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  1. #1
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    Kuota Khan, Phil Wood BB Questions...

    Building my first bike, and hoping my marriage will survive the cost!

    Have a 2005 Kuota Khan, and 2005 Campy Record Carbon compact crank. About to purchase a Phil Wood Ti or Ti/Magnium bottom bracket, but I have no idea about the threading on my Kuota, or the correct length to order. Should I order the 68/70 mm diameter, 102mm length? Their order form is less than helpful to this neophyte!

    I assume the Kuota is Italian threaded, as is my Colnago Dream. But, a spec is nowhere to be found on the web. Phil Wood BB's also require purchase of cups and a consumer "tool." For those who have installed one, should I buy two of the install tools? I have time, and at this point need to save money and marriage!

    Trying to build the bike to climb all day in the Santa Cruz/Woodside area. Not going for psycho light, but will be around 14 lbs fully built (51cm frame), and hopefully stiff as can be.

    Thanks for your help!

  2. #2
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    length is 102mm...

    The length is obviously 102mm, Campy taper (ISO not JIS). As for the threading, istseems like the seller would know? These days, you can't assume an Italian manufacturer uses Italian threading (Bianchi doesn't).

    Just looking at the BB thread should tell you which threading you have. The threads would be right hand on both sides of the frame, if it's Italian. Place a small wire in the thread and move the wire clockwise. If the wire goes into the BB shell, it's an Italian RH thread.

    That said, you better buy two Phil installation tools with the BB, or you'll never get it tight. The downside to an Italian Phil BB is that tightening either side loosens the opposite side.

  3. #3
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    Thanks!

    I will take a risk Kuota has Itialian threading, and order up the proper Campy BB from Phil wood. Will report back in a week or so, might help a future Kuota home builder with this question...

  4. #4
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    I wouldn't...

    go to all the trouble to order a BB that might not fit. You can also place a fingernail in the root of the right BB thread and rotate clockwise. If your finger goes in while following the thread, it's a RH threaded Italian.

  5. #5
    Chili hed & old bike fixr
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    Quote Originally Posted by bschec7
    I will take a risk Kuota has Itialian threading, and order up the proper Campy BB from Phil wood. Will report back in a week or so, might help a future Kuota home builder with this question...
    Measure the width of the BBshell. Italian BB standard is 70 mm, english is 68.

  6. #6
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    One thing about Phil Wood

    Quote Originally Posted by bschec7
    Building my first bike, and hoping my marriage will survive the cost!

    Have a 2005 Kuota Khan, and 2005 Campy Record Carbon compact crank. About to purchase a Phil Wood Ti or Ti/Magnium bottom bracket, but I have no idea about the threading on my Kuota, or the correct length to order. Should I order the 68/70 mm diameter, 102mm length? Their order form is less than helpful to this neophyte!

    I assume the Kuota is Italian threaded, as is my Colnago Dream. But, a spec is nowhere to be found on the web. Phil Wood BB's also require purchase of cups and a consumer "tool." For those who have installed one, should I buy two of the install tools? I have time, and at this point need to save money and marriage!

    Trying to build the bike to climb all day in the Santa Cruz/Woodside area. Not going for psycho light, but will be around 14 lbs fully built (51cm frame), and hopefully stiff as can be.

    Thanks for your help!
    The bottom bracket is a separate purchase from the bottom bracket cups. First, you buy the bottom bracket itself. The diameter is the same for all versions. The length varies, and if you're going Campy Record you need the 102 mm bottom bracket. That length is made only in the Campy taper, so no chance of mistake there. You have three choices - stainless steel - heaviest, stiffest, cheapest; titanium - lighter, flexier, more expensive; or "Magnium" - lightest, most expensive, stiffer than simple ti but flexier than steel. If you generate a lot of horsepower (sprinter type) go with steel or Magnium; if you're a climber type (less hp) the ordinary ti should suffice.

    Then, you need to buy the appropriate cups. This is where the question of English or Italian threads arises. You have a choice of steel or alloy cups. Until recently Phil Wood said you had to use the steel cups if mounting into an aluminum or titanium bottom bracket (the frame, not the spindle) but they've now come up with a teflon impregnated cup that they say is compatible with an al or ti frame.

    So - you need to buy a bottom bracket; set of appropriate (Eng or It) cups, and a pair of their installation tools. Total expense will range from expensive (steel) to Whoa!!! (Magnium). Even the steel, by the time you include the rings, exceeds the price of a Campagnolo Record b/b. If you're trying not to break the bank the Campy b/b really does work quite well. With that said I have Record b/b's in 4 of my bikes, and Magniums in two more. If you get either Ti or Magnium b/b (they weigh the same) and the new alloy rings, you'll save about 40 gr over Record.

    Best prices I've seen for steel bottom brackets and rings are at Licktons.com; best Magnium price at speedgoat.com.

    None of which answers your first question, regarding which threads you have. Here's what I'd do. Whoever you decide to buy from, call them up and ask them if you can buy both sets - English and Italian - and return whichever set you don't need!

  7. #7
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    I wouldn't take the risk. Chances are greater it's English threaded as the frame is made by Martec in China.

  8. #8
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    My Purchase...

    Lots of great advice, I purchased the Ti (not Magnium) from Lickbike, as well as two install tools, and two each of the Italian and English alloy cups. The price was significantly lower than from philwood.com direct.

    I live within a few miles of Phil Wood's San Jose, CA HQ...but was unable to find it this afternoon. They must have phenomenal support, as an e-mail I sent them last week was followed up with a helpful phone call. Like most folks though, they thought the Kuota was Canadian, and had an English BB! The bike shop I purchased the Kuota from has still not responded on the threading, but soon I will have an answer for the group.

    Thanks for all the support.

    Brett


    Quote Originally Posted by DMoore
    The bottom bracket is a separate purchase from the bottom bracket cups. First, you buy the bottom bracket itself. The diameter is the same for all versions. The length varies, and if you're going Campy Record you need the 102 mm bottom bracket. That length is made only in the Campy taper, so no chance of mistake there. You have three choices - stainless steel - heaviest, stiffest, cheapest; titanium - lighter, flexier, more expensive; or "Magnium" - lightest, most expensive, stiffer than simple ti but flexier than steel. If you generate a lot of horsepower (sprinter type) go with steel or Magnium; if you're a climber type (less hp) the ordinary ti should suffice.

    Then, you need to buy the appropriate cups. This is where the question of English or Italian threads arises. You have a choice of steel or alloy cups. Until recently Phil Wood said you had to use the steel cups if mounting into an aluminum or titanium bottom bracket (the frame, not the spindle) but they've now come up with a teflon impregnated cup that they say is compatible with an al or ti frame.

    So - you need to buy a bottom bracket; set of appropriate (Eng or It) cups, and a pair of their installation tools. Total expense will range from expensive (steel) to Whoa!!! (Magnium). Even the steel, by the time you include the rings, exceeds the price of a Campagnolo Record b/b. If you're trying not to break the bank the Campy b/b really does work quite well. With that said I have Record b/b's in 4 of my bikes, and Magniums in two more. If you get either Ti or Magnium b/b (they weigh the same) and the new alloy rings, you'll save about 40 gr over Record.

    Best prices I've seen for steel bottom brackets and rings are at Licktons.com; best Magnium price at speedgoat.com.

    None of which answers your first question, regarding which threads you have. Here's what I'd do. Whoever you decide to buy from, call them up and ask them if you can buy both sets - English and Italian - and return whichever set you don't need!

  9. #9
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    About those cups

    Quote Originally Posted by bschec7
    Lots of great advice, I purchased the Ti (not Magnium) from Lickbike, as well as two install tools, and two each of the Italian and English alloy cups. The price was significantly lower than from philwood.com direct.

    I live within a few miles of Phil Wood's San Jose, CA HQ...but was unable to find it this afternoon. They must have phenomenal support, as an e-mail I sent them last week was followed up with a helpful phone call. Like most folks though, they thought the Kuota was Canadian, and had an English BB! The bike shop I purchased the Kuota from has still not responded on the threading, but soon I will have an answer for the group.

    Thanks for all the support.

    Brett
    You said you bought "two each" of the English and Italian cups. I hope you realize they come "two to a package" and didn't buy two sets of each type. If so, you have way more parts than you need. (Please don't think I think you're stupid. I made that exact mistake myself the first time I bought a PW bottom bracket.) I just kept the extra set for next time.

    It sounds like you're going to have a fantastic bike when you're done. My current race bike is an '05 Orbea Orca, mostly Record, with Magnium bb, Mavic SSC brakes, and Record carbon everything else. After much debate with myself I decided against getting an '06 Orbea Opal (yes, Orbea's our team sponsor) and am updating the Orca instead. So I'm treating it to the new Magnium b/b, some Zero-G brakes, a new saddle and a new set of carbon bars, probably Eastons. Not that any of it will make me any faster, but I do love my toys.

  10. #10
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    Talking Thanks DM. BB Cup Proliferation!

    Quote Originally Posted by DMoore
    You said you bought "two each" of the English and Italian cups. I hope you realize they come "two to a package" and didn't buy two sets of each type. If so, you have way more parts than you need. (Please don't think I think you're stupid. I made that exact mistake myself the first time I bought a PW bottom bracket.) I just kept the extra set for next time.

    Silly me, exactly what i have done. I will call them and cancel the extra sets tomorrow. Phil Wood does not indicate these are two packs anywhere on-line, at any dealer!

    It sounds like you're going to have a fantastic bike when you're done. My current race bike is an '05 Orbea Orca, mostly Record, with Magnium bb, Mavic SSC brakes, and Record carbon everything else. After much debate with myself I decided against getting an '06 Orbea Opal (yes, Orbea's our team sponsor) and am updating the Orca instead. So I'm treating it to the new Magnium b/b, some Zero-G brakes, a new saddle and a new set of carbon bars, probably Eastons. Not that any of it will make me any faster, but I do love my toys.
    Completely understand, once the bug bites, given sufficient resources most cyclists are quickly spending 30-40k per year on their "hobby!"

    My boss has an Orca similar to yours, and i might have purchased it but we all wanted something unique to try. The Khan will have Easton carbon bars, Kuota 2 bolt carbon stem (had to get it from Switzerland), ZG Ti brakes, Record Derauillers and Ergo power levers, AX Lightness post and saddle, PowerCordz and other sundry bits. Without much effort expecting it to build out at 14 lbs. I might throw an Easton EC90 SLX fork on, instead of the Kuota if it feels "sluggish" doing what I do worst, slogging up canyons and passes. I have quite a few climbing ultra events next year, and hoping the khan will help me crush the Son of Death Ride II in 2006 (if they have it, poor attendance and even poorer finishing stats might leave it a one hit wonder!).

    Thanks again to all who responded.
    ;)

  11. #11
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    The Answer is...ENGLISH Threading!

    Thank you all again for the feedback. The Kuota BB is English threaded.

    Brett

  12. #12
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    Pics

    Hay man, how about some pics?????????

  13. #13
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    Talking Pics in One Week!

    Quote Originally Posted by HazemBata
    Hay man, how about some pics?????????
    Happy to, but right now it is a frame and a bunch of boxes! My project should be done by New Year. The weather has been very nice in Northern Cal, although rainy season may have just kicked in. Hoping to tackle the planetultra King of the Mountain series beginning in April, so this gives me a few months to tweak and dial the bike in. Can't wait to see where it tips the scales as well, although "climbability" is the most important criteria!

    Brett
    [B]

  14. #14
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    Work in progress...

    Give us some 'work in progress pics.' The Khan is one of my favorite bikes. Come on...you know you wanna.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bschec7
    Happy to, but right now it is a frame and a bunch of boxes! My project should be done by New Year. The weather has been very nice in Northern Cal, although rainy season may have just kicked in. Hoping to tackle the planetultra King of the Mountain series beginning in April, so this gives me a few months to tweak and dial the bike in. Can't wait to see where it tips the scales as well, although "climbability" is the most important criteria!

    Brett
    [B]
    Brett, kick us some pix soon. I'm in Los Gatos, let me know if you want a hand building that beauty. I strongly considered it, in the same size, 3 months ago before buying the 585 (a good deal kicked me off the fence).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rensho
    Brett, kick us some pix soon. I'm in Los Gatos, let me know if you want a hand building that beauty. I strongly considered it, in the same size, 3 months ago before buying the 585 (a good deal kicked me off the fence).
    The 585 was one of my other choices, but i was able to get the Khan frame for $2200, which helped quite a bit. Still waiting for the dang Phil Wood BB and a new set of Look Keo Ti pedals to arrive. Then i have everything. The ZG brakes are really pretty, smaller somehow than i was expecting. Actually, still waiting on the Kuota stem as well.

    So the building is a few days off. After the break i have to spend a few days in Vegas for the CES show, so most likely will not have my first ride until jan 10 or so.


    I promise I will post pics of all the boxes and the frame, and then hopefully a good clean build! First time i have tackled the experience myself, so hopefully I avoid cracking bars or other more critical carbon bits.

    Funny, have been out (in the rain!) the past few days climbing Old La Honda and Tunitas Creek on my Colnago Dream Lux, and actually starting to grow comfortable with the bike (purchased last April). Not very light at 16.5 lbs; however, have made some minor upgrades of late. Biggest was adding American Classic 350 "training" wheels, and getting rid of those ghastly Kyserium SSL's. Has really made the ride more compliant, and with Conti Attack/Force and veloplugs has shed 1/2 lb. Have also discovered that a REALLY good and light set of shoes, not that Sidi pablum Genius stuff has added about 1 mph (Carnac and DMT with carbon sooles are on sale all over the place). The last upgrade has helped more than anticipated. An IRD alloy 11-25 cassette. It is much lighter than my Campy Record Ti/Steel, but far more importantly this thing is silent, improved shifting, and worth every dollar.

    Have only been cycling for three years, and have progressed from Litespeed, through Cervelo, to Colnago, and now hopefully to building a Kuota Carbon dream. All of my other expensive hobbies have been shut down. Audio. Computers. Plasma screens. Who cares? Not when i have a few long climbs such as Eureka Canyon to keep my mind and body wonderfully tuned

  17. #17
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    interesting component selections...

    It's always interesting to read what components people believe to work the best and are worth the money. The weight weenie parts are the most amusing. Hundreds of dollars spent for parts that won't take more than few seconds off a 3-hour ride. If you're not racing competitively, then they are really of little value. If you're not at racing weight with single digit body fat, it's even sillier.

    Most reports on IRD cogs haven't been that positive. Don't expect an alloy cogset to last very long. They are really intended for race-day only, not every day use.

    As for wheels, I ride nothing but Ksyrium SSLs and really like them. They probably do feel stiff on an Aluminumm frame, but I've never found them to be overly harsh on a carbon frame. I can ride them all season and only tweak a spoke or two at the end of the year to true them up.

    I didn't understand the comment about the shoes, I really like Sidi myself. They fit me perfectly and they're extrememly durable. What was it that you think improves speed by 1MPH? It takes some enormous improvement to do that. Even dropping the bike weight by 10 pounds won't do that unless your entire ride is uphill.

  18. #18
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    Chewing the fat! (OT)

    Quote Originally Posted by C-40
    It's always interesting to read what components people believe to work the best and are worth the money. The weight weenie parts are the most amusing. Hundreds of dollars spent for parts that won't take more than few seconds off a 3-hour ride. If you're not racing competitively, then they are really of little value. If you're not at racing weight with single digit body fat, it's even sillier.

    Most reports on IRD cogs haven't been that positive. Don't expect an alloy cogset to last very long. They are really intended for race-day only, not every day use.

