Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 46
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    12

    Chain Ring Compatibility - A Problem 23 Years in the making

    I have a 23 year old Canondale T700 touring bike that had custom components put on it when I bought it in 1994. It was originally an Ultegra 8 speed rear with an RX100 Triple Front Crankset. The front chainrings are Shimano SG 52, SG E-42 and E-30. Front derailleur is Deore LX.

    I replaced the rear cassette, derailleur and shifters with Ultegra Derailleur, 10 speed 11-28 and Ultegra 10 speed shifters about 5 years ago. Recently (4500 miles later) I ham having massive chain slippage to the point the bike is un-rideable. The chain was severely worn, so I replaced that first but same issue. When I look at my 42 tooth middle chainring it looks rally badly worn with a few teeth worse than others. I do not believe the derailleur is bent although it could be worn, but it seems to be slipping on the front under pressure.

    I cannot figure out what chainring might work on this old setup. Or even whether a new crankset could be put in - I am new to this part of bicycle maintenance as I haven touched it in 23 years. I have been searching for information but this is so old I am not fining anything even on Sheldon Brown's pages.

    I have a new Salsa Warbird gravel bike but would like to get this old one ride-able enough to use even on a trainer. What can I buy/try ?

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Finding a new middle chain ring could be like finding a needle in a haystack. You will most likely need to replace the whole crank set.

    Which crank set will work for your bike will depend on what type of bottom bracket you have. Since your bike is a 1994, can I assume you have a square taper BB? If that is the case, you will probably need to go with a crank set made by Sugino:

    Sugino XD600 Triple Cranksets | Jenson USA

    If you want Shimano, you will need to convert to a Hollowtech II BB. This is possible, but it's a juggling act to get all the adapters correct in order to get the correct chain line. You could try this, but it could result in nothing but endless frustration.

    Edit: Apparently Shimano does make a square taper triple, but it's an entry level one. It comes in both touring and mountain gearing options. Price is right:

    Shimano Acera M361 Square Crankset | Jenson USA
    Last edited by Lombard; 09-19-2017 at 05:57 AM.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  3. #3
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6,072
    Too old to ride plastic

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    129
    Your crankset is from the 8 spd era & I assume that you were running an 8 spd chain with this original setup. When you went to 10 spd, did you keep that 8spd chain to run with it as well?? If you did, I'm not surprised that you have chain slippage issues.

    Most definitely, you need a new cassette & chain as well. I wouldn't bother finding 8 spd chainrings for a 10 spd drivetrain because although I'm sure it would shift, it isn't doing so optimally & you're just shortening the life span of your components. Its better overall to keep everything of the same generation. I'm kinda amazed that you have the original crankset & bottom bracket to be honest.

    You should replace the crank with either a 9 or 10 spd one. As for the bottom bracket, any matching the crankset in English/BSA will do. For example not knowing your leg length, here is what I was able to find on short notice: FSA Gossamer Triple 30/39/50 MegaExo Crankset 172.5mm NEW IN BOX! | eBay

    Replacing the entire crankset is cheaper than replacing all the rings because although your 42 is the most worn, that worn chain has already done its work on the other rings to warrant their replacement as well. Good luck.

  5. #5
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    Your crankset is from the 8 spd era & I assume that you were running an 8 spd chain with this original setup. When you went to 10 spd, did you keep that 8spd chain to run with it as well?? If you did, I'm not surprised that you have chain slippage issues.

    Most definitely, you need a new cassette & chain as well. I wouldn't bother finding 8 spd chainrings for a 10 spd drivetrain because although I'm sure it would shift, it isn't doing so optimally & you're just shortening the life span of your components. Its better overall to keep everything of the same generation. I'm kinda amazed that you have the original crankset & bottom bracket to be honest.

    You should replace the crank with either a 9 or 10 spd one.....
    It is true that you need a 10-speed chain to work with a 10-speed cassette. However, an "8-speed" crankset will work fine with a 10-speed chain. As we went to more speeds on the cassette, chains had to become narrower. Now you are probably thinking "ahhh, so my 10-speed chain will be too narrow for my rings". But as chains became narrower, they only became narrower on the outside so they would fit in between the smaller clearances of each cog on your cassette. The width of the inside of a 10-speed chain is the same as an 8-speed chain.

