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  1. #1
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    Angry Campagnolo says Surper Record EPS or Mechanical will not work on a De Rosa Protos

    Hi, I bought a De Rosa Protos and put a 2015 EPS Super Record Groupset on it. I have had major upshifting and chain drop issues with the front derailleur. The back derailleur works perfectly. Campagnolo USA says the reason Campy SR EPS will not work properly on the bike is that De Rosa did not design the Protos to Campy specs. Campy says the chain line is at the wrong angle. In fact, Campy says S R mechanical won't work on the bike.

    Has anyone else heard this? I find this surprising because De Rosa sells Protos frames in Europe with EPS or mechanical Super Record on them. One pro team on the Protos uses EPS. Another uses mechanical.

    If what Campy is saying is correct, then Campy and De Rosa should warn the pubic that the frame and Groupos are not compatible.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

  2. #2
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    Rather than Campy USA, whose function and degree of knowledge is somewhat mysterious, why not just ask De Rosa?
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  3. #3
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    I spoke to De Rosa and the person said that all De Rosa Frames, including the Protos are made to Campy Specs. This person's position was my issues had nothing to do with the frame; had to do with issues with the EPS components.

  4. #4
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    If Campy USA told me the sky was blue, I'd step outside and check.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    If Campy USA told me the sky was blue, I'd step outside and check.
    True. They apparently can't even install a bottom bracket correctly. Poor Rokh. Who the hell is Campy USA anyway? I know for a fact I could do a better job than whoever the hell it is.
    use a torque wrench

  6. #6
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    Campy (USA) says the chain line is at the wrong angle.
    That's what we are talking about. Pure BS.


    OP in your other thread you said
    I had it set up by a top Campy shop.
    If they really are a top shop, with experience with EPS, why not take it back and have them make it right?

    Or are they just pretending?

    Did they follow the installation and setup instructions?
    Last edited by bikerjulio; 03-02-2016 at 03:44 AM.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  7. #7
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    I'm not saying I'm any good, but I installed three different EPS systems on my bikes and it's simple. The adjustments are even easier. Have you played with the adjustments yourself?

    Bicycles are a very simple machine with little to go wrong. Follow the basics and do not assume. If you have everything Campagnolo, it just makes it that much easier.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    That's what we are talking about. Pure BS.
    Yep, and there's no way to put this delicately. It's physically impossible for any given road bike to have any significant difference in chainline unless it does have a wildly different geometry, or a wildly different bottom bracket. Turns out that all road bikes are very, very close in geometry, and bottom brackets are standardized to the point where the distance of the chainrings from the symmetry line of the bike is identical.

    Long story short: Complete BS. I really wonder what kinds of clowns are answering the phones at Campy USA...

  9. #9
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    I'm not getting into your issue with Campy USA, but I've done a number of EPS installs and found the front derailleur the most time consuming. Let me offer this advice:
    1. Go to the small chainring
    2. Go to whatever cog that causes the FD outer cage to line up with the large chainring (probably middle or lower cogs).
    3. set the FD height to 1-2 mm above the chainring
    4. (This is the most important part) Align the outer cage of the FD to the chainring. I recommend holding something against the chainring, like a popsicle stick, and rotating it past the FD. This has to be perfect.
    5. Go back to zero-setting the FD
    6. Use the micro-adjustment as needed.

    I recommend you use a chain catcher (FD-SR003).

  10. #10
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    I had a similar shifting problem with Record on my Bianchi Sempre. Rear worked fine, front was garbage. A poster on another forum made some suggestions and based on them I took off the FD, and put it back on using the Campagnolo FD alignment tool. Took 15 seconds and it shifts like a dream. The new FD design is very, very touchy and everything has to be perfect.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for all your replies and insights. Sorry for late reply -- had major work issues. Campy USA came to my bike shop to inspect the bike. Said it was perfectly set up. And said it worked perfectly on the stand, but did not take the time to ride the bike. I live in the mountains with 25% pitches. I had a 36/52 chain ring set up on the front and a 12/29 in back. So I was at max gear load. The shop owner with the De Rosa distributor's input as well thought my EPS system was too close to the red line. So two weeks ago the shop switched to a 36/50 chain ring combination in front and 11/29 in back. I spoke to Campy USA on the phone and the tech said this should solve the situation. It didn't. Front derailleur would still not upshift. The chain would just drag on the big chain ring and not engage. I could sometimes get it to work but it was inconsistent and the problem got worse during my two hour test ride. Would only shift to the big chain ring if I was in the fourth to fifth cog up in back with absolutely no load. I had to be going down hill. Now instead of the chain dropping on the inside and damaging the frame, it would sometimes drop on the outside gashing up my Super Record carbon cranks. Campy USA told the shop twice they would send a tech to try and fix the issue, but he never showed. Now at square one: Campy says EPS will never work right on the Protos because the Protos was not designed to Campy specs. De Rosa distributor says it is Campy's problem. It's just one big blame game, with Campy or De Rosa pointing the finger at each other rather than trying to resolve the issue. So my Protos still sits in the shop. I have great respect for shop. The owner replaced the first frame damaged from the chain drop and repaired the second. He has never seen such a mess.

  12. #12
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    Just an FYI:
    I used 36/52 with a 12/29 at Killington SR, Catskills and Green Mountain SR. It worked perfectly.
    On one of my frames, I needed the FD Stiffener to make it work right.
    I am curious about what does not meet their spec. They do have very clear requirements, but I'm surprised that they would say it doesn't meet spec without being more specific.

  13. #13
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    see post #6
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyb1000 View Post
    Just an FYI:
    I used 36/52 with a 12/29 at Killington SR, Catskills and Green Mountain SR. It worked perfectly.
    On one of my frames, I needed the FD Stiffener to make it work right.
    I am curious about what does not meet their spec. They do have very clear requirements, but I'm surprised that they would say it doesn't meet spec without being more specific.
    Just an additional comment after thinking about this over night. The frame (Colnago President) that I needed the stiffener on had a bolt-on derailleur hanger. It allowed the derailleur to flex, and I was having problems with the chain coming off. I would pose this as an idea to your LBS.
    (I have 3 EPS and 1 mech bike. I routinely swap wheels, cassettes and cranks between bikes without any issues).

    FYI, the Derosa website has a photo of the Protos with EPS (with chain catcher)
    Last edited by joeyb1000; 03-11-2016 at 06:27 AM.

  15. #15
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    Possible cause

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyb1000 View Post
    Just an additional comment after thinking about this over night. The frame (Colnago President) that I needed the stiffener on had a bolt-on derailleur hanger. It allowed the derailleur to flex, and I was having problems with the chain coming off. I would pose this as an idea to your LBS.
    (I have 3 EPS and 1 mech bike. I routinely swap wheels, cassettes and cranks between bikes without any issues).

    FYI, the Derosa website has a photo of the Protos with EPS (with chain catcher)

    Could it be that the bottom bracket is on the narrow side, and perhaps some people's riding style pushes the crank to compress the wavy washer such that the crank can move sideways half a mm or so and at some point move back? I know on my Madone if I leave out one of the spacer washers inside the BB this can happen (never had this with the washers and wavy washer but in theory the wavy washer can compress and mess up the chainring position relative to the fderailleur. Frames like the Madone that cannot use the C clip might also be more susceptible but might still move with the clip.

    Does this frame have integrated cups that do not allow use of the clip?

    Doe

  16. #16
    tka
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericjacobsen3 View Post
    Could it be that the bottom bracket is on the narrow side, and perhaps some people's riding style pushes the crank to compress the wavy washer such that the crank can move sideways half a mm or so and at some point move back? I know on my Madone if I leave out one of the spacer washers inside the BB this can happen (never had this with the washers and wavy washer but in theory the wavy washer can compress and mess up the chainring position relative to the fderailleur. Frames like the Madone that cannot use the C clip might also be more susceptible but might still move with the clip.

    Does this frame have integrated cups that do not allow use of the clip?

    Doe
    To the best of my knowledge all the Campagnolo right cups have the correct groove and holes to use the clip, no matter which BB standard you use, integrated included. You WILL have issues if you install the DS without the clip, as this is what locates the chainset. The wavy washer is used to take up the slop on the NDS and does nothing to position the chainrings.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tka View Post
    To the best of my knowledge all the Campagnolo right cups have the correct groove and holes to use the clip, no matter which BB standard you use, integrated included. You WILL have issues if you install the DS without the clip, as this is what locates the chainset. The wavy washer is used to take up the slop on the NDS and does nothing to position the chainrings.

    Some (all?) integrated cup frames like the Madone don't use the C clips at all. I assume they need to use a tighter width tolerance for the integrated cups as a result. A frame that cannot use the clip and has the looser tolerance of a regular shell could have problems.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericjacobsen3 View Post
    Some (all?) integrated cup frames like the Madone don't use the C clips at all. I assume they need to use a tighter width tolerance for the integrated cups as a result. A frame that cannot use the clip and has the looser tolerance of a regular shell could have problems.
    Rather than speculating, it took me all of 5 seconds to look it up.

    The frame is BB86 for which Campy makes cups, which use a clip in the regular way. If installed by a competent person that is. Which in this case i'm not so sure about. I was on another thread a while ago, where it was apparent that even Campy USA did not understand the function of the retaining clip.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by runrun View Post
    Thanks for all your replies and insights. Sorry for late reply -- had major work issues. Campy USA came to my bike shop to inspect the bike. Said it was perfectly set up. And said it worked perfectly on the stand, but did not take the time to ride the bike. I live in the mountains with 25% pitches. I had a 36/52 chain ring set up on the front and a 12/29 in back. So I was at max gear load. The shop owner with the De Rosa distributor's input as well thought my EPS system was too close to the red line. So two weeks ago the shop switched to a 36/50 chain ring combination in front and 11/29 in back. I spoke to Campy USA on the phone and the tech said this should solve the situation. It didn't. Front derailleur would still not upshift. The chain would just drag on the big chain ring and not engage. I could sometimes get it to work but it was inconsistent and the problem got worse during my two hour test ride. Would only shift to the big chain ring if I was in the fourth to fifth cog up in back with absolutely no load. I had to be going down hill. Now instead of the chain dropping on the inside and damaging the frame, it would sometimes drop on the outside gashing up my Super Record carbon cranks. Campy USA told the shop twice they would send a tech to try and fix the issue, but he never showed. Now at square one: Campy says EPS will never work right on the Protos because the Protos was not designed to Campy specs. De Rosa distributor says it is Campy's problem. It's just one big blame game, with Campy or De Rosa pointing the finger at each other rather than trying to resolve the issue. So my Protos still sits in the shop. I have great respect for shop. The owner replaced the first frame damaged from the chain drop and repaired the second. He has never seen such a mess.
    My God!!!

    This is my EXACT issue with this same frame, but with Chorus mechanical.
    I get the FD set up as best as i possibly can (30+ years experience) and i cant get the FD to shift up to the big ring.
    Not only that, it takes super-human effort to move the FD outwards at all.

    I havent read through the entire thread yet, so im hoping someone has found a solution here, cuz I'm going insane

  20. #20
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    issue solved
    i'm either a total genius, or a total dumb-ass
    i inserted a length of the thin cable sheath through the bottom bracket section, where the cable makes the turn around over the metal cable guide.
    Voila

    is this the standard for internal cable routing?

    i hope OP reads this. i sent him (or her) a PM

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