    As for wheels, I ride nothing but Ksyrium SSLs and really like them. They probably do feel stiff on an Aluminumm frame, but I've never found them to be overly harsh on a carbon frame. I can ride them all season and only tweak a spoke or two at the end of the year to true them up.

    I didn't understand the comment about the shoes, I really like Sidi myself. They fit me perfectly and they're extrememly durable. What was it that you think improves speed by 1MPH? It takes some enormous improvement to do that. Even dropping the bike weight by 10 pounds won't do that unless your entire ride is uphill.
    C-40,

    One of the things i learned as an inveterate audiophile for many years, is that folks will characterize small changes in cables, power conditioners and other black magic as "revolutionary, visceral and astounding" to vette the money they spent on much of this which science! I am no better, and now my new medium is cycling!

    The SSL's have been very reliable, and i have not treated the bike gently. But, on MY BIKE, the difference in feel from a slightly flexy American Classic 350 with Sapims, the lighter and somewhat softer cassette, and reduced spinning weight of veloplugs vs. rim tape, lighter tires and tubes, and carbon soled shoes from my former Sidi Genius 5's have left me with much less rotational weight, a quicker "step" up roads like Bohlman on Orbit and other 18-24% grades, and a much stiffer sole could easily provide perhaps 1/4 mph advantage at 31 mph on the flats. I could be wrong, just reporting my perspective. No "perfect" bike, component, audio system, running shoe or other hobbyist product yet exists. Never will. The confluence of so many variables and competitors will insure this remains a "constant" debate!

    Vive le difference!

    On the subject of stats and riding styles:

    1) I am currently 168 lbs, about 12% body fat and dropping for an upcoming marathon
    2) I prefer to ride UPHILL, even though i seem to have very little ability to do so quickly!
    3) I am a bat out of hell on the flats, and used to routinely mash 34 mph on flats with a Cervelo P3 for long stretches. Throw in a hill or a roller, and I fell apart though!
    4) i have now switched my riding pleasure to epic rides with lots of climbing. Double century with double climbing affairs. I will never win, but I do want to.
    5) The overarching goal is health, and the ability to ride for four or five hours, go home and eat enough Whole Foods to feed a small village!
    ;)

    My New year's Resolution has already begun, to run the Freescale (Motorola marathon) in February at 158 lbs, and under 3:30 minutes. For runners, weight matters. A lot. Unlike the bike, where i have been DUSTED by fat, 50+ men and women on 23 pound steel steeds, the pounding of running screams for less weight. Makes sense to me that if I hold my weight and fitness reasonably constant, riding a stiffer, lighter, more aero bike should mean more efficiency, or speed, or even just a better sense of energy in reserve when the ride is over. I won't know if this is true unless I try out a bunch of components, and pick what works for ME. Your "mileage" may vary!

    OK, time to hit the treadmill...

  19. #19
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    Also a recovering audiophile, and considering a Khan as my next bike. I'll be very interested to hear what you think about it. Please post and let us know what you think of it when it is all put together!

  20. #20
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    Seems it took me two years to respond! Apologies. In the interim, have logged many hard miles on the Kuota, and built up a few others (Colnago President and Pinarello Dogma FP).

    Nice little stable, here is my perspective on the personalities:

    1) Kuota Khan- Good climbing geomotry, but not particularly comfortable for long days in the saddle. Gruppo is 2005 Campy Record Compact, which does not shift anywhere near as well as 53/39. Bike built at 15 lbs., and has done many of the Breathless Agony type California climb-fests. A bit harsh as noted, and not the best descender.

    2) Colnago President 2006- Hated this when first built up with Campy Record 2006. However, it is buttery smooth, handles incredibly well, and is actually my choice for a couple of crits I have ridden recently. Very, very nice bike. The decals and finish are not resilient, but the bike is!

    3) Pinarello Dogma FP 2006- What a strange bike. I built this with Shimano Dura-Ace, which is sacrilege but saved some dollar-lire exchange woes! My bike of choice for 20-30 miles, but after that the harshness (Reynolds carbon wheels) is too much for me. Built up to 16 lbs, this one is a pocket rocket.

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