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Retroshift

16K views 48 replies 11 participants last post by  shinewheel 
#1 ·
#3 ·
Thanks - I'm hoping that they will be along the lines of the commands.
I had a pair of those on my Vitus Carbone 3 w/ 7sp Superbe pro. It was a real shame that the index detents didn't allow them to be used in index mode with any other freewheel than Suntour - after ST went belly up, it became harder & harder to find parts.:(
 
#5 ·
retrOshift...

Hello world!

Typed in 'retroshift' into the Google this eve to take me to our web site to see if it had been updated and noticed a link to this thread. I have been working on getting these new shifters finished and it was very exciting to see that someone on the net has noticed :) Thx!

I am actually expecting our first run of pre-production parts to be machined this Thursday here in Portland and if the planets align will have them anodized and built up by the middle of next week. These will be sample sets of the production design for some local cross racers to get dirty and to give their final blessing. I am very keen that all design work be done hand in hand with real world testers and will continue this for the future development of the design.

What we have come up with is a very simple solution for an integrated brake/shifter that provides the same level of shift/brake control from the hoods as STI/Ergopower/SRAM. This system is designed for bikes with drop bars only and will do fine on a road bike/tandem/touring or commuter bike but due to our love of cross here in the NW and the abuse that cross inflicts on our gear we think it is at a clear advantage over the other systems in this realm. It also makes for a great place for stress testing. If it works well in cross it will probably do fine elsewhere!

I have been riding prototypes along with a few others all summer and will be so very happy when the wraps are all off. The goal is to have the web content done by the last week of November. Finished photos and VIDEO of the system.

Cheers!

Adam
Portland, Oregon
 
#6 ·
Thanks Adam, Have been viewing your site for the last couple of months waiting for pictures/clues about goatshift. Still haven't found any stealth photos of your Portland testers online. Looking forward to seeing how they will fare in New Zealand conditions. Best, Nigel :)
 
#7 ·
New Zealand

Hi Nigel,

These should be super for New Zealand, not that different from the NW here in Oregon. We are setting up the page to make shifters available to the U.S. only at this time as just too big a task to figure out international sales from the get go but if you decide you like what you see then please feel free to contact me here and I will be happy to take the time to figure out and ship overseas for you.

I put up a picture on the site today of the first part (of a part) for proofing. It shows the general shape (outline) of the part and the top surface that will interface with..... the front of a brake lever.... This part makes up one third of the system. The other two parts are a pretty standard brake lever and a pretty standard down tube shifter. That's it!

I talked to the anodizer today and we are tentatively lined up to have parts anodized on Monday and I will try to get a picture up again then, and maybe Friday eve a finished pre-anodized part.

What you are soon to see is a stunningly simple solution. :)
 
#15 · (Edited)
fUgly



Shojii,

I have ridden the Take Offs (and every other system I could lay my hands on) and I have tremendous respect for anyone who actually creates and builds an alternate system. As I am finding out, it takes allot of work!

I like designs where form follows function and think the Take Off's are a pretty cool solution to putting the shift levers near the brakes. I do not use them however and don't really count them as a real shift/brake solution as they miss the key design element - they are not even close to as easy as STI to use.

STI has set the standard for ease of braking and shifting from one hand position.. I like to think that Retroshift will be a very real alternative to STI just like Ergopower and SRAM are for the very simple reason that it works just as well. That said there are always trade offs between these systems and here are a couple that come to mind:

STI Dura Ace will shift up 3 gears at a time, down 1 at a time. Retroshift will shift up or down 5 gears at a time. Retroshift will also do this with a little more speed than STI.

STI Dura Ace will shift easily from hoods or drops. Retroshift will shift easily from hoods but not from the drops. If you are contesting sprint finishes then Retroshift is probably not for you, but if you ride a good deal of the time on the hoods like is generally done in Cyclocross (also commuting, touring and even some cases racing) then it might be a compelling option.

STI Ultegra 6700 weighs in at 447g/pair. It is too early to say what our first generation units will weigh but the prototypes were just under 400g, so perhaps even some weight savings and more comparable to Dura Ace's 395g/pair.

STI Ultegra retails for about $340 here in the USA, Dura Ace for $400+. Retroshift price (barring any unforeseen surprises) is expected to be about $240 for a 10 speed set up (double or triple chain ring).