    Yes, you will see crank sets that say 8-speed, 9-speed, 10-speed, etc. As far as crank sets, those numbers only matter in marketingland. The only number of speeds you need to be concerned with on crank sets are 3-speeds for a triple, 2-speeds for a double........you get the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    As for the bottom bracket, any matching the crankset in English/BSA will do. For example not knowing your leg length, here is what I was able to find on short notice: FSA Gossamer Triple 30/39/50 MegaExo Crankset 172.5mm NEW IN BOX! | eBay
    Wrong. Finding the right sized BB is more than just getting one to match the crank set you are installing. It's not that clear, cut and dry. You need to get the chain line just right or it will not work.
    Last edited by Lombard; 09-19-2017 at 10:05 AM.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  6. #6
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Wrong. Finding the right sized BB is more than just getting one to match the crank set you are installing. It's not that clear, cut and dry. You need to get the chain line just right or it will not work.
    But there is some wiggle room with spindle length. My crankset calls for a 118mm spindle but I'm using a 115mm with no issue, could probably run a 112 or 113 if I wanted to narrow the Q factor more.

    According to the book, my chainline is off by 1.5mm which doesn't amount to much as long as the inner and outer stops are set right. I have about 9mm between the chain stays and crankarms on that bike and be willing to replace the BB with one with a 113mm spindle to see. But my current BB only has about 11,500 miles on it and is good for a long time still. Don't fix it if it ain't broke, and all that.

    A fast and dirty measurement on my cassette put the cogs on 5mm center to center which means that a 5mm difference in spindle length would put my chainline right in between two cogs instead of centering on the center one. That would probably be an issue, but should be able to be made to work. But the 1.5mm misalignment that I'm currently running gets lost in the noise.
    Too old to ride plastic

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    But there is some wiggle room with spindle length. My crankset calls for a 118mm spindle but I'm using a 115mm with no issue, could probably run a 112 or 113 if I wanted to narrow the Q factor more.

    According to the book, my chainline is off by 1.5mm which doesn't amount to much as long as the inner and outer stops are set right. I have about 9mm between the chain stays and crankarms on that bike and be willing to replace the BB with one with a 113mm spindle to see. But my current BB only has about 11,500 miles on it and is good for a long time still. Don't fix it if it ain't broke, and all that.

    A fast and dirty measurement on my cassette put the cogs on 5mm center to center which means that a 5mm difference in spindle length would put my chainline right in between two cogs instead of centering on the center one. That would probably be an issue, but should be able to be made to work. But the 1.5mm misalignment that I'm currently running gets lost in the noise.

    I believe the issue the OP will deal with is if he changes from a square taper BB to a Hollowtech II BB. Sure, there may be a little wiggle room. Go beyond that and it won't work. Without knowing the spindle length of the OP's BB, I can't say for sure. And it's not as if there are different spindle lengths with Hollowtech II crank sets and BBs. Remember that with Hollowtech II, the drive side of the crank set is the spindle. The BB is just a set of external bearings. There are no different spindle sizes with Hollowtech II. There are many spindle sizes with square taper.

    As you say, why replace a part that isn't broken? Staying with his existing BB and getting a crank set that is compatible with it will ensure a fit.
    Last edited by Lombard; 09-19-2017 at 10:53 AM.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    12

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I believe the issue the OP will deal with is if he changes from a square taper BB to a Hollowtech II BB. Sure, there may be a little wiggle room. Go beyond that and it won't work. Without knowing the spindle length of the OP's BB, I can't say for sure. And it's not as if there are different spindle lengths with Hollowtech II crank sets and BBs. Remember that with Hollowtech II, the drive side of the crank set is the spindle. The BB is just a set of external bearings. There are no different spindle sizes with Hollowtech II. There are many spindle sizes with square taper.

