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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadBoy1 View Post
    Why do we have to CAD or CNC anything? Let's keep it real here. Remember Tulio Campagnolo was making dropouts long before computers were ever dreamed of and probably before slide rules. Let's not do a total reinvent of the wheel; or derailleur hanger to be precise :-)

    For anyone who doesn't know what a slide rule is PM me.
    The reason people keep bringing up CNC is because making this out of plate will require at least a mill to get the part that the QR closes on flat and parallel, and cutting the contour that stabilizes it against the bottom of the frame.

    To make one of these accurately without extensive mill set up or CNC, the easiest way is going to be using two layers of aluminum or composite, so you can get a file into the step.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    The reason people keep bringing up CNC is because making this out of plate will require at least a mill to get the part that the QR closes on flat and parallel, and cutting the contour that stabilizes it against the bottom of the frame.

    To make one of these accurately without extensive mill set up or CNC, the easiest way is going to be using two layers of aluminum or composite, so you can get a file into the step.
    Certainly a milling machine is the tool of choice for the job, but a CNC milling would make it much more complicated than necessary. CNC mills have to be programmed, which requires digitizing a blueprint of the part to be made, then programming tool changes and tool paths. Followed by calibrating the tools so the machine knows where the edges are. That's a ton of set up work for a simple job.

    Much easier to use a classic Bridgeport vertical mill, to rough up the part, accurately locate and drill the holes, and produce the step in back. Then the complicated contours can be done with a hand file, using the broken part as a template.

    The next easiest method is to make it freehand with a file and other hand tools using the broken part as a template. Having done similar jobs in the past, I'd glue the broken hanger to the future one. Drill the mounting holes following the old ones down, then securing the two together with split pins to keep all the locations secure. Next drill the pilot for the derailleur bolt and drill the top of the axle slot which I'd saw to later to make a slot. Then trace the outline, pop them apart and start filing and sawing. The last step is to file the step in back (if there is one) which isn't that hard, using a marker to track where I'm filing.

    Total time for the job probably an hour or two, using about 3 different files.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 02-08-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Certainly a milling machine is the tool of choice for the job, but a CNC milling would make it much more complicated than necessary. CNC mills have to be programmed, which requires digitizing a blueprint of the part to be made, then programming tool changes and tool paths. Followed by calibrating the tools so the machine knows where the edges are. That's a ton of set up work for a simple job.

    Much easier to use a classic Bridgeport vertical mill, to rough up the part, accurately locate and drill the holes, and produce the step in back. Then the complicated contours can be done with a hand file, using the broken part as a template.

    The next easiest method is to make it freehand with a file and other hand tools using the broken part as a template. Having done similar jobs in the past, I'd glue the broken hanger to the future one. Drill the mounting holes following the old ones down, then securing the two together with split pins to keep all the locations secure. Next drill the pilot for the derailleur bolt and drill the top of the axle slot which I'd saw to later to make a slot. Then trace the outline, pop them apart and start filing and sawing. The last step is to file the step in back (if there is one) which isn't that hard, using a marker to track where I'm filing.

    Total time for the job probably an hour or two, using about 3 different files.
    How does one cut an inside curve with a file? Take a good look at the part.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    How does one cut an inside curve with a file? Take a good look at the part.
    With a grinding wheel or dremel. Doesn't anyone do stuff by hand anymore?

    I used to work in a race shop fabricating custom one off parts all day long. That bracket would take no time at all with a drill , saw, files, and Dremel. A dril press and benchtop grinder would be even better.

    Piece 'o cake

    To the OP, If you are not handy with tools, find a local frame builder or race car shop and they fab what you want in about an hour.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    How does one cut an inside curve with a file? Take a good look at the part.
    I'd probably use a half round file (my favorite all purpose file). There are also round files for smaller radii, and for the smallest, like to fine tune the axle height of dropouts, rat-tail files.

    Mold makers have been using files to make complex negative curve shapes in molds for years, and continue to do so for fine touch up work. Visit any machine shop, even the most modern doing one-up work and you'll see files in all shapes and cuts. They're less common in production work because hand labor is too costly, but still used there for things like deburring and touch up.

    Given that we're working in aluminum, filing will be very fast and easy. Hint to the OP if you go this route. keep a coffee can of kerosene handy and dip the file in it every so often. This will keep it from loading up and make the job go faster.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I'd probably use a half round file (my favorite all purpose file). There are also round files for smaller radii, and for the smallest, like to fine tune the axle height of dropouts, rat-tail files.

    Mold makers have been using files to make complex negative curve shapes in molds for years, and continue to do so for fine touch up work. Visit any machine shop, even the most modern doing one-up work and you'll see files in all shapes and cuts. They're less common in production work because hand labor is too costly, but still used there for things like deburring and touch up.

    Given that we're working in aluminum, filing will be very fast and easy. Hint to the OP if you go this route. keep a coffee can of kerosene handy and dip the file in it every so often. This will keep it from loading up and make the job go faster.
    I file and grind knives for on the side. I don't know how you would file an inside 90 degree corner that is a concave curve. You could do it with a spinning cutting wheel, you could do it with a chisel. But there is no way for a file to do this - you'd never be able to file to a sharp inside corner on an inside curve.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    I file and grind knives for on the side. I don't know how you would file an inside 90 degree corner that is a concave curve. You could do it with a spinning cutting wheel, you could do it with a chisel. But there is no way for a file to do this - you'd never be able to file to a sharp inside corner on an inside curve.
    There is nothing on that broken hanger that cannot be profiled very accurately with files. Packages of files can be purchased very cheaply from places like Lowes/HD which are plenty good enough for profiling an Al part like this. Drill the four critical holes first, as they become reference points for the finished shape. Remove as much material as you can with a hacksaw, grinder, belt sander, dremmel drill or whatever you have access to, then use files for what is left. For critical spots like the der stop or the slot for the hub axle, I would simply clamp a scrap piece of metal (or even wood) next to the traced line to serve as a guide which will prevent you from filing any more than desired and keep the file at right angles to the hanger. You can achieve much more accurate results and complex detailed profiles this way than this particular der hanger requires. Most of the profiling on this particular hanger need only be pleasing to the eye. Being Al, grinders, hacksaws, belt sanders, files, and the like will make very quick work of the profiling.

    Lowes/HD even sell cheap imperial and metric taps, but many standard bike threads do not conform to industry standard bolt threads, so be sure to check if any standard bolts fit the three threaded holes. Worst case, you might have to scrounge eBay for the two taps you will need. The files and taps ought to cost about $20-$30 total.

    Probably the toughest job will be finding a scrap piece of Al that is of the desired thickness. But even then, a belt sander with a course grit could thin a finished hanger to desired thickness pretty quickly. There’s probably no reason why you couldn’t make the part in steel, so long as you always keep your rear quick release good and tight.

    Even with a very good lathe, milling machine, and a lot of other equipment that I happen to have in the basement to make very fancy complex parts, I’d still do most of the profiling of this hanger by hand with files. That hanger would take me about an hour to make – 2 hours at absolutely most.

    If you don’t feel you have the skills to make such a part, then it is probably money well spent to pay an hour or two for a machinist to make the part for you. You don't need to find a shop with fancy CNC equipment.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    I file and grind knives for on the side. I don't know how you would file an inside 90 degree corner that is a concave curve. You could do it with a spinning cutting wheel, you could do it with a chisel. But there is no way for a file to do this - you'd never be able to file to a sharp inside corner on an inside curve.
    First of all there's never a need for a sharp inside corner. Where you might feel you want one, you could work around it with a form of relief, or breaking the corners of the mating part.

    But there are a number of ways to produce a concave curve next to a wall (which is what I think you're describing). There are curved files made expressly for this kind of work, which are generally used in mold making. You might also use a knife file (not for knives, but shaped like a knife). Or as I've done many a time, modifying a file for the job. In this case grinding a curved cutting edge onto the end of a one side safe file, and using it like a shaper bit.

    There are other techniques that can be applied to get around seemingly impossible jobs if one puts ones mind to it before reaching for the milling machine.
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  9. #34
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    You could also just use scrape linoleum countertops and walnut shells and be done with it alredy.
    I hate you all

    j/k lol kthxbye!

  10. #35
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    A REAL machinist knows how to make this part either manually or using a CNC machine. Not one who drinks Kool Aid or is trying to justify his job!? (Thanks for your valuable input, whatever it meant, RoadBoy. Making automotive parts with a hammer, file, and hacksaw isn't real, its crude).

    I've been a master precision machinist, prototype developer, manufacturing and design engineer, quality engineer, and shop owner all for 40 years. My parts are in space and in every hospital in the world. I could make this on my Bridgeport Mill or $250K CNC machine in about the same time. That's just me. But the CNC is not necessary. It's the skill of the machinist, not the tools, just like it's the rider not the bike. Then again, why can't the OP just bring it to a welder and make it one again? Whatever works.

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Special Eyes View Post
    A REAL machinist knows how to make this part either manually or using a CNC machine. It's the skill of the machinist, not the tools, just like it's the rider not the bike. Then again, why can't the OP just bring it to a welder and make it one again? Whatever works.

    .

    this.....as a master jeweler with over 30 years at the bench, I feel sure I could duplicate something as simple as a derailleur hanger. There is almost no shape or angle that can't be created with hand tools let alone with the tens of thousand different shapes and sized rotary burs in a flex shaft. If it was me, I would make one...HOWEVER, the simple fact that the OP NEEDS one shows a flaw in the original design or execution. I would see what I could do about getting the NEW one RIGHT!....it sure as hell wouldn't be aluminum!
    Of course I'm sure...that doesn't mean I'm right.....

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    First of all there's never a need for a sharp inside corner. Where you might feel you want one, you could work around it with a form of relief, or breaking the corners of the mating part.

    But there are a number of ways to produce a concave curve next to a wall (which is what I think you're describing). There are curved files made expressly for this kind of work, which are generally used in mold making. You might also use a knife file (not for knives, but shaped like a knife). Or as I've done many a time, modifying a file for the job. In this case grinding a curved cutting edge onto the end of a one side safe file, and using it like a shaper bit.

    There are other techniques that can be applied to get around seemingly impossible jobs if one puts ones mind to it before reaching for the milling machine.
    Yup. I just didn't see how it could be done with the round file you first described, and it doesn't sound like you can, either.

    You don't need a mill, but you need a power tool for this project to not take 2 days of detail filing.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touch0Gray View Post
    this.....as a master jeweler with over 30 years at the bench, I feel sure I could duplicate something as simple as a derailleur hanger. There is almost no shape or angle that can't be created with hand tools let alone with the tens of thousand different shapes and sized rotary burs in a flex shaft. If it was me, I would make one...HOWEVER, the simple fact that the OP NEEDS one shows a flaw in the original design or execution. I would see what I could do about getting the NEW one RIGHT!....it sure as hell wouldn't be aluminum!
    I don't know that it was designed or made wrong. It is supposed to break thus preventing damage to the dropout, that is why it is replaceable and should be cheap and easy to do so.
    Clearly a radius at the base of the step would have made the hanger stronger and less likely to fatigue/break, but would it have still broken cleanly like it is supposed to do?

    The only real failure is see here is that the Manufacture no longer supports a key component of their product even though it is only a few years old.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touch0Gray View Post
    this.....as a master jeweler with over 30 years at the bench, I feel sure I could duplicate something as simple as a derailleur hanger. There is almost no shape or angle that can't be created with hand tools let alone with the tens of thousand different shapes and sized rotary burs in a flex shaft. If it was me, I would make one...HOWEVER, the simple fact that the OP NEEDS one shows a flaw in the original design or execution. I would see what I could do about getting the NEW one RIGHT!....it sure as hell wouldn't be aluminum!
    So next time the frame will break, saving the hanger? That's a good idea.

    Hey, how about making the hanger out of rubber? That wouldn't break, either.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Yup. I just didn't see how it could be done with the round file you first described, and it doesn't sound like you can, either.

    You don't need a mill, but you need a power tool for this project to not take 2 days of detail filing.
    I guess you've never seen a frame builder clean up the inside corner of complex cut lugs. It's not the fastest process, but not outrageously slow.

    Fabricating the hanger by hand shouldn't take too long, but of course a vertical mill would be faster. Then again you have to factor set up time.

    In practice, I'd do the job using a drill press and band saw to rough up the part, then the Bridgeport to mill the step or recess. But that's because I have the equipment. The OP probably doesn't. He might find machine shop that specializes in prototype and repair work, but they're a dying breed, and it won't be cheap. Or he can do it himself using what's he has or can afford.

    Depending on his circumstances 2 hours or even 4 hours of his time might much more sense than shelling out $50.00 or likely more to have someone do it for him.

    It's very easy to say things can't be done, but that's usually not helpful. I post to try to give folks constructive ideas of how it can.
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  16. #41
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    find someone with a unimat....it'd be the tool for the job!
    Of course I'm sure...that doesn't mean I'm right.....

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I guess you've never seen a frame builder clean up the inside corner of complex cut lugs. It's not the fastest process, but not outrageously slow.

    Fabricating the hanger by hand shouldn't take too long, but of course a vertical mill would be faster. Then again you have to factor set up time.

    In practice, I'd do the job using a drill press and band saw to rough up the part, then the Bridgeport to mill the step or recess. But that's because I have the equipment. The OP probably doesn't. He might find machine shop that specializes in prototype and repair work, but they're a dying breed, and it won't be cheap. Or he can do it himself using what's he has or can afford.

    Depending on his circumstances 2 hours or even 4 hours of his time might much more sense than shelling out $50.00 or likely more to have someone do it for him.

    It's very easy to say things can't be done, but that's usually not helpful. I post to try to give folks constructive ideas of how it can.
    Again, you seem to confuse what is possible with what is practical. Cleaning up soft brass on a steel lug with the right file is a lot different than removing 1/4" of material to create an inside corner on a block of homogenous and sticky aluminum. It would take many hours to do well and require specialty files they don't sell at Ace.

    There are a lot of practical ways to make this piece, but filing isn't one of them. Using power tools, using two mated piece or even creating the ledge by building it up with JB are all far more practical.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Again, you seem to confuse what is possible with what is practical. .
    And you seem confused, inferring that I was saying that filing was the best or only way to do the job. I've posted a few times that I'd use such power tools as I had access too.

    I posted what was possible (something you say isn't). The OP's situation and the specifics of the job will determine what's practical. There's nothing wrong with modifying the design to make it easier to make, using whatever power tools one has, building it in two pieces glued or pinned together, or whatever works.

    What doesn't make sense is to limit the OP's options to methods that may be cost prohibitive or unavailable to him.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    And you seem confused, inferring that I was saying that filing was the best or only way to do the job. I've posted a few times that I'd use such power tools as I had access too.

    I posted what was possible (something you say isn't). The OP's situation and the specifics of the job will determine what's practical. There's nothing wrong with modifying the design to make it easier to make, using whatever power tools one has, building it in two pieces glued or pinned together, or whatever works.

    What doesn't make sense is to limit the OP's options to methods that may be cost prohibitive or unavailable to him.
    You originally said you could cut the shelf with a round file, which I said wasn't possible. Then you changed it to a speciality file.

    Almost anything is possible - you can cut steel with dental floss and toothpaste if you have enough time. But what you suggest is so difficult and requires so much skill and special tools, why insist that it is even in the range of viable options? If you were talking to a die maker with the skills and tools to do this, he'd have already made himself a new hanger.
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  20. #45
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    I have just built up a pre-owned ( for 20 days ) 2012 Specialized Allez , but when i bought the frame i didn't know if it had a hanger or no , so , i looked online ( yes ebay ) and found a company in Canada that sells custom billet hangers

    its called

    northshorebillet.com ( no affiliation at all ) , just a satisfied customer ,

    its a very accurate milled part that weighs less than the original , and looks very cool in its finish against my black paintwork , and is a perfect fit

    now i'm not saying they will have or make what you need , but its a starting point , and the hanger was only £9 Uk ,

    as it turned out, my frame came with a hanger , but i still used the billet one rather than the original cast one as it looks way better , and is lighter

    BB

  21. #46
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    Try contacting the US importer, gitabike.com, and asking if they have any. If not, tell them what you're trying to accomplish and see if they'll offer a list of US dealers. Start calling around; usually somebody has one in a spare parts drawer. You could also try R+A Cycles; they're an on-line Merckx dealer. Next, I'd try contacting Calfee Design. See if they can replace the entire dropout. They may have to replace both dropouts so they match but it still might be cheaper than a new frame.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Special Eyes View Post
    Then again, why can't the OP just bring it to a welder and make it one again? Whatever works.
    That's what I was thinking as I read this thread. A little weld and some grinding/filing might not be ideal or a permanent solution but it could work. Of course you would no longer have the perfect specimen for a machinist.
    "If you cant fix it with a hammer, you got yourself an electrical problem"

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touch0Gray View Post
    this.....as a master jeweler with over 30 years at the bench, I feel sure I could duplicate something as simple as a derailleur hanger. There is almost no shape or angle that can't be created with hand tools let alone with the tens of thousand different shapes and sized rotary burs in a flex shaft. If it was me, I would make one...HOWEVER, the simple fact that the OP NEEDS one shows a flaw in the original design or execution. I would see what I could do about getting the NEW one RIGHT!....it sure as hell wouldn't be aluminum!
    No, it definitely worked as intended- it bent instead of cracking the carbon rear stays. Aluminum is perfect for this application.

  24. #49
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    This is helpful and gave me some ideas.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    Anyone ever had a derailleur hanger made by a local machinist? I've tried all the online places and they won't do one-offs (Wheels Mfg, Pilo, derailleurhangers.com). The original frame manufacturer (Merckx) doesn't support their 6-year old models (under new management). It seems simple enough to make, and should be cheaper than a new frame.
    Here is a company that makes custom derailleur hangers for any bike for a pretty fair price Custom Derailleur Hangers or clmachineworks.com

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