insides of the frame with J.P. Weigle's Frame Saver for corrosion protection. If you do not have facing and chasing tools, try to look for resources in your area. In SF there is the non-profit Bike Kitchen that let's you go in and use their tools for free. And there are people there to answer questions as well."

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by robwh9
    Did you build up your bike yourself? Did you have any problems?

    Soma's FAQ says:

    We highly recommend you take your frame to a bike shop to be built. If you must do it yourself...You don't want to start building a frame only to find something wrong with it in the middle of building. Check frame and fork alignment. Face the BB and headtube, if needed. Chase the BB if needed. Check for burrs in the seat tube that might score your seatpost. Optional: Treat the insides of the frame with J.P. Weigle's Frame Saver for corrosion protection. If you do not have facing and chasing tools, try to look for resources in your area. In SF there is the non-profit Bike Kitchen that let's you go in and use their tools for free. And there are people there to answer questions as well."
    This means that they do not chase and face the frames or inspect them. You MUST chase and face these frames or you'll have problems. Other, nicer frames get more prep and inspection before they're sold. But you'll need to pay a little for a frame prep and inspection at the LBS with a Soma.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer
    *


    There are plenty of steel frame manufacturers out there ranging from cheap to expensive - Waterford, Vanilla, Strong, Colnago Master X Light and the list goes on and on.

    The real issue is that steel frames just don't sell. No one wants steel. Yes there are a few diehards out there but they are as numerous as math students searching for slide rulers.

    You can blame it on how heavy steel frames are or on how they tend to rust without frame saver or how flexy they are. Whatever, take your pick. It really doesn't matter. The fact is that there is just no demand for steel frames and that's not going to change.



    You are right and wrong; but reason maybe not what you are thinking

    steel framed bikes do sell poorly; compared to aluminum, carbon, and even Ti
    however, there is enough demand for companies to offer this alternative

    But the main reason for lower demand is not weight, rust, flex -- it is pure image
    Steel in the mind of the normal buyer does not seem as modern or expensive as AL, CF, or Ti

    And with high grade steel costing more than low end aluminum; and really nice steel more than CF, and with super exotic steel over Ti - there is a real preception problem

    However, there will be an increase in high-grade steel frame sales in the next few years; I am certain
    mike
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  15. #65
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    one of the nicest still in production

    Colnago C50 WX07 54......
    if you don't fall off, you're not trying hard enough.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rx-79g
    This means that they do not chase and face the frames or inspect them. You MUST chase and face these frames or you'll have problems. Other, nicer frames get more prep and inspection before they're sold. But you'll need to pay a little for a frame prep and inspection at the LBS with a Soma.
    So, they don't inspect their frames when they receive them from the manufacturer? Quality control is the customer's responsibility? It sounds like buying a Soma is a crapshoot.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by robwh9
    So, they don't inspect their frames when they receive them from the manufacturer? Quality control is the customer's responsibility? It sounds like buying a Soma is a crapshoot.
    It's not like they don't have a warranty or that the quality is actually bad. But they probably don't even unwrap them. That's part of why the price is what it is.

    A basic check of frame alignment and dropouts take a few minutes. Facing is still considered a necessary check anytime you aren't told it was done at the factory. So really, this is nothing new.

    If you don't like it, buy something else. But you will pay more.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttug
    That total BS.

    In the late 80'd earl;y 90's when c dale made its aluminum vasectomy machine, every said aluminum was harsh. One of the most comfortable ridea I had was on an aluminum bike and it was a c dale.

    THEN everyone said Carbon was too new, it would never cath on, its not practicla etcetc , that changed.

    THEN, everyome said Tio was too high end, not so, they sell.

    The deal is, if steel is so terrible, and it rusts, you assume other materials do not corrode or fail? Thats false. Its the build and fit of a machine that make a ride. The wholematerial thing, thats a crock. Steel, you have 4 grand plus steel frames and they are selling. Hoe do you seel a 4 G frame and not have a demand, thats a crock.

    The deal is you can make more bucks on things that fail and things that change rapidly and require upgrades. Thats any material. AND yes, its about bikes as well.

    I very much detest folks who claim any BS quality about a material when if they riode a bike that fit, it possibly would make no difference except for weight what you rode. The reasom its hard to finms decent steel is lets face it, carbon is popular now, this will change, life will go on.

    Please, dont postthis crap when all I wanted to know was who made lugged steel frames ok?



    Whether you agree with it or disagree with it is completely irrelevant. The fact is that there is virtually no demand for steel frames. If you believe that there is then you are just fooling yourself. There are several frame builders out there who will sell you a steel frame and I listed some of them in my original post.

    Those who believe that frame builders are conspiring against the consumer by not offering steel frames to fatten their profits are also big fools. Yes, frame builders would like us to purchase the higher end Ti or carbon frames as the profit margins are much higher for them. But if there were truly a measurable demand for steel frames, you can bet that some frame builders would move in to fill that niche and make a profit.

    Aluminum frames are also low end frames along with steel. But there are many aluminum frame builders out there selling large volumes of aluminum frames and making nice profits. Why, because the demand is there.

    When you talk about posting crap on this forum, you might first want to take a good look at your face in the mirror. A basic course in economics would also help.



  19. #69
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    Wellin the last three years, Lemond disappeared and they still had a couiple of steel framed bikes left when they were around. Steel is not dead. Many manufacturers have are offering one or two road bike models with a steel frame. My favorite off the shelf steelie right now is the Raleigh Record Ace. It comes equipped with Ultegra gearing and a rather expensive Brooks saddle for around $2K. I don't own one but it looks like a nice option if you want to buy an off the shelf bike. Please keep in mind that bike prices have risen as well. The steelies you see now might seem to cost as much as comparable tupperware bikes but that isn't the case. Those tupperware bikes have gone up too- along with everything else that has anything to do with cycling. The average plastic Ultegra bike now is between $3000-4000. Similarly equipped aluminum is between $2500-$3000. Some similarly equipped tupperware bikes can be had for a little less on sale but $3,000 seems like the bottom end in price. For some companies, making a steelie with high end components does seem like a smart choice since they want something that will sell well ot it's targetmarket. We love them, but that doesn't mean that they are going to be great sellers. Well, they will sell well but in low-production volume.
    Last edited by terbennett; 02-10-2011 at 09:43 AM.

  20. #70
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    yes

    Quote Originally Posted by terbennett
    Wellin the last three years, Lemond disappeared and they still had a couiple of steel framed bikes left when they were around. Steel is not dead. Many manufacturers have brought but one or teo road bike models with a steel frame. My favorite off the shelf steelie right now is the Raleigh Record Ace. It comes equipped with Ultegra gearing and a rather expensive Brooks saddle for around $2K. I don't own one but it looks like a nice option if you want to buy an off the shelf bike. Please keep in mind that bike prices have risen as well. The steelies you see now might seem to cost as much as comparable tupperware bikes but that isn't the case. Those carbon bikes have gone up too- along with everything else that has anything to do with cycling. The average Ultegra bike now is between $3000-4000. Some can be had for a little less on sale but $3,000 seems like the bottom end in price. For some companies, making a steelie with high end components does seem like a smart choice since they want something that will sell to the masses. We love them, but that doesn't mean that they are going to be great sellers.
    I just had a chance to throw my leg onto a Raleigh you described...I liked the feel. BUT, now I want to test ride one
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  21. #71
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    economics, I am game

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer
    Whether you agree with it or disagree with it is completely irrelevant. The fact is that there is virtually no demand for steel frames. If you believe that there is then you are just fooling yourself. There are several frame builders out there who will sell you a steel frame and I listed some of them in my original post.

    Those who believe that frame builders are conspiring against the consumer by not offering steel frames to fatten their profits are also big fools. Yes, frame builders would like us to purchase the higher end Ti or carbon frames as the profit margins are much higher for them. But if there were truly a measurable demand for steel frames, you can bet that some frame builders would move in to fill that niche and make a profit.

    Aluminum frames are also low end frames along with steel. But there are many aluminum frame builders out there selling large volumes of aluminum frames and making nice profits. Why, because the demand is there.

    When you talk about posting crap on this forum, you might first want to take a good look at your face in the mirror. A basic course in economics would also help.


    I have a Masters in International Transactions, yes, lets discuss economics, lets do that.

    The demand for steel exists because there are steel bikes that sell, for large bucks and ooddly enough, they are also SOLD AND BOUGHT at the agreed upon large price.

    Ergo, there is a demand as the product is bought, and if we were to break the same product down into subtypes, you would see that YES, there is a demand because the product is sold. So, the whole there is no demand thing, thats wrong.........

    Additionally, as there are people who still make steel bikes, I would assume that they do so for the sake of making money and have fun. They are not xeroxing the money, they are earning the said money from a transaction that involves the sale of the item. Ergo, there is a demand.

    Further, some folks, actually wait, for their bike to be made, they wait months, for their bike, made of steel to be made......Additionally, there are trade shows, that have as their subject, steel frames. SO, yes, there is a demand, because, they are sold, and because folks still make them.

    I do not know the precise profit margin, but assuming we are ion the good ol US of A, most companies I know of, operate by the fact that they make a profit. Otherwise, they get bought or disappear.