    As you say, why replace a part that isn't broken? Staying with his existing BB and getting a crank set that is compatible with it will ensure a fit.
    I did switch to a 10 speed chain when I changed the shifters and cassette to 10 speed. The concern I have with the crank sets linked in your first post is the chain rings are very small (26, 36, 46 teeth).

    So what do I measure/look at to see if I can replace the bottom bracket with something more modern and compatible with say a 105 triple set. I can measure with calipers. May be tool shortages but I'm pretty mechanically inclined with instructions I see bottom brackets for $30 and $300..... While I don't mind wasting my time playing with the old bike (because I cannot throw it away) I don't want to waste money unnecessarily !

  9. #9
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6,072
    VeloBase.com - Component: Shimano FC-A550-T, RX100 (triple) says that your middle and outer chainrings are 130mm's.
    A quick search and this is what I found.

    Shimano SG 42T 130BCD Chainring Silver | Bikewagon.com

    I looks like an exact replacement.
    Too old to ride plastic

  10. #10
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by SlowestPoke View Post
    I did switch to a 10 speed chain when I changed the shifters and cassette to 10 speed. The concern I have with the crank sets linked in your first post is the chain rings are very small (26, 36, 46 teeth).

    So what do I measure/look at to see if I can replace the bottom bracket with something more modern and compatible with say a 105 triple set. I can measure with calipers. May be tool shortages but I'm pretty mechanically inclined with instructions I see bottom brackets for $30 and $300..... While I don't mind wasting my time playing with the old bike (because I cannot throw it away) I don't want to waste money unnecessarily !
    You have a touring bike, so I kinda figured the 26/36/48 gearing might be what you want.

    You will not find a 105 triple unless you get an older one. That was two generations ago. With dumb luck, you may find some new/old stock, otherwise only used. You will have no idea how used it is.

    The answer to your question what can you modernize this with to get it to work? I don't know that this is possible. Which is why I recommend staying with the BB you have and getting a compatible crank set.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  11. #11
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    12
    For$20 delivered price I a going to try the chainring and see if it (1) fits ad (2) woks/help.


    And thanks to all of you for the help and for the link to the vintage parts at velobase !
    Last edited by SlowestPoke; 09-19-2017 at 12:45 PM.

  12. #12
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by SlowestPoke View Post
    For$20 delivered price I a going to try the chainring and see if it (1) fits ad (2) woks/help.


    And thanks to all of you for the help and for the link to the vintage parts at velobase !
    I guess for $20 and free shipping, it's worth a shot. Just be sure to get the right BCD for your crank.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  13. #13
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    It is true that you need a 10-speed chain to work with a 10-speed cassette. However, an "8-speed" crankset will work fine with a 10-speed chain. As we went to more speeds on the cassette, chains had to become narrower. Now you are probably thinking "ahhh, so my 10-speed chain will be too narrow for my rings". But as chains became narrower, they only became narrower on the outside so they would fit in between the smaller clearances of each cog on your cassette. The width of the inside of a 10-speed chain is the same as an 8-speed chain.
    You're over thinking this. The OP has chain slippage issues due to a worn drive train. Whatever damage was done, the slippage is worst on the middle ring because that is the one that is used the most. Does that mean the damage is only limited to just that ring & not the others??

    I don't know what kind of routine maintenance was done or not but the OP clearly states that he hasn't touched it in 23 yrs & the upgraded drivetrain was done 5 yrs previous. For me its simple. Instead of fiddling with replacing worn 8 spd chain rings which have no shift ramps or shift pins, why not just replace it with a modern setup & get improved front shifting. Plus the grease in that 23 yr old bottom bracket which has never been serviced for me makes it a no brainer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Wrong. Finding the right sized BB is more than just getting one to match the crank set you are installing. It's not that clear, cut and dry. You need to get the chain line just right or it will not work.
    It is cleark cut & dry. The OP has a 23 yr old Cannondale T700 which is BSA/English threads. If he follows my recommendation to update the crankset to a modern outboard bearing system, then it is simply matching the crank to the equivalent bottom bracket. Because to obtain the the right chainline for which ever frame means using the spacers that are provided with that bb.

