Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 87
  1. #26
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,249
    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    If you wait to let if fall into place you will get more miles out of your chain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    It's not even to .5 yet and you're warning of cassette damage?
    I obviously missed his sarcasm, but you missed the point.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  2. #27
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I obviously missed his sarcasm, but you missed the point.
    And still am. What point were you making?

  3. #28
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,569
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Who cares? The only thing that matters is if they show the chain is worn out when it is not. Everything up to that point is academic.
    My point was if someone who is unfamiliar with this chain checker's idiosyncrasies will see 0.5 and think the chain is worn.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  4. #29
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    My point was if someone who is unfamiliar with this chain checker's idiosyncrasies will see 0.5 and think the chain is worn.

    If a tool cannot correctly say when a chain is 0.5 worn....why would it correctly say when an item is 0.75 worn?
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  5. #30
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,569
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    If a tool cannot correctly say when a chain is 0.5 worn....why would it correctly say when an item is 0.75 worn?
    Precisely!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  6. #31
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: upstateSC-rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,587
    Question for the ruler advocates...when checking the chain on the bike, does it matter how much tension you have on the chain, for example small/small or big/big?
    In reference to the Assault on Mt Mitchell...
    Quote Originally Posted by merckx56
    The easier solution is to find a biker bar in Spartanburg the night before, go in and pick a fight. The ass-whipping you'll get will be far less painful than the one Mitchell will give you the next day!

  7. #32
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    Question for the ruler advocates...when checking the chain on the bike, does it matter how much tension you have on the chain, for example small/small or big/big?
    Only if Thor Hurshov is on the bike and pushing down on the pedals!
    BANNED

  8. #33
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    If a tool cannot correctly say when a chain is 0.5 worn....why would it correctly say when an item is 0.75 worn?
    Because it isn't designed to monitor the progression of wear, but when the wear reaches a certain limit. The assumption that a certain amount of wear at X miles will mean a certain future amount of wear at X+Y is mistaken.

    The tool is there to tell you when the chain is worn out, that's all. It won't predict a wear schedule.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  9. #34
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Because it isn't designed to monitor the progression of wear, but when the wear reaches a certain limit. The assumption that a certain amount of wear at X miles will mean a certain future amount of wear at X+Y is mistaken.

    The tool is there to tell you when the chain is worn out, that's all. It won't predict a wear schedule.

    And it sucks at doing that...so why are you making excuses for it, still?
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  10. #35
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    And it sucks at doing that...so why are you making excuses for it, still?
    I see no evidence of that, and I see no reason a ruler can measure the wear to the parts of the chain that actually cause cog wear. You might as well hold the ruler up against the box the chain came in.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  11. #36
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    I see no evidence of that, and I see no reason a ruler can measure the wear to the parts of the chain that actually cause cog wear. You might as well hold the ruler up against the box the chain came in.

    So instead of continuing to prove your ignorance and argue with those who do see "reason"...why not stop talking?

    Bicycle Chain and Sprocket Engagement and Wear

    Ironically on Park Tool's page on measuring chain wear, Ruler method is #2 and their own crappy tool is #3 and #4

    https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...icle-section-3


    Park tool makes some nice tools...and some bad ones.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  12. #37
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    So instead of continuing to prove your ignorance and argue with those who do see "reason"...why not stop talking?

    Bicycle Chain and Sprocket Engagement and Wear

    Ironically on Park Tool's page on measuring chain wear, Ruler method is #2 and their own crappy tool is #3 and #4

    https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...icle-section-3


    Park tool makes some nice tools...and some bad ones.
    Hey Mr. Aggression, I'm not ignorant - I'm very aware of the angular wear issues that rollers create, which is why I created this diagram years ago:



    Anyone can post something on the internet reflecting their belief about how chains wear, regardless of whether they design chains or just work at a bike shop. You can look at the geometry I've posted and argue with that.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  13. #38
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Hey Mr. Aggression, I'm not ignorant - I'm very aware of the angular wear issues that rollers create, which is why I created this diagram years ago:



    Anyone can post something on the internet reflecting their belief about how chains wear, regardless of whether they design chains or just work at a bike shop. You can look at the geometry I've posted and argue with that.

