Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 43 of 43
  1. #26
    coaster
    Reputation: Lelandjt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,050
    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Yup. That's what he's talking about. And it's quite large on road disc. At least the first models. I haven't tried the newer ones.
    On my bars, if I don't reduce the dead stroke, the levers hit the bars before full braking.

    This works good. I've developed undersized bleed blocks so you don't have to use shims.

    https://www.shapeways.com/product/A9...leed-block-5mm
    https://www.shapeways.com/product/NN...leed-block-1mm
    https://www.shapeways.com/product/QK...ed-block-1-5mm
    At my shop we have a few different brake blocks that have been ground down to different thicknesses and labeled. I reiterate though: Overfilling a brake (or advancing the pistons if you prefer) is a temporary adjustment that will disappear with pad wear. Also, you'll be reducing pad/rotor clearance which may result in some rubbing due to flex or temporary thermal warping.

    To address the people saying you need plenty of dead stroke for braking power: You're missunderstanding. At least on an MTB (and I guess on a road bike), most people have the best power and feel when their levers stop fairly close to the bar. How far they should move between pad contact and a firm stop is a matter of preference. Some people prefer Shimano's quicker, harder feel (it feels solid and I can keep my lever really close to the grip) while others prefer a longer, squishier feel (Sram, and even more Magura) that lets them more easily modulate the power. Regardless, very few people see an advantage to having the lever move much before the pads contact the rotor. On brakes with adjustable dead stroke (how far the master piston sits behind the bypass port) I've never seen someone adjust it to anything but minimal*.

    The reasons most people prefer minimal dead stroke are:
    1. It causes a delay from when you want to start braking (finger begins squeezing lever) and when you actually start braking (pads contact rotor)
    2. It requires the lever to start farther away from the bar for a given stop point. This might matter more to MTBers than roadies because of how we grip the bar and rest a finger on the lever and the forces acting on our hands. I don't mind having my finger fairly extended on my road bike but I'd find that tiring and it would reduce my control on my MTB.

    *For more info on this see the press releases for Hayes new brake. They discuss dead stroke in detail, explain their adjustment, why it's factory set individually, and why you shouldn't touch it.
    Last edited by Lelandjt; 09-10-2018 at 10:42 PM.

  2. #27
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,658
    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    On my bars, if I don't reduce the dead stroke, the levers hit the bars before full braking.
    If this happens, they are obviously not set up right to start. Mine lock up close to the handlebars, but they will lock up. This is the way it should be.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  3. #28
    tlg
    tlg is online now
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: tlg's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    12,852
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    If this happens, they are obviously not set up right to start. Mine lock up close to the handlebars, but they will lock up. This is the way it should be.
    Nope. They're set up right.
    Custom Di2 & Garmin/GoPro mounts 2013 SuperSix EVO Hi-MOD Team * 2004 Klein Aura V

  4. #29
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    7,628
    I just measured the travel on my Shimano hydraulic disc levers and found that I have 1 1/16" travel from full off to full on.. I have them set up so that the large shift paddle passes the bar tape/bar on the outside by about 1/8" when full on. The paddle just glazes the tape.

    Remember, full on is well past lock up (perhaps by about 1/8") and full off is well beyond where they disengage.


    Edit: the measurement is taken at the fattest part of the shift paddle (also the controlling/closest part of the lever).

  5. #30
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    7,628
    Quote Originally Posted by masont View Post
    When you have a very short lever pull you have less braking power and less control over your ability to stop. Your brakes function better the way they were designed to function.

    Go ride. You'll get used to it quickly.
    What exactly is "very short lever pull" in mm or inches?

    Lever pull distance has nothing to do with braking power on hydraulic disc brakes unless the lever is hitting the bars. Lever travel from engagement to lock up is very short but very responsive to hand/lever pressure changes.

    My shimano levers came with separate free travel and reach adjustments.

  6. #31
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: OldZaskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,167
    First off - Lelandjt... thanks! You just doubled what I knew about hydraulic brake setup. Seriously - great info. And CX - solid info as usual.

    My mtn bike has XT hydraulics and my road bikes (which all get ridden regularly) have 6700 and 6800 rim on aluminum, 6800 rim on carbon and 6800 hydraulic. I have gotten used to not being used to a brake lever. All are different.

    - Quickest hitting, shortest pull is the 6800 rim on aluminum. That bike would be great for trials. One inch of lever pull = dead stopped!
    - The easiest to modulate - and the one with the longest pull is the 6800 hydraulic. I wish my mtn bike brakes were more like that one.
    Last edited by OldZaskar; 09-25-2018 at 08:03 AM.

  7. #32
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    276
    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    So, I’ve ridden my Litespeed bike with disc brakes (Shimano 9120) several times now, and I can’t get used to how far I have to pull the levers in order to get the brakes to work. I would have expected them to function similarly to rim brakes, where short lever pulls create enough stopping power. The disc brakes aren’t mushy. I re-bled them and once the pads hit the rotors, they feel firm and stop very well. I just have to pull the lever quite a bit for the pads to hit the rotors. It just seems like the gap between pads and rotor is too much. For both front and rear.

    I never had this experience with MTB disc brakes. Are road discs supposed to be this way?
    Wasp, just reading this now and it brought a smile to my face. I got a new roubaix to replace my much older roubaix. New one has discs. FIRST thing I noticed is that the discs didn't engage until you pulled the lever quite a bit. My rim brakes I have engaging with a very short pull.

    I looked for the adjustment, but there is none. After two k miles I am used to it, but it still bothers me.


    Sent from my Lenovo TB-X304F using Tapatalk

  8. #33
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,381
    Quote Originally Posted by jbinbi View Post
    Wasp, just reading this now and it brought a smile to my face. I got a new roubaix to replace my much older roubaix. New one has discs. FIRST thing I noticed is that the discs didn't engage until you pulled the lever quite a bit. My rim brakes I have engaging with a very short pull.