    Now if he were to stick with square taper or use any of the other standards like octalink, isis, etc. than you are correct & things would be more complicated. But why go backwards when there are so many pro's for going forward?? For someone that doesn't like to do maintenance there is nothing better than a modern sealed cartridge bearing bottom bracket. I still have my crank puller & other tools from years past & I'm glad to say that I don't miss having to use them. Many new bike shops don't even carry any of those old tools. So again for me, going forward & not backwards is the more prudent choice.

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    You're over thinking this. The OP has chain slippage issues due to a worn drive train. Whatever damage was done, the slippage is worst on the middle ring because that is the one that is used the most. Does that mean the damage is only limited to just that ring & not the others??
    That was the OP's assumption, not mine. Also, please re-read the OP's posts and my posts and you will see that it was the OP who was advocating replacing only the middle ring, not I. When the OP finally decided to go that route, I agreed that for $20 it was worth a shot. Maybe you too that to mean that I thought that was the best way to go?

    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    I don't know what kind of routine maintenance was done or not but the OP clearly states that he hasn't touched it in 23 yrs & the upgraded drivetrain was done 5 yrs previous. For me its simple. Instead of fiddling with replacing worn 8 spd chain rings which have no shift ramps or shift pins, why not just replace it with a modern setup & get improved front shifting. Plus the grease in that 23 yr old bottom bracket which has never been serviced for me makes it a no brainer.

    It is cleark cut & dry. The OP has a 23 yr old Cannondale T700 which is BSA/English threads. If he follows my recommendation to update the crankset to a modern outboard bearing system, then it is simply matching the crank to the equivalent bottom bracket. Because to obtain the the right chainline for which ever frame means using the spacers that are provided with that bb.
    It is not clear, cut and dry. You are forgetting that while the threading may be standard, spindle lengths of square taper BBs are not. There is no guarantee that a Hollowtech II BB will work regardless of how the spacers are postioned. Believe me, I have been through this. Again, re-read my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    Now if he were to stick with square taper or use any of the other standards like octalink, isis, etc. than you are correct & things would be more complicated. But why go backwards when there are so many pro's for going forward?? For someone that doesn't like to do maintenance there is nothing better than a modern sealed cartridge bearing bottom bracket. I still have my crank puller & other tools from years past & I'm glad to say that I don't miss having to use them. Many new bike shops don't even carry any of those old tools.
    You have to be joking, right? There are still plenty of bikes out there with older square taper, Octalink and ISIS BBs. For bike shops to write off these customers would be business suicide. And Newsflash: You can still buy these types of BBs.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    That was the OP's assumption, not mine. Also, please re-read the OP's posts and my posts and you will see that it was the OP who was advocating replacing only the middle ring, not I. When the OP finally decided to go that route, I agreed that for $20 it was worth a shot. Maybe you too that to mean that I thought that was the best way to go?
    Have you considered switching to de-caf?? You're trying to help the OP & you do recommend that he changes his crankset but you recommend sticking with a square taper design so that he can re-use his 23 yr old bottom bracket. Really? I see that as going backwards & not forwards. Just my opinion but I did explain my reasoning about going forward & sticking to same generation components.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    It is not clear, cut and dry. You are forgetting that while the threading may be standard, spindle lengths of square taper BBs are not. There is no guarantee that a Hollowtech II BB will work regardless of how the spacers are postioned. Believe me, I have been through this. Again, re-read my posts.
    Because you've had a bad experience with chainline setup doesn't mean the OP will face the same problems. Because of your bad experience, you recommend that he find a compatible crankset to fit his bottom bracket. You previously mentioned that the idea of trying to find matching replacement rings for his cranks like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Isn't trying to find a compatible crankset for a 23 yr old bb the exact same?? Also to buy an NOS crankset from that era isn't a very smart investment because you're buying older tech at a marked up premium.