    Rollers aren't the only thing that wear, hoss.

    But yes, please tell Park Tool and Sheldon Brown how you know chains wear and they don't.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  14. #39
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Rollers aren't the only thing that wear, hoss.

    But yes, please tell Park Tool and Sheldon Brown how you know chains wear and they don't.
    I don't need to, because the Park website calls the ruler "ballpark" and the Sheldon Brown article talks about the specific issue of roller wear and chain wrap without coming to the obvious conclusion that it matters, despite citing previous sources of how it does. I don't know what you're extracting from those websites that makes you believe roller wear is immaterial.


    Should I be surprised that your reaction to a concrete example of roller wear geometry gets a thoughtless dismissal? "Rollers aren't the only thing that wear" is exactly right, hoss. So why are you ignoring them? Their wear in no way predicts the wear measured by the ruler. If bike drivetrains worked on pin heads a ruler would be perfect, but they don't.
    Last edited by Kontact; 12-30-2017 at 02:58 PM.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  15. #40
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    I don't need to, because the Park website calls the ruler "ballpark" and the Sheldon Brown article talks about the specific issue of roller wear and chain wrap without coming to the obvious conclusion that it matters, despite citing previous sources of how it does. I don't know what you're extracting from those websites that makes you believe roller wear is immaterial.

    A ruler is far less "ballpark" than Park's feeler-gauge chain-checker that calls a brand new chain within manufacturing specification 50% worn. What is so hard about this, and why argue a crappy tool is just that?


    Campag 11s chains IME do tend to wear more at the rollers than other chains. Probably why Campagnolo advises using a caliper (not a chain checker) to measure the roller pitch averaged over 6 links (new=132.00mm, shot 132.6mm). Whereas SRAM/Shimano derailleur chains tend to wear at the pivots more. IME.


    If you want to measure roller-wear, the correct tool that will get you an accurate and repeatable result is a caliper...not a Park chain checker. Either use Campagnolos 132.6mm metric (you can push it to 132.7 IME without worry), or measure individual roller pitch (0.200" new, 0.215" is time to replace). The ruler test is more simple/stupid and generally will call a worn chain a worn chain, and will always call a new chain a new chain. It is possible for a chain to have worn rollers and fine pivots--but not too likely.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  16. #41
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,249
    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    Question for the ruler advocates...when checking the chain on the bike, does it matter how much tension you have on the chain, for example small/small or big/big?
    You don't think the tension on the chain changes if it's in different gear combinations do you?
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  17. #42
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    A ruler is far less "ballpark" than Park's feeler-gauge chain-checker that calls a brand new chain within manufacturing specification 50% worn. What is so hard about this, and why argue a crappy tool is just that?
    A basic one piece checker doesn't call a new chain 50% worn. It will call a chain that has .5% or .7% elongation those things, and suggests replacing the chain at those points.

    You are the one assuming that a 50% wear indication means "half way to worn out". That is not what the tool was designed to say - it is a simple go/no go, and everything up to that point is an approximation, not a schedule.


    If you want to measure roller-wear, the correct tool that will get you an accurate and repeatable result is a caliper...not a Park chain checker. Either use Campagnolos 132.6mm metric (you can push it to 132.7 IME without worry), or measure individual roller pitch (0.200" new, 0.215" is time to replace). The ruler test is more simple/stupid and generally will call a worn chain a worn chain, and will always call a new chain a new chain. It is possible for a chain to have worn rollers and fine pivots--but not too likely.
    I don't need to measure roller wear, I just need to know when the total wear is unacceptable. One piece chain checker tools measure the correct part of the chain, a ruler cannot.

