Folks, FYI while I posted way back that an 11s derailleur shifts 10 speed great with the latest generation 10s levers, I can now confirm after 40 miles...
That the current 10s Veloce derailleur that has the folded over looking outer plate like 11 speed derailleurs, shifts 11 speed perfectly (better in fact than my 2 year old Athena derailleur or my 3 year old Chorus). Not just acceptably but perfectly across the cassette, shifts even if you click up or down before yet pedaling. Of course this is with 11s levers.
So, if you want to save a few bucks on a budget 11s setup, feel free to use a Veloce rear derailleur, regardless of what the upselling Campy site says.
All this makes complete sense as:
Campy advertises the latest 10s derailleurs and previous 10s derailleurs to be compatible with the same latest gen 10s levers.
Latest 10s derailleurs have the narrrower 11s pulley width, as reported right on the campy web site.
C40s old report of old 10s derailleurs needing the cable tweak for 11s to barely work still makes sense given those old 10s derailleurs have the wide pulleys causing the cage to hit the chain late even with the throws being the same.
Having said that, a close comparison between the Athena and Velcoe derailleurs does show most of the Athena derailleur to be finely crafted. I see the following differences:
Newer Athena has an alloy fixing bolt (my Athena is steel being the year before this change)
Athena has hollow pulley screws (nice touch) but Veloce are solid
Athena has the very thick but hollowed out forged cage that looks really beefy and must be stiffest of any Campy cage (perhaps nominally supporting Campy's logic to only promote the best hardware for 11s). In reality it doesn't seem to affect the quickness of Athena shifts. I am sure the Athena cage is stiffer than the thin Record carbon.
I cannot detect any different offset of the cable fixing bolt from the pivots that would result in a different throw/ cable pull.
It's sometimes difficult to keep track of the unannounced running changes that Campy makes, but I suspect that the improvement in shifting with the new Veloce RD my be the result of a stronger spring in the RD's said to have been introduced a couple of years ago.
If it's of any interest, I have always used the "old style" Centaur RDs with the narrow parallelogram [from the early 2000s up to around 2010 (?)]. But I have now also got a mid-cage "wraparound" parallelogram Veloce as well, not sure if it's 2014 or 2015 model year.
1. Indexing is identical to the "old style" RDs.
2. With the H-screw backed out it does lift a little higher than the "old style" RD. My "old style" RD will clear a 29t cog OK, the "wraparound" could take a few more teeth. It doesn't actually shift any better with a 29t, the "old style" shifts just fine, even with a compact chainset.
3. It has 10 tooth wheels, the same wheels as my "old style" Centaurs.
4. It has a substantially stronger parallelogram spring - the spring which pulls cable through when you shift with the thumb button.
Last item might explain why I could never pass the Campag "1 kg lift test"??? My old style RDs, aged from about 2002 up to 2010 or so, will only pull about 0.6 kg. I haven't tested my "wraparound" RD but I bet it pulls 1 kg - so its spring might be nearly twice as strong??
I remember Velotech saying that some frames with internal routing had problems with cable friction, maybe the stronger spring is to solve that problem??
I can feel the difference when shifting - it takes significantly more effort on the finger paddle to make a shift. I don't like it, but it's purely personal preference. On the other hand, my winter bike frame has poor cable routing and it's always been marginal for shift quality, the "wraparound" RD does seem to take away the marginality.
I've only tried 11s shifters on 11s derailleurs, but this shouldn't be surprising. I recall some guy designed a disc to fit into the 10s ultrashift levers (pre-2009) which converted them to 11s, also using the older design 10s derailleurs. It was on some comment thread or another and he'd put his demo/spiel up on YouTube. That said, I prefer the newer lever shape and the oversize cage plates on the new rear mechs seem to be stiffer and lighter than the previous design as well.
...though I suspect that any apparent 'improvement' in shifting quality with a new install also has a lot to do with using new cables and housing! I am currently retrofitting an old steel race frame with 11s Athena, I suppose I could have saved a few bucks using a 10s Veloce or Centaur rear derailleur, although it's nowhere near the price difference between the upgrades into Chorus and beyond. One thing to be said about Campy, they no longer make cheap rear derailleurs, relative to any other manufacturer.
Thanks for the update. I still wish I had a pair of 2009-2010 and 2011+ 10 speeds to measure cable pull and eliminate that variable once and for all... but I'm not buying two sets of shifters (on top of the QS Chorus and Athena11 I already own) just for testing purposes.
Either way, good to know what works. Thanks for the detailed post!
10s shifter cable pull has been the same since early 2003 for both Ergopower and Ultrashifter aka newer design. 11s Ultrashifter cable pull is a bit less 2.6mm/click versus 2.8mm/click of 10s.
HTH.
Thanks OP for sharing your creativity.