    That is why I disagree with you. There are way more variables involved by going your suggested route. That is why manufacturers tried to simplify things with the introduction of the outboard bearing design like hollowgram. Which in my opinion offers real tangible benefits. The part that I didn't understand is why you keep mentioning adapters & the nightmare involved. Its a 23 yr old Cannondale if I read things right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    You have to be joking, right? There are still plenty of bikes out there with older square taper, Octalink and ISIS BBs. For bike shops to write off these customers would be business suicide. And Newsflash: You can still buy these types of BBs.
    A friend of mine with an older, Italian, steel racing bike with classic components on it had this exact problem. With stores closing & new ones opening up, he couldn't find a place that could service his bike. Northern Cali, go figure. I don't know where you're finding your supply of octalink or isis bb's but Shimano stopped making the octalink design long ago & whatever supply was out there was it. My friend with the classic bike informed me that its getting harder & harder to find parts for his bike. I'm of the same opinion as him but if you say otherwise....

  16. #16
    a real member's member
    Reputation: blackfrancois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    3,003
    if i knew the chainring was causing the slippage problem, i would ...

    determine bcd.
    determine tooth count.
    go to ebay and see what's out there.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    412
    1983 Cannondale ST-500 tourer and a 1984 Raleigh Olympian road bike.... I have been through some of this.

    Easiest by far is going with a square-taper BB and then buying (unfortunately Low-end) new crankset or doing EBay for NOS. There is a lot out there---it just takes a lot of patience to get good deals on good merchandise.

    I have switched one square-taper BB bike to a HollowTech BB successfully, but the Hollowtech is wider ... I went from a triple to a double so it worked, but I am not sure what a triple would be like ... I'd imagine pretty wide.

    Not to say that to wouldn't work. It might not have a scientifically optimal chain line ... but it still might ride fine. Trial and error .....

    One issue he will face will be rear spacing, which will probably be 126 mm .... and on a Cannondale, stretching that can be a pain. That means that he has less room to go wide up front before tweaking the chain in the back ... its only a couple mm difference, but it will make cross-chaining noisy (not that any one cross-chains, right? ;) ) and if he goes too wide he might hit the chain stay.

    But ... none of this is rocket science. I have run a number of different cranksets on both bikes .... the Cannondale is pretty forgiving (it has a modern 48-38-28 Shimano crankset with a square-taper BB on there now and works wonderfully.)

    Unless he really demands historical accuracy, he can get all kinds of stuff off EBay which will keep his bike running for a long time.

  18. #18
    Man, I'm Awesome
    Reputation: brianmcg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,171
    If you replaced the chain after 4500 miles and not the cassette, I'd say that could be your problem.

    The few worn teeth you described was how some rings were made to allow easier shifting. But I can't see it from here.
    "I like to ride my bicycle." - Lance Armstrong -

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by brianmcg View Post
    If you replaced the chain after 4500 miles and not the cassette, I'd say that could be your problem.

    That would be a problem as the chain and cassette eventually "marry each other". However, I believe the OP's slipping is in the front. And yes, as few chain ring teeth that look worn are indeed that way on purpose to aid upshifting. Now, if they all have sharp points or look like shark fins, that is definitely wear.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  20. #20
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    Have you considered switching to de-caf??
    Oooooh, we are getting testy, aren't we?

    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    You're trying to help the OP & you do recommend that he changes his crankset but you recommend sticking with a square taper design so that he can re-use his 23 yr old bottom bracket. Really? I see that as going backwards & not forwards. Just my opinion but I did explain my reasoning about going forward & sticking to same generation components.
    You may want to read Maelochs' post #17 for why a full conversion to Hollowtech II may very well be a frustrating nightmare and waste of time and $$. Please read his full post before you reply to mine again. If the OP really wants to do this, he should take it to a bike shop and get their advice (unless he is a pro bike mechanic himself). There are too many potential anomalies here.

    Remember, his existing BB has lasted 23 years. OK you say, as long as he's in there it may be a good idea to replace it? If it's square taper, replacing it with like and kind is fairly easy. Just match threading and spindle lengths. You can still buy these - REALLY!

    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    Because you've had a bad experience with chainline setup doesn't mean the OP will face the same problems.
    Again, read Maelochs' post #17.