    That doesn't mean that all chain checkers are perfect, just that the concept is much more reasonable than a ruler. There are still good tools and bad.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  18. #43
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You don't think the tension on the chain changes if it's in different gear combinations do you?
    Since it is running through a spring powered idler, it does have more tension in some combinations.

    Just not enough to matter.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  19. #44
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: upstateSC-rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Since it is running through a spring powered idler, it does have more tension in some combinations.

    Just not enough to matter.
    Excellent. Thanks.
    In reference to the Assault on Mt Mitchell...
    Quote Originally Posted by merckx56
    The easier solution is to find a biker bar in Spartanburg the night before, go in and pick a fight. The ass-whipping you'll get will be far less painful than the one Mitchell will give you the next day!

  20. #45
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,249
    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    If you wait to let if fall into place you will get more miles out of your chain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    It's not even to .5 yet and you're warning of cassette damage?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Since it is running through a spring powered idler, it does have more tension in some combinations.

    Just not enough to matter.
    You're saying the tension changes as the pulley cage changes position?
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  21. #46
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You're saying the tension changes as the pulley cage changes position?
    The lower pulley, as it moves forward, winds the coil spring in the lower knuckle to a greater spring tension than when it is more relaxed and in the rear position.

    If no one is pedaling and you are just servicing the drivetrain, the only tension on the chain comes from the pulley cage arm's spring. So 'yes', the chain tension is going to vary. Just not enough to matter.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  22. #47
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    171
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You're saying the tension changes as the pulley cage changes position?
    Is this a serious question?

    BTW, why are you quoting three different posts when you are only responding to the last one?

  23. #48
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,249
    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Is this a serious question?

    BTW, why are you quoting three different posts when you are only responding to the last one?
    The site quotes whatever I've quoted in previous posts automatically. And yes...unless the derailleur pivot spring is a rising rate spring why would the tension change? You might want to test this before you answer...I've checked it before and there is virtually no change in the spring tension based on cage position. At least on non-clutch Shimano derailleurs.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  24. #49
    Not a rocket surgeon.
    Reputation: tihsepa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    9,402
    Several things.
    1. That chain checker is garbage.
    2. I dont care how ofter you replace your chain.
    3. Why do people love to argue? Who gives a damn how often someone changes a chain?
    Those checkers sell chains. Replace the chain when it says its worn out. You will never wear out a cassette and will change alot of chains. I couldnt care less.
    Learn to use a ruler.

  25. #50
    Happily absent RBR Member
    Reputation: Kontact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,940
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    The site quotes whatever I've quoted in previous posts automatically. And yes...unless the derailleur pivot spring is a rising rate spring why would the tension change? You might want to test this before you answer...I've checked it before and there is virtually no change in the spring tension based on cage position. At least on non-clutch Shimano derailleurs.
    All normal springs go up in tension as they are compressed. Normal springs increase tension linearly with a given amount of movement, and progressive springs do so in curve.

    It isn't a practical consideration for chain checking, but it is a physical reality. And I can assure you that every spring on a bike derailleur, brake caliper or suspension fork increases resistance as it compresses. 1 pound = 1 inch, 2 pounds = 2 inches, etc.

    Maybe this will help you:
    Linear vs progressive rate springs | Automotive Thinker - Discussing the finer points of automobiles
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Park Tool CT-4.2 Master Chain Tool
    By lgh in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-30-2012, 07:09 PM
  2. Park Tool Chain Tool 4.2 or Shimano TL-CN32 Pro ?
    By omega1848 in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-29-2010, 02:19 PM
  3. Can i use Park CT-5 chain tool to remove KMC Z510HX chain?
    By skyliner1004 in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-05-2010, 05:36 PM
  4. Accu Gauge pressure gauge junk?
    By ZenNMotion in forum Cyclocross
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-28-2008, 01:44 PM
  5. Chain wear = crank wear & cassette wear? true? false? bs?
    By jakerson in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-15-2006, 11:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.