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  1. #1
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    Colnago C60 speculation

    There's buzz that Colnago is getting ready to update the c59. Given what we see Colnago has done with the c59 in terms of disc brakes and what the competition has done regarding stiffness and weight any speculation as to how the C60 will differ from the C59?

    My own guess is the weight comes down a little but not much, that the new frame is more geared toward disc brakes and they claim a slightly stiffer ride. Also willing to speculate that the c60 is evolutionary more than revolutionary in much the same way the c59 was an improvement over the c50 and the c50 an improvement over the c40.

    Anyone better insights?

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    My prediction is they finally end all production in Italy and move the C60 to Taiwan.

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    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfend View Post
    My prediction is they finally end all production in Italy and move the C60 to Taiwan.
    That would be sad. I have to say that it wouldn't surprise me. They laid off all the painters years ago. The C59 is kind of ugly. No cool paint jobs anymore. And disc brakes ... Gawd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    That would be sad. I have to say that it wouldn't surprise me. They laid off all the painters years ago. The C59 is kind of ugly. No cool paint jobs anymore. And disc brakes ... Gawd.
    Saw a c-40 the other day. Although the c59 and c50 ride much better, I must say, the c40 grabs me more , style wise. Paint job is better.

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    I think Colnago is wedded to lugged frames. Also doubt they give up on making the high end bike in Italy. At a high enough price the extra labor cost is covered, plus the marketing of the top end helps sell the lower end Taiwan produced stuff. If they were to give up on making the c60 in Italy they would have nothing to convince people to buy their bike over a Pinarello.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    I think Colnago is wedded to lugged frames. Also doubt they give up on making the high end bike in Italy. At a high enough price the extra labor cost is covered, plus the marketing of the top end helps sell the lower end Taiwan produced stuff. If they were to give up on making the c60 in Italy they would have nothing to convince people to buy their bike over a Pinarello.
    That's one way to look at it.

    Another would be: At a high enough labor cost the marketing doesn't result in high enough profit margin to offset the cost and they are running out of ways to convince people their old methods offer any advantage over Pinarello's more modern procedure.

    A good bike is a good bike regardless of how it's put together so I'm not trying to say there's anything inferior about the way they do things with the C50. But public perception may be swinging that way and from a maketing and profit stand point something might have to give.

    They make some great bikes......don't get me wrong. But other than romantic value I don't see lugged by hand construction offering any advantage.
    Last edited by Jay Strongbow; 10-20-2013 at 01:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post

    But other than romantic value I don't see lugged by hand construction offering any advantage.
    Perception is reality. Lot of bike features offer questionable benefit, but they are part of the branding. For the top line Colnago the things they have not changed are lugs, octagonal tubing and being hand made. Unlike Pinarello , Colnago has not been known to make major style changes on this model, my guess is those things stay for the c60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    . . . plus the marketing of the top end helps sell the lower end Taiwan produced stuff.
    At $4,000 for a frameset the M10 (made in Taiwan) doesn't cost "lower end." I bet the C60 will be made in the far east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    At $4,000 for a frameset the M10 (made in Taiwan) doesn't cost "lower end." I bet the C60 will be made in the far east.
    Well, in the short-run that might make the c-59 frames go for more value. Personally, the made in Italy factor was a variable considered when I went Colnago. When putting out that much cash, whether perception or reality, I view made in Italy superior to made in Taiwan.

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    disc brakes aren't approved by the UCI, so it's not likely Colnago would make their top end model more disc-brake oriented (besides, there's not much more they could do in that regard that what's already on the 59 option).

    Frankly, Colnago needs to make a top end frameset that weighs less than 1,600 grams if they want to be anything other than a niche for hobbyists who fetish the brand. Making a billion sizes is fine, but the fact that nearly everyone can be fit on a smaller range of frame sizes undermines their justification of lugs. Lugs are heavy and just introduce potential failure points. Just read about another Italian team dropping Colnago and going with Cipollini bkes. If someone wanted to over-spend on a made in Italy frame, one of Cipo's would be a better option - and it comes with a warranty that is 5x longer than Colnago.

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    Wow, editorial overload.
    Have any of you ever owned a Colnago?
    Lugs introduce potential failure?
    People, teams make frame decisions based on one thing.
    Colnago is all about ride quality, NOT weight.

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    so why do riders like Rolland choose the M10 over the c59 for alpine stages? Because a Colnago made by Giant in Taiwan is lighter and stiffer than the Italy made c59. Re lugs, again, ask any dealer about Colnago failures. Almost inevitably it involves a lug. I owned a Colnago when steel frames were state of the art. They have no competitive advantage in carbon.


    Quote Originally Posted by mriddle View Post
    Wow, editorial overload.
    Have any of you ever owned a Colnago?
    Lugs introduce potential failure?
    People, teams make frame decisions based on one thing.
    Colnago is all about ride quality, NOT weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mriddle View Post
    Wow, editorial overload.
    Have any of you ever owned a Colnago?
    Lugs introduce potential failure?
    People, teams make frame decisions based on one thing.
    Colnago is all about ride quality, NOT weight.

    The team switch was probably about money/sponsorship, not about the bike. 100 grams translate to 3 ounces. Sometimes I think people lose track of that and the fact there are weight minimums on road bikes.

  14. #14
    pmf
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    Some observations here ...

    1. There's a weight restriction in pro riding -- in most cases they have to add weight to their bikes. Heavier saddles, power tap hubs, etc are a lot more common. From the rider stand point, its probably a good thing not to have to resort to silly light components to get a small advantage.

    2. Who knows why some pros choose what they choose. Just because some rider chooses the M10 over the C59 when its a hilly stage doesn't mean one frame is better than another. It's just personal preference. Unfortunately, most of us don't get to try the entire Colnago line to see what we prefer in different situations.

    3. To say that lugs introduce potential failure points is just plain silly. Most frames will fail where one tube meets another, be that lugged, glued, or molded.

    4. Lugs may seem old fashioned in todays world of monocoque frames, but there are reasons for using them. They have a nice ride quality. They allow Colnago to customize the geometry of a frame. They allow Colnago to offer more sizes than most companies who sell molded frames.

    5. The C59 frame is quite a bit lighter than 1600 grams.

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    1. Thomas Voeckler's c59 comes in 140 grams over the UCI weight limit - that's a size 52 with 1230 gram tubular wheels.

    2. Rolland picked the M10 because it's 1)lighter and 2) stiffer than the c59. Why would he pick a heavier, less stiff frame for a stage like alpe d'huez?

    3. Tour magazine, among others, have done lots of destructive testing with long cycles of high load and almost inevitably lugged frames (steel or carbon) break at a lug junction. There are no tubes in monocoque carbon frames or joints as in a traditional lugged frame. Many use continuous fibers, which is structurally superior to a lug. The extreme c high failure rate at lugs illustrates the problem with lugs. Even Look has gone away from them, as did Serotta in later model years.

    4. There are no engineering reasons to use lugs with carbon frames, but many reasons not to. The issue of having 20 size frames is also a non-starter, since 99.9% of riders can be fit on a smaller range of frame sizes.

    5. I gave the weight for the c59 frameset. Real world weight for a 56 (M) sized frame is 1200 grams and average fork weight is 400 grams (many on weight weenies coming in closer to 420 grams).



    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Some observations here ...

    1. There's a weight restriction in pro riding -- in most cases they have to add weight to their bikes. Heavier saddles, power tap hubs, etc are a lot more common. From the rider stand point, its probably a good thing not to have to resort to silly light components to get a small advantage.

    2. Who knows why some pros choose what they choose. Just because some rider chooses the M10 over the C59 when its a hilly stage doesn't mean one frame is better than another. It's just personal preference. Unfortunately, most of us don't get to try the entire Colnago line to see what we prefer in different situations.

    3. To say that lugs introduce potential failure points is just plain silly. Most frames will fail where one tube meets another, be that lugged, glued, or molded.

    4. Lugs may seem old fashioned in todays world of monocoque frames, but there are reasons for using them. They have a nice ride quality. They allow Colnago to customize the geometry of a frame. They allow Colnago to offer more sizes than most companies who sell molded frames.

    5. The C59 frame is quite a bit lighter than 1600 grams.

  16. #16
    pmf
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    .... oh, why bother ...