    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    You previously mentioned that the idea of trying to find matching replacement rings for his cranks like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Isn't trying to find a compatible crankset for a 23 yr old bb the exact same??
    Not at all if it's a square taper. As I linked to earlier in this thread, Sugino still makes these. Shimano also makes lower end touring cranksets if the OP is on a tight budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    A friend of mine with an older, Italian, steel racing bike with classic components on it had this exact problem. With stores closing & new ones opening up, he couldn't find a place that could service his bike. Northern Cali, go figure. I don't know where you're finding your supply of octalink or isis bb's but Shimano stopped making the octalink design long ago & whatever supply was out there was it. My friend with the classic bike informed me that its getting harder & harder to find parts for his bike. I'm of the same opinion as him but if you say otherwise....
    It may be a different situation in NoCal, but here in the NY-NJ-CT tri-state area, many people still own older bikes and most of the shops around here have been in business for decades. The better shops will still replace these when they go south rather than immediately seeing dollar signs and proposing an upgrade or worse yet, a new bike.

    If Shimano has indeed stopped making older BBs, there must be a tremendous amount of new/old stock out there:

    https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...DZcQ8wIIjgMwBw

    Shimano 105 BB-5500 Bottom Bracket > Components > Drivetrain > Threaded | Jenson USA

    Shimano ES51 Bottom Bracket 73x121mm | Bikewagon.com

    https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...BSYQ8wIIiQMwAw

    Shimano UN55 Bottom Bracket | Jenson USA
    Last edited by Lombard; 09-21-2017 at 05:31 AM.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  21. #21
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Oooooh, we are getting testy, aren't we?



    You may want to read Maelochs' post #17 for why a full conversion to Hollowtech II may very well be a frustrating nightmare and waste of time and $$. Please read his full post before you reply to mine again. If the OP really wants to do this, he should take it to a bike shop and get their advice (unless he is a pro bike mechanic himself). There are too many potential anomalies here.

    Remember, his existing BB has lasted 23 years. OK you say, as long as he's in there it may be a good idea to replace it? If it's square taper, replacing it with like and kind is fairly easy. Just match threading and spindle lengths. You can still buy these - REALLY!



    Again, read Maelochs' post #17.
    Chainline problems are due to geometry & frame design. Maelochs post is informative but not indicative that the OP will face the same problems that you yourself faced. The bikes that Maelochs referenced are more than a decade older than the OP's.

    The outboard bearing design allowed manufacturers to make parts integration easier for everyone. No more trying to figure out what size bb you need for which crank. As you said the drive side crank is the spindle. And spacers are now used to adjust the chainline as per manufacturers instructions.

    As I said, you are suggesting the OP against a plan based on fear. We simply don't know unless he tries it. As Maelochs stated, he was able to switch one from square taper to hollowtech but it is trial & error. Simply put if you don't try, you'll never know.

  22. #22
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    As I said, you are suggesting the OP against a plan based on fear. We simply don't know unless he tries it. As Maelochs stated, he was able to switch one from square taper to hollowtech but it is trial & error. Simply put if you don't try, you'll never know.
    Well if the OP is up for a challenge and has endless $$$, then why not? He should. After all, as you say, you never know unless you try. My advice was the quickest and dirtiest method for getting back on the road with the least amount of headaches.

    My main point is that performance wise, it won't make one bit of difference - zero, nada, zilch. If he buys a new Hollowtech II crankset and BB, tries it and it doesn't work, he can't return it - it's been run through the gears and will show obvious signs of use. And even if he could, he will lose shipping and just as importantly - time.

    And if you remember correctly, Maelochs said he was able to switch from a triple square taper to a double Hollowtech II. He mentioned that a triple Hollowtech II could be much wider. Not sure if spacers/adapters would be enough to make it work.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  23. #23
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    12
    I have been reading all of these posts with much interest. One clarification - when I said I had not touched the bottom bracket, that did not mean it has never been serviced. I rode that Canondale a lot of miles and took it in regularly for maintenance over the years, including the bottom bracket on at least 2 occasions I can remember. I am trying to learn more about bike maintenance for fun really. That is why I tried the 8 to 10 speed upgrade on my own (the old 8 speed Ultegra 600 shifters wore out).