    I looked for the adjustment, but there is none. After two k miles I am used to it, but it still bothers me.


    Sent from my Lenovo TB-X304F using Tapatalk
    If you know what you're doing and are careful you can bleed them again. If you get it just right you can actually reduce the lever pull a bit. It'll still probably be more pull than you're used to but it won't come all the way to the bar.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  9. #34
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    2. It requires the lever to start farther away from the bar for a given stop point. This might matter more to MTBers than roadies because of how we grip the bar and rest a finger on the lever and the forces acting on our hands. I don't mind having my finger fairly extended on my road bike but I'd find that tiring and it would reduce my control on my MTB.
    It's interesting to read this. I broke my left wrist as a kid and that arm is quite a bit shorter than the other. On my mtb if i rest my finger on the brake my arm gets fatigued quickly and i have to stop riding to let it recover. I was under the impression that riding with your fingers touching the brake levers was bad practice; i know i'm faster when i rely on scrubbing speed with my tires and line choice rather than hooking the brakes. I thought that was SOP for any advanced mtb'er.



    Anyway, with the question there's two occasions where i care about braking; panic stops and fast descents. In a panic stop it's helpful get my finger on the lever first so i don't vault myself off the bike, and on a fast descent i like to get my fingers in 'the braking zone' before i meter out any braking. There's a lot of free stroke on some new shimano brakes, but it's due to good design, i think. (sram brakes don't bite so hard so it's not so annoying that there's less free stroke) I didn't set my rim brakes up to feel like that, but that was due to the incompetence of rim brakes on really hard stops, not preference.

    Get used to having good brakes. It's worth it.

  10. #35
    coaster
    Reputation: Lelandjt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,050
    Quote Originally Posted by bubble View Post
    I was under the impression that riding with your fingers touching the brake levers was bad practice; i know i'm faster when i rely on scrubbing speed with my tires and line choice rather than hooking the brakes. I thought that was SOP for any advanced MTBer.
    Watch a pro Enduro or DH race and everyone has their index fingers on the brake levers almost all the time. I'll occassionally wrap my fingers around the bars for a rest but that doesn't last long before the next braking section. In flatter places you don't need to do this but if you're not riding down a mountain are you really mountain biking?

  11. #36
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,381
    Quote Originally Posted by bubble View Post
    It's interesting to read this. I broke my left wrist as a kid and that arm is quite a bit shorter than the other. On my mtb if i rest my finger on the brake my arm gets fatigued quickly and i have to stop riding to let it recover. I was under the impression that riding with your fingers touching the brake levers was bad practice; i know i'm faster when i rely on scrubbing speed with my tires and line choice rather than hooking the brakes. I thought that was SOP for any advanced mtb'er.



    Anyway, with the question there's two occasions where i care about braking; panic stops and fast descents. In a panic stop it's helpful get my finger on the lever first so i don't vault myself off the bike, and on a fast descent i like to get my fingers in 'the braking zone' before i meter out any braking. There's a lot of free stroke on some new shimano brakes, but it's due to good design, i think. (sram brakes don't bite so hard so it's not so annoying that there's less free stroke) I didn't set my rim brakes up to feel like that, but that was due to the incompetence of rim brakes on really hard stops, not preference.

    Get used to having good brakes. It's worth it.
    What the...? Why would it be 'bad practice' to be prepared to slow down?
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  12. #37
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    What the...? Why would it be 'bad practice' to be prepared to slow down?
    Because it encourages you to drag your brakes and you have less grip on the bars.

  13. #38
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,381
    Quote Originally Posted by bubble View Post
    Because it encourages you to drag your brakes and you have less grip on the bars.
    Yeah...sure. Pretty sure I know how to ride better than that.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  14. #39
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,716
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Yeah...sure. Pretty sure I know how to ride better than that.
    Dragging your rear brake is good on high speed loose corners.
    BANNED

  15. #40
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Yeah...sure. Pretty sure I know how to ride better than that.
    OK, good for you.


    I poked around the internet a bit, looks like there's advocates for both hovering over the lever and for taking you finger away.

  16. #41
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,381
    Quote Originally Posted by bubble View Post
    OK, good for you.


    I poked around the internet a bit, looks like there's advocates for both hovering over the lever and for taking you finger away.
    I would imagine there are, that's kind of how the world works.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  17. #42
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,658
    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Watch a pro Enduro or DH race and everyone has their index fingers on the brake levers almost all the time. I'll occassionally wrap my fingers around the bars for a rest but that doesn't last long before the next braking section. In flatter places you don't need to do this but if you're not riding down a mountain are you really mountain biking?
    Yes, if you're riding UP a mountain.
    Last edited by Lombard; 10-02-2018 at 04:41 AM.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  18. #43
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    191
    What a great use of 3D printing! It drives me bonkers that I can't have some fingers wrapped around my bars when my hands are on the hoods and I brake... My Shimano levers just about cut-off my fingers as the shift lever darn near sharp. I re-bled my brakes and adjusted the reach slight which helped a little, but smaller bleed blocks would've certainly been useful.

    With my old mountain bike hydraulic brakes, I could adjust the pads in or out to my liking. I wish my Shimano brakes had that capability.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-09-2013, 08:10 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-16-2013, 07:33 AM
  3. To Pull or Not to Pull?
    By MTT in forum Commuting, Touring and Ride Reports
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-30-2009, 12:52 PM
  4. roller for bottom pull to top pull cable route
    By rockstarracing in forum Cyclocross
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-09-2008, 09:05 PM
  5. Enough cable pull for Linear Pull Brakes??
    By toomanybikes in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-26-2004, 09:12 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.