Crazy question but here goes. I'm upgrading from a Veloce 9 sp triple to 10 sp. The only part I plan on keeping is the crankset. Would it make sense to just go 11? Has anyone ever done the swap on the old 9 sp chainrings? The new triple cranks, even Veloce, are not at all inexpensive.
I think it comes down to personal opinion or preference really. If you keep a triple in front...btw I am a fan of triples for mountain riding....then this takes some of the benefit away of 11s for another cog in back. True benefit of 11s versus 10s is tighter cog spacing for the same diversity of gearing. A triple keeps gear spacing nice and close together. So I believe you would be happy with 10s. 10s Campy tends to be a bit cheaper...cassettes in particular.
But there are other considerations as well, like multiple gear changes that are specific to Chorus level 11s only unless you have older 10s Centaur 10s shifters.
So we each have a different opinion on what is best based upon our strength and riding conditions.
I will say further, if you are considering a groupset change, consider changing your crank and going 11s X 2 chainrings in front. A compact with slightly larger small ring with a wide cassette in back is a great set up and will get you up most hills just fine. But if you climb a lot of steep stuff...and long steep stuff, few setups rival a triple for not only gear spacing but climbing and descending gear inches.
If you want good prices on Campy stuff, consider buying out of the UK.
Good luck
Whether or not the chainring spacing is going to work with both the chain and a modern left shifter on and old 9-spd triple. I don't know enough to answer.
The current triple shifters, ie Athena and Centaur, are the powershift types, so the fine adjustments are not there like they used to be.
Consider RW's suggestion of compact if your riding terrain allows. Bear in mind that Campy now offer 29T big sprockets, so a setup with 34-29 as the low gear is possible.
Since Ribble's mix and match pricing is the same as their group pricing, it makes sense to buy a mix of components like Chorus shifters, and Athena for the rest, or even some Veloce as this thread discusses.
If you really need a triple, then I'd be inclined to think you would much better off buying the complete matching setup of crankset, chain, FD and shifter. There have been a lot of little changes since the days of 9-speed.
OP,
As bikerjulio wrote, the big game changer for modern 2 chainring set ups with a lot of cogs in back, is the new more popular 28-32...(32 for Shimano) large cogs. This in combination with a 2 chainring compact in front is close to gearing of granny triple ring with smaller larger cog. More cogs in back makes a large cassette more rideable because spacing is closer together versus say 8-9 speed cassettes from yesterday.
I in fact ride on my Campy bike 50-38 with 29-13 because I live in flat country but 38-29 gets me up the little steep stuff I have. Easy to change cassette based upon where you ride...in my case both...paste on a 34t ring and a different cassette if I need it.
Gearing is largely personal really but the bigger cassettes with more cogs in back are more double crankset friendly then ever before.
Whether or not the chainring spacing is going to work with both the chain and a modern left shifter on and old 9-spd triple. I don't know enough to answer.
The current triple shifters, ie Athena and Centaur, are the powershift types, so the fine adjustments are not there like they used to be.
Consider RW's suggestion of compact if your riding terrain allows. Bear in mind that Campy now offer 29T big sprockets, so a setup with 34-29 as the low gear is possible.
Since Ribble's mix and match pricing is the same as their group pricing, it makes sense to buy a mix of components like Chorus shifters, and Athena for the rest, or even some Veloce as this thread discusses.
I don't have both to measure, but to answer indirectly I can say that a 10-spd FD works just fine on an 11-spd setup. I have a Chorus 11 and Athena 11 on different bikes, both with 10-spd FD's. Work great.
Well, because I was practically forced into it over on another forum, I got around to installing an older Centaur 10-spd RD on my Chorus 11 bike. My conclusion is that the ratios are identical, and that the Centaur will index with the big and small cogs perfectly, and all steps in between.
Here's the condensed version of those posts.
Test mule has Chorus shifters, 12-29 cassette, 52/36 rings, KMC chain. Neutron Ultra wheels.
Centaur RD came off a 10-spd bike with Campy hubs.
Hanger alignment was checked and was spot on.
Installed, and had it shifting perfectly on the stand after a couple of minutes. Only adjustment was to the inner stop as the 11 speed big cog is a little closer to the wheel that on the 10 speed bike that the RD was borrowed from. Obviously, if one forgot to adjust the inner stop, the RD wouldn't travel enough.
Shifts perfectly and quietly across the cassette on both the small and big ring.
Checked travel without chain which I should have done first. Stops out. Upper pulley indexed perfectly to the 12 and 29 T cogs.
I can only think that Campy marketing use of the phrase "Parallelogram with 11s geometry" in relation to it's RD's was deliberately intended to make us believe there had been a ratio change, to lure us into buying 11-speed RD's. It worked with me for one.
If it helps that Centaur is just a rebadged Chorus one from prior years... So technically your components still match!
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