    I do confess to be totally confused about bottom brackets and crank sets despite reading all of this. The archive site linked above says my bottom bracket is 122.5 mm long and I assume that is the length I would look for if I was to go that route at some point (if I understand it correctly). Diameter and threads have to match as well. I can measure chain line with my calipers pretty easily but would have no idea where the new bottom bracket would leave me on chain line... Again thank for your help - wasn't trying to start an argument - just trying to learn from everyone.

  24. #24
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by SlowestPoke View Post
    The archive site linked above says my bottom bracket is 122.5 mm long and I assume that is the length I would look for if I was to go that route at some point (if I understand it correctly). Diameter and threads have to match as well.
    122.5mm is the length from spindle end to spindle end. Yes, that is what you would have to match. Threading is easier. You have a standard English threaded 68mm which is the measurement from thread end to thread end. This BB is what is referred to as a 68x122.5 square taper BB like the one below:

    https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Squar...ket&th=1&psc=1

    If/when you need to, the Shimano UN55 BB above is a good one to replace it with. This one has a steel bearing in it rather than the Teflon cartridge found on lower end BBs.

    In order to replace this, you will need some special tools - a special socket to remove the BB as well as a special crank puller.

    Very important: If you decide to replace the BB (or for that matter, any threaded BB) be sure to put plenty of anti-seize compound on the threads before installation. This will prevent any creaking as well as prevent a plethora of swear words coming out of your mouth when the time comes that you have to take it out again.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  25. #25
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by SlowestPoke View Post
    I have been reading all of these posts with much interest. One clarification - when I said I had not touched the bottom bracket, that did not mean it has never been serviced. I rode that Canondale a lot of miles and took it in regularly for maintenance over the years, including the bottom bracket on at least 2 occasions I can remember. I am trying to learn more about bike maintenance for fun really. That is why I tried the 8 to 10 speed upgrade on my own (the old 8 speed Ultegra 600 shifters wore out).

    I do confess to be totally confused about bottom brackets and crank sets despite reading all of this. The archive site linked above says my bottom bracket is 122.5 mm long and I assume that is the length I would look for if I was to go that route at some point (if I understand it correctly). Diameter and threads have to match as well. I can measure chain line with my calipers pretty easily but would have no idea where the new bottom bracket would leave me on chain line... Again thank for your help - wasn't trying to start an argument - just trying to learn from everyone.
    No worriess, no arguement. Just a difference of opinions. Usually Lombard is a cool cat but he's been stirring the pot lately especially over in General. Not once in any of my posts did I ever recommend the square taper. I've advocated all along to upgrade your drivetrain to same generation as your other components. But Lombard keeps dragging my posts back to square taper debate. Really I have no idea what he was talking about when he said it would be a nightmare switching over to Hollowtech & dealing with all the adaptors.

    Manufacturers have been working on integration on the bike for a long time now to make things work better together & simplify things overall. The outboard bearing design did away with all the different spindle lengths & tapers that you had to worry about in the past. The link in my original post was for a new triple by FSA with bb & it was only going for $50. I'd figure if it didn't work out, it would be easy to re-sell it & easily get your money back. So no big loss either way. Just remember that those that fail cry the loudest. There are many that have done the conversion from square taper to outboard bearing without problems, myself included but bottom line it is your decision.

    I will say that if you did just replace the middle ring on that old crank, its not enough. Because that middle ring was so worn after 23 yrs of use & when you went to 10 spd, that anytime you shifted to any of the other rings it has already caused the rest of your drivetrain to wear out more than it would otherwise. So to keep those 2 remaining chainrings on that bike you would only be continuing to worsen the problem of premature wear.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 07-20-2015, 09:15 AM
  2. FD and Chain Ring Compatibility
    By brownSystems in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-29-2015, 05:38 AM
  3. Campy chain ring shifting problem
    By Anderson in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-18-2013, 11:10 AM
  4. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 03-02-2010, 06:12 PM
  5. Chain Ring Compatibility!
    By dewey in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-29-2006, 07:24 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •