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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Speak for yourself, Marc. I'm just going by 35 years of riding out of the Potomac River valley, a stint in So Cal, good mountains there. And a spell in the rolling hills of ETX.

    In the 80s and before, the pros put on a 26 for the mountains and 42-26 would do it for them. Heck, until Shimano brought out slant parallelogram, Campy derailleurs could only handle up to a 26 on a standard 52/42 chainring setup. Nobody complained. The bikes were 5# heavier.

    What is your experience in the mountains of Nebraska? When do you go into the 34-30; what's the cadence; how fast are you going? Then we have some comparisons to debate. "So laughably wrong it is funny..." ain't a great opening line.
    We have strong gusty surface winds most weeks that'll put strong riders in their 34/25, and start resorting to mashing as they're out of gears....and will cause weak riders to ask for a body wagon.

    Happens every year on Tour de Nebraska. Nebraska's windage is rather like Normandy. Don't need mountains when you have 15+MPH surface winds.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    We have strong gusty surface winds most weeks that'll put strong riders in their 34/25, and start resorting to mashing as they're out of gears....and will cause weak riders to ask for a body wagon.

    Happens every year on Tour de Nebraska. Nebraska's windage is rather like Normandy. Don't need mountains when you have 15+MPH surface winds.
    Weak riders, you mean middle aged guys in mid life crisis with enough disposable income they can give up the Corvette and buy a Pinarello F8? So he's gotta have wide rims and 28mm tires to carry his weight, and four really low gears so he can fine tune his crawl up the hills between 10 mph and stalling out at 4 or 5 mph?

    I've had limited experience with 15+ headwinds, but the worst in memory was the coastal highway south of Rehoboth, MD. Going north, I'd be spinning in 52-13 like Bernard Hinault, 30 mph easy as pie. Coming back, however, was a struggle in 42-24 at 10 mph, but still could leave the 28 alone.

    42-28 @ 60 rpm is 7.1 mph. Below 6 mph, it's a track stand. I start to fall off the bike. The steepest grades I've encountered have been doable around 6-9 mph at lactate threshold. 34-25 @ 80 rpm is 8.6 mph; 34-23 @ 80 rpm is 9.3 mph, all doable in the hills and in 15-20 mph headwinds IME, for riders with a few miles in their legs. I guess those gears were what your friends were using.

    34-28 @ 60 rpm is only 5.7 mph. Yep, that gear may have been welcomed a few times, but eventually, I'd be spun out and breathless, like the legs were working the crank frantically up to 90 rpm, and I wasn't getting anywhere, going only 8 mph. So little momentum. I'd want to work at around 70 rpm, so would shift up a gear. 42-28 has done it quite well at those speeds, 7.1 mph at 60 rpm, 9.5 mph at 80 rpm, 10.6 mph at 90 rpm. Club riders go 10-12 mph up the climbs consistently.

    Heck, 34-30 @ 60 rpm is 5.3 mph. When's the last time you've gone that slow up a hill or into a headwind?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Weak riders, you mean middle aged guys in mid life crisis with enough disposable income they can give up the Corvette and buy a Pinarello F8? So he's gotta have wide rims and 28mm tires to carry his weight, and four really low gears so he can fine tune his crawl up the hills between 10 mph and stalling out at 4 or 5 mph?

    I've had limited experience with 15+ headwinds, but the worst in memory was the coastal highway south of Rehoboth, MD. Going north, I'd be spinning in 52-13 like Bernard Hinault, 30 mph easy as pie. Coming back, however, was a struggle in 42-24 at 10 mph, but still could leave the 28 alone.

    42-28 @ 60 rpm is 7.1 mph. Below 6 mph, it's a track stand. I start to fall off the bike. The steepest grades I've encountered have been doable around 6-9 mph at lactate threshold. 34-25 @ 80 rpm is 8.6 mph; 34-23 @ 80 rpm is 9.3 mph, all doable in the hills and in 15-20 mph headwinds IME, for riders with a few miles in their legs. I guess those gears were what your friends were using.

    34-28 @ 60 rpm is only 5.7 mph. Yep, that gear may have been welcomed a few times, but eventually, I'd be spun out and breathless, like the legs were working the crank frantically up to 90 rpm, and I wasn't getting anywhere, going only 8 mph. So little momentum. I'd want to work at around 70 rpm, so would shift up a gear. 42-28 has done it quite well at those speeds, 7.1 mph at 60 rpm, 9.5 mph at 80 rpm, 10.6 mph at 90 rpm. Club riders go 10-12 mph up the climbs consistently.

    Heck, 34-30 @ 60 rpm is 5.3 mph. When's the last time you've gone that slow up a hill or into a headwind?
    A 34-30 (1.13) is about between a 30-25 (1.11). Which was needed this last week on my commute 50% of the time. Nasty winds, and being winter--took a "50F" ambient and made it feel frigid.

    Could use a taller gear, if I sacrificed a spinning 90 cadence for it....but I want to have knees later.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Could use a taller gear, if I sacrificed a spinning 90 cadence for it....but I want to have knees later.
    This!!! But remember, Fredrico doesn't need knees, he has a big Johnson bragging (most likely lying) about mashing up 15% grades in his 53x11 gear combo!
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    . Heck, 34-30 @ 60 rpm is 5.3 mph. When's the last time you've gone that slow up a hill or into a headwind?
    Most every Tuesday this year.

  6. #31
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    I have a 53 x 42, 13-26 on my 80's X4. This gearing seems fine. I do end up standing on the 15% + grades but that's fine.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    This!!! But remember, Fredrico doesn't need knees, he has a big Johnson bragging (most likely lying) about mashing up 15% grades in his 53x11 gear combo!
    One guy on Tour de Nebraska...he's a friggin stud.

    He pulls a customized Burley trailer behind him with probably 60lbs of gear on/in it. And grinds maybe a 45 cadence. It is truly a sight to see...as he fishtails down the road rather like a Sidewinder snake. Just don't try to draft him.


    Course in 10 or 20 years he won't have knees, but it is still impressive.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    As far as pointing out you are wrong goes he can definitely speak for me and I'm guessing also speak for anyone else familiar with your macho gear grinder comedy act.
    Ba-dum, ching!

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    But you're not going to have "huge" jumps in the rear, all single tooth jumps, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, if lucky 16, 17, and then two tooth jumps, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 at the slower speeds at which the legs can handle a two tooth jump without spinning out or going anaerobic. The slower the speed, the easier the legs pick up the cadences.

    Sure, if rider thinks he needs a 30 or 34 in back, he should go to compact crank. But then, he's giving up a nice gear, the 42, for riding on the flats, and reducing the large ring to a wimpy 50 teeth which will spin out once the group starts going 30 mph on the downgrades. Still have the 50 used many years ago, but missed the high end, so put the 52 or 53 back on. So I would advise OP to keep the 53 and 42, and eliminate the 32 or 30, like I said, unless he's old, overweight, and lives in the mountains.
    Do you realize that a 1 tooth jump between the 11-12 is more of a difference than the 2 teeth between 25-27?
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    We have strong gusty surface winds most weeks that'll put strong riders in their 34/25, and start resorting to mashing as they're out of gears....and will cause weak riders to ask for a body wagon.

    Happens every year on Tour de Nebraska. Nebraska's windage is rather like Normandy. Don't need mountains when you have 15+MPH surface winds.

    15mph headwinds aren't that tough. When it get's up to 20-25, you start chewing the bar tape when you go to the front. Back in the late 90's, I had a 42 on my Bianchi. When I started riding it again, last year, occasionally, I put on a 39. Back in the day, a 42 was the smallest gear you could put on a Campy crank. Before that, it was a 44.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    15mph headwinds aren't that tough. When it get's up to 20-25, you start chewing the bar tape when you go to the front. Back in the late 90's, I had a 42 on my Bianchi. When I started riding it again, last year, occasionally, I put on a 39. Back in the day, a 42 was the smallest gear you could put on a Campy crank. Before that, it was a 44.
    Yeah man, when men were men. Haven't noticed observing the vets from that era how many are limping on bad knees. A few years ago, Eddy was still kicking everybody's a$$ on club rides in CA.

    My knees are fine, all because I learned how to spin, finally. That teaches a smooth stroke which, yes, saves the knees. What riders instinctively do when in hard gears is push down hard in a jabbing motion. That's what ruins the knees. A smooth pickup at the top of the stroke followed by a purposeful downstroke, aided by unloading the opposite pedal, rolls off the momentary pressure on the knees, while also strengthening the aerobic slow twitch muscle fibers, which, as Bernard Hinault said in his book, enable the legs to apportion stress over all the leg muscles and ligaments, not focused solely on the knees.

    It may seem ironic to some, but the way to learn how to handle hard gears is by learning how to spin at high cadences in easy gears. Then rider learns how to handle the same actions at slower cadences, as when climbing. Try it. Has nothing to do with pecker size. It is a counter-intuitive, learned experience and is the essence of "cycling," not to mention the best thing rider can do for his knees. My knees are fine after a good 150,000 miles over the last 35 years.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    15mph headwinds aren't that tough. When it get's up to 20-25, you start chewing the bar tape when you go to the front. Back in the late 90's, I had a 42 on my Bianchi. When I started riding it again, last year, occasionally, I put on a 39. Back in the day, a 42 was the smallest gear you could put on a Campy crank. Before that, it was a 44.
    What BCD could only take a 44? Is this back in the 3 bolt days?
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  13. #38
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    5 Bolt.......144mm bolt circle would take a 41 tooth ring, but everybody used a 42. With the old 151mm bolt circle, you could fit a 44 tooth ring.....The "old" record crankset started on 1958 and was replaced by the Super Record crank (with the 144mm B.C. in 1973)
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  14. #39
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    Back to the original question:

    42-53 & 11-34 at typical road cadences. Lots of big jumps in the shifts at higher speeds.


    36-52 & 11-28. The 36 chainring is good into the low 20 mph range, with nice cadence changes on each shift.


    I don't see any advantage to the 42-53. It would be nice with a closer range cassette on fairly flat rides, though. I really like my triple's 39 chainring with a 12-25 or a 12-29. That's good for a wide range of speeds on flat to rolling terrain.

  15. #40
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    At this time of year, I'll do indoor workout where I'll spin at 110-115 rpm for 4 minutes, and then throw it in a huge gear and honk out of the saddle for a minute. ...Repeat for an hour. Back in the day, I'd do all my local riding and racing with a 21 in back. 15 or so years ago, I started using a 23, plus a 25 for hilly rides. Just this year, I tried something new. I figured that if I put on a 12-28, I wouldn't have to use the small ring. A 53x28 is about the same as a 39x21. I still use the 12-23 most of the time, but when I ride with my mentor, I use the wheel with the 12-28.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post
    Back to the original question:

    42-53 & 11-34 at typical road cadences. Lots of big jumps in the shifts at higher speeds.


    36-52 & 11-28. The 36 chainring is good into the low 20 mph range, with nice cadence changes on each shift.


    I don't see any advantage to the 42-53. It would be nice with a closer range cassette on fairly flat rides, though. I really like my triple's 39 chainring with a 12-25 or a 12-29. That's good for a wide range of speeds on flat to rolling terrain.
    In the second graph, there's a big jump between 17 and 15 where another gear would be very useful. Get rid of the 11 and put a 16 in there. Get rid of the 12, too, and add an 18. Now there are lots of gears to work with at normal cycling speeds.

    The idea with closely spaced chain rings is having two overlapping gear ranges, one slightly harder than the other, with quick, painless shifting between the two, over most of the range of gears. Works great. 53-44 and 50-42 work even smoother and nicer on the legs. Don't know how riders can handle those 14 tooth and now 16 tooth jumps. No wonder guys are dropping chains.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Don't know how riders can handle those 14 tooth and now 16 tooth jumps. No wonder guys are dropping chains.
    Where are you coming up with this stuff? I have a 16 tooth jump and haven't dropped a chain in over 2,000 miles.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Where are you coming up with this stuff? I have a 16 tooth jump and haven't dropped a chain in over 2,000 miles.
    Why, that's incredible!

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Why, that's incredible!
    No, it really isn't.

    Having chain dropping issues, are we?
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  20. #45
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    Back in the days of chainrings without pickup pins, if was a common occurrence with 14 tooth jumps. That's one of the reasons why people used 52x42. Chainrings made in the last 10-15 years can handle just about anything you can throw at them, although a 19 tooth jump is rather iffy. That's why you don't see 53-34 often.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    Back in the days of chainrings without pickup pins, if was a common occurrence with 14 tooth jumps. That's one of the reasons why people used 52x42. Chainrings made in the last 10-15 years can handle just about anything you can throw at them, although a 19 tooth jump is rather iffy. That's why you don't see 53-34 often.
    My unpinned Mavic 53x39 chainrings don't throw the chain. I started as a mechanic well before pinned rings, and 14 tooth jumps were the norm on road bikes then. I would have been deeply embarrassed if the bikes I built threw the chain.

    Modern chainrings are more tolerant of poorly installed and adjusted front derailleurs.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    Back in the days of chainrings without pickup pins, if was a common occurrence with 14 tooth jumps. That's one of the reasons why people used 52x42. Chainrings made in the last 10-15 years can handle just about anything you can throw at them, although a 19 tooth jump is rather iffy. That's why you don't see 53-34 often.
    Pinned rings help the chain go from the lower to higher rings. They have nothing to do with preventing chain drops.

    If you are dropping your chain, it is either because your derailleur is improperly installed or adjusted or you have poor shifting technique. The last two generations of Shimano shifters are designed so when you shift from high to low, your derailleur goes into its high trim position on the low gear. The only time I have ever dropped a chain on my 5800 or 6800 systems is when I accidentally hit the lever twice and went to the low trim position. And I am one of those wimps that uses a 50/34 compact, not a super-sized Johnson he-man Fredrico gear masher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Has nothing to do with pecker size.


    Oh com'on Fred! Now all of a sudden you're being modest.



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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    In the second graph, there's a big jump between 17 and 15 where another gear would be very useful. Get rid of the 11 and put a 16 in there. Get rid of the 12, too, and add an 18. Now there are lots of gears to work with at normal cycling speeds.

    The idea with closely spaced chain rings is having two overlapping gear ranges, one slightly harder than the other, with quick, painless shifting between the two, over most of the range of gears. Works great. 53-44 and 50-42 work even smoother and nicer on the legs. Don't know how riders can handle those 14 tooth and now 16 tooth jumps. No wonder guys are dropping chains.
    I always thought the 50-11 high gear was "marketing". But it does allow the 34-12 to be used without being completely cross-chained, so riders can stay in the small ring up past 20 mph.

    ~~~~~
    Yeah, I like the 16 and 18 sprockets a lot.

    I made a custom 14-32 cassette. (More details here.) I wanted close shifts in the 18-24 mph range, to help me hang on some fast group rides. And still have low gears for steep climbs.

    I expected to change back to my 11-32 or 11-28 a lot, but I've left this on the bike most of the year. I'd change back if I was riding some very long downhills -- I like to soft pedal downhill instead of coast the whole way.

    I also have a 11-speed 12-25, which is really nice on fairly flat rides (which are quite rare for me). It's a straight block from 12-19, then 21, 23, 25.

    14-32:


    A few downsides to this:

    I effectively spin out at 29-30 mph.
    The small ring runs out of gears around 16-17 mph, so I shift the front ring more often.
    When shifting the front rings, I need to shift at least 4 cogs in the back. But that's fast and easy with Di2.
    Last edited by rm -rf; 12-03-2017 at 07:46 AM.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    No, it really isn't.

    Having chain dropping issues, are we?
    The point is, I've never dropped a chain shifting in front, not never. Ok, 20 years ago I had the inner limit screwed out too far and dropped the chain once on a spastic shift that made the chain jump. Used to work on these wimpy 16 tooth jumps all the time at the shop. Customers were always dropping chains. They had to design those ramps and sh!t to compensate. Nothing shifts slicker than 44-53. Keep it under a 10 tooth jump and you've to it made. No double shifting. That'll drop the chain pretty easily, too, if rider doesn't coordinate.

    Look, call it macho if you want. I just call it practical, have gears you'll use and get rid of the ones you won't use, 2 or 3 of which are down there at the low end. I don't need 4 climbing gears. Two would work fine, unless I'm racing flat out, or am an out of shape overweight guy in mid life crisis who's afraid to suffer and must have insurance he'll never have to walk his bike up the hills. How many riders can sustain 90 rpm up the grade their legs couldn't handle quit well at 60-70 rpm? he's not using that 30 or 32 in back most likely, so why have it? 34-28 = 8.6 mph @ 90 rpm. Anybody do that? Contador can. We mortals use much lower cadences when struggling up the hills. So far, nobody's said otherwise.

    Again: have the gears you use. Get rid of the gears you don' t use. Your legs and fitness will get you home. Believe it.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The point is, I've never dropped a chain shifting in front, not never. Ok, 20 years ago I had the inner limit screwed out too far and dropped the chain once on a spastic shift that made the chain jump. Used to work on these wimpy 16 tooth jumps all the time at the shop. Customers were always dropping chains. They had to design those ramps and sh!t to compensate. Nothing shifts slicker than 44-53. Keep it under a 10 tooth jump and you've to it made. No double shifting. That'll drop the chain pretty easily, too, if rider doesn't coordinate.
    No one was using 16t jump cranksets before ramps and pins. So I'm not sure what period of bicycle history you're talking about.
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