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    the thread is about speculations on the next generation c59 - I speculated that Colnago would finally drop the lugged construction and go in the direction of the M10, which is the technically better frameset. I wouldn't be the first person to claim that Colnago's traditionalism is holding them back - there are even threads on that topic on this site. Your list was full of factual inaccuracies and obfuscations (such as the claim that Rolland's choice of the M10 wasn't based on more than a subjective preference which is counter to his own claims and objective differences between the frames). Who knows, maybe they'll even adopt a new bottom bracket standard...






    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    .... oh, why bother ...

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    I totally agree with Steve's quote. Lugs are dead, and exist for purely nostalgic reasons.

  19. #19
    pmf
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    Whatever. I know I'm right, and you know you're right, and we both know Campy is better than Shimano, so let's just have a beer and enjoy the weekend.

    For the record, I bet you $5 that the C60 will be lugged and made in Italy. Ernesto knows what's good. So do I.

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    I have had the opportunity to ride a lot of bikes made of Al ,TI,and carbon and my Time with lugs has the best ride "feel" of any i have ridden.I think the lug bikes appeal to older riders who have owned steel or TI bikes before(and have the cheese to afford them).Did you guys read the Velo news test last year that had the C59 and 3 other pro tour bikes?It was right up there in the stiffness jig and had the best handling but they also said the Evo was a better bike for less $.IMO the C60 will be made in Italy with lugs no matter how much it costs.It is their top drawer bike and they could loose money on each and every one but will still sell them because it is a icon for the brand.

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    Actually, I agree with you on this part - it will be lugged and made in Italy. My guess is that they'll reduce output, increase price (probably emphasize the partnership with Ferrari more) and it will increasingly become a boutique, hobbyist frame for those willing to pay a large premium for a made in Italy traditional frameset. Meanwhile, the M10 will morph into a more innovative frame line with a press fit BB (like the CX zero), further weight reduction, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Whatever. I know I'm right, and you know you're right, and we both know Campy is better than Shimano, so let's just have a beer and enjoy the weekend.

    For the record, I bet you $5 that the C60 will be lugged and made in Italy. Ernesto knows what's good. So do I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    I totally agree with Steve's quote. Lugs are dead, and exist for purely nostalgic reasons.
    In part, but they differentiate the brand. Lugs or not, you can still make a great road bike, but the reason why moncoque frames are so popular with the makers is they are cheaper to produce, not because they are better.

    The C-60 will weigh less because that's been the trend of Colnago and the market, and the market deems any new frame which does not weigh less that a prior version as not an upgrade.
    Last edited by Trek_5200; 10-25-2013 at 02:49 PM.

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    On the subject of lugs let's not forget that Trek USA made 6 and 7 series Madone use lug construction and the Madone always has you just can't see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cannonf600 View Post
    On the subject of lugs let's not forget that Trek USA made 6 and 7 series Madone use lug construction and the Madone always has you just can't see them.
    If we change the word carbon to steel we see that lugs mostly serve aesthetics. Most riders will say there's no difference between a good welded frame or a lugged one. But in carbon it's hard to escape the fact that lugged frames tend to be hand built and monocoque more mass produced and one size fits all.

  25. #25
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    In part, but they differentiate the brand. Lugs or not, you can still make a great road bike, but the reason why moncoque frames are so popular with the makers is they are cheaper to produce, not because they are better.

    The C-60 will weigh less because that's been the trend of Colnago and the market, and the market deems any new frame which does not weigh less that a prior version as not an upgrade.
    For the record, I was riding and racing a kestrel 200 Sci in the early 1990's. All my "steel is real" friends laughed at me for riding a "plastic" bike. It was a monocoque frame. I rode the hell out of that bike. Years later I had a custom C40 built for me. It was a nicer riding bike, but not by a lot and carbon had come a bit more high tech over the last decade. The mono bikes these days are made purely for economic reasons IMO. They're just as good inmost aspects, but ask me what I'd choose, money aside, and I'd definitely want a C60. Colnago doesn't pass the benefit cost test in general. Especially if you buy a Taiwan version.

    Bikes are hype. Frankly, my fave is my Eddy Merckx zero-uno Corsa. closely followed by my old Litespeed ultimate.I don't ride my C40 all that much. Stiffer ain't necessarily better. Frankly, give me 5k for a new frame and it would a Fancy one off Steel frame builder. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of money these days .... Kids.

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