    I however do agree that the sheer num,ber of companies that make steel bikes has shrank, or the ammount of said steel bikes are made in a smaller quantity. However, the hard cold economic fact remains that since there is a demand, there is a supply. Sorry, thats been that way for a long long time.

    It is now, very popular to ride carbon, or aluminum or ti or whatever combo you want really. The popularity of the material side is rather obvious, there are more of them, so, there should be a larger demand, which as of this moment appears to be the case.

    Does this mean they are better? Nope. It means there is a larger demand.

    Now that we have established the fact that the demand of a product usualloy results in a supply which will hopefully strive to meet the demand, we could talk a walk on the wild side and say, golly how does supply and demand effect prices? Sadly, its not all about supply and demand because we have these things called externalities. Perception, brand loyalty, fashion etc etc etc So even an item, in an abundant ammount, could still sell for a profit because yes, it gets cheaper to make a product as more are made, you will gain some efficiencies in poduction methods and that can and should cause a price to go down, you still have a demand that can cause the price to go up, regardless of how many of the things are out there..

    Can increasing demand, cause a product to decline in price? YES.

    IF the ammount made, exceeds even a large demand, sooner or later you will hit the sweet spot, BUT, luckily, we are in a place where, if you can manipulate things, model year, paint schemes, decrease durability etc etc, you can absolutely make more profit, however you have to sell more at the decreased profit margin to make raw gain. You could still have profits, thats swell. However, the average consumer, gets fed up and the price will decline no matter how cool the new identical frame looks. AND FACE IT, lower profits higher demand means, more get made and some market guru says hey, we need to make more money(profits), fast, how do we do that? Why we market a newer and normally not improved product.......BUT, you have now saturated the market. Now what? The demand will start to fall UNLESS

    You could build in failure..ha ha ha OR you could come out with innovations which do not play well with the previous models....golly, we all know this wouild never happen with bikes right?

    OR how about this, why not start out with a "new" product and attach the adjective RETRO to it and see what happens. A new product at least in the guise of the loving consumer such as yourself who cant get their head around the fact and its a fact, if you do not make a profit, you cease to exist as a corporate entity. These are the same folks who believe a bank lends money from profits, yeah, thats wrong. A bank, lends debt and if you cant grow a business, because you cant generate a profit, you cant go to a bank and get a loan...........because, you could not pay them back and thus, the bank would get the double shaft, your default, and their debt

    SADLY, for those of us who recall the days of pre 1990, and even gasp, pre 1980, they will know that retro, is another maket word for, we are out of innovations and thus we will request you take it up the shaft for this "new" retro product.

    So the fools, are the ones who dont have enough common sense to crack open a book and read the history of the sport and watch its technology change and just see that the retro of today was the cool stuff of decades past.
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  22. #72
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    I just ordered a Stanyan.

    Quote Originally Posted by rx-79g
    It's not like they don't have a warranty or that the quality is actually bad. But they probably don't even unwrap them. That's part of why the price is what it is.

    A basic check of frame alignment and dropouts take a few minutes. Facing is still considered a necessary check anytime you aren't told it was done at the factory. So really, this is nothing new.

    If you don't like it, buy something else. But you will pay more.
    What the heck, I'm a randonneur geek, and I always felt inadequate because I didn't have a randonneur geek bike.

    I rode a Tange Prestige bike (a Lotus Prestige) from '87 to '98 and it had a sweet ride. My ride since then is Reynolds 853 (a KHS Aero Comp), also a sweet ride, but is in need of replacement.

    Let's see, now I need a Brooks saddle, a Carradice saddle bag (do they make handlebar bags too?), fenders, Schmidt hub generator and lights....am I missing anything?
    Last edited by robwh9; 02-09-2011 at 11:11 AM.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rx-79g
    It's not like they don't have a warranty or that the quality is actually bad. But they probably don't even unwrap them. That's part of why the price is what it is.

    A basic check of frame alignment and dropouts take a few minutes. Facing is still considered a necessary check anytime you aren't told it was done at the factory. So really, this is nothing new.

    If you don't like it, buy something else. But you will pay more.
    Surly is the same way and it's pretty standard at this price point. It is definitely worth it to buy these types of frames from a good shop that will face and chase it. My Cross Check definitely needed it but was straight as an arrow.

  24. #74
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    gotta say

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick
    here's a lugged steel bike from '96.

    ignore the modern components
    it's a pig @ 17.88 lbs

    more pics available at the Merckx gallery..

    Official gallery of your Eddy Merckx bike(s)

    cheers!

    something incongruous about an MXL w/ lightweight wheels
    and I'm an MXL owner
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  25. #75
    always right sometimes
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    Edit..can't load pic..
    Last edited by rydbyk; 02-09-2011 at 06:48 PM.

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