STI has the disadvantage of being complicated and can become unreliable with the application of mud and the other rigors of cyclocross. They can also be less than desirable for touring or in a situation where reliability is of high priority. Retroshift is as reliable as your old down tube shifters. On top of this retroshift can also be set up for Shimano 9 or 10 speed indexing and friction. Friction is a nice option for 5, 6, 7 or 8 speed cassettes where STI is not an option. It is hoped that Retroshift will enable the prolonged life of many still good derailleur’s you might have laying around. We like to encourage re-use and re-cycling of bike parts.

I am in a time crunch at present. I am off to Hong Kong Nov 3rd - 15th and am doing all I can to get some of the new sets built up before I leave. If all goes as hoped I should have a video posted on Vimeo with a link so you can see the system in action. A sneak peak a good few weeks before I have the photos/web site ready.

Cheers

Adam
 
#17 ·
I guess your success will come down to whether people will pay $240 for an aftermarket, hoods-only shifter, instead of $140 for an aftermarket brifter or less for a top mount, Kelly or bar end shifter.

I would suggest you come up with a method of working with SRAM deraileurs, too. SRAM doesn't have as many alternative shifters as Shimano does now, and SRAM has a good rep for dirt use.
 
G
#19 ·
STI Dura Ace will shift up 3 gears at a time, down 1 at a time. Retroshift will shift up or down 5 gears at a time. Retroshift will also do this with a little more speed than STI.
With STI it shifts down 3 at a time, up 1 at a time. This is nice for unanticipated stops -- possible to grab the brakes and simultaneously drop three gears in back in one motion.

STI Dura Ace will shift easily from hoods or drops. Retroshift will shift easily from hoods but not from the drops. If you are contesting sprint finishes then Retroshift is probably not for you, but if you ride a good deal of the time on the hoods like is generally done in Cyclocross (also commuting, touring and even some cases racing) then it might be a compelling option.[
I'm not contesting sprint finishes, but I ride solo in heavy crosswinds a lot so I like to ride in the drops most of the time on the road. (I don't have my handlebars "slammed" down though -- my usual position is lower than most people's hoods, but higher than other riders' drops)

I like the ergonomics of the STI best of the systems I've tried, but so far "what I've tried" only includes STI, SRAM, and crappy 80s downtube shifters.

The "retroshift" system looks pretty awesome for muddy situations. IMO I think it would also look more appropriate on, say, restoring an old 80s bike rebuild (Black Carbon Ultegra levers would definitely not...) while being easier to use than downtube shifters.
. I'm guessing this is where the name comes from?

I guess your success will come down to whether people will pay $240 for an aftermarket, hoods-only shifter, instead of $140 for an aftermarket brifter or less for a top mount, Kelly or bar end shifter.
It looks like shifting from the drops is at least possible, just awkward (have to reach forward a bit). Still looks better than having to deal with, say, downtube shifters where you have to take your hands pretty far from the brakes.
 
#20 ·
It looks like shifting from the drops is at least possible, just awkward (have to reach forward a bit). Still looks better than having to deal with, say, downtube shifters where you have to take your hands pretty far from the brakes.
Sounds like you'd be very well served by $80 bar end shifters. With modern compact bars they are even more accessible.
 
#21 ·
Different strokes I suppose - if I'm off road and traversing technical terrain (where I'm more likely to need to shift more) I'm mostly on the hoods. If I'm in the drops and hitting a downhill section, I've got less need to shift, so these will be perfect for me. I currently use campy TT shifters as my bar-end shifters, but these will be a better tool for me. Mud up!
 
#22 · (Edited)
Test units in assembly.

Hi PhotonFreak. The design form is a result of the specific needs of cyclocross, simple, durable and serviceable. The name 'Retroshift' came about as a result of the use of downtube shifters which are now deemed retro.

If you are down in the drops most of the time then a set of STI might well suit you better. Kontact mentioned that Barends might be a good option and they certainly are super shifting system (also simple, durable and serviceable - I am a long time fan and always thought them the BEST choice when it came to touring for instance). They will not be quite as easy to shift from the drops as retroshift, STI is still well ahead here but as Kontact points out still work well. Retroshift simply offers another option and attribute mix. I like to think of them as Barends (durable, light) with the ease of shifting of STI.

Cheers

Adam
 
#23 ·
Very nice looking. I can see where the shifter mounts on the lever. Are supplying the actually shifter? Can you use either Campy or Shimano DT shifters or barcons?
 
#25 ·
Hi cs1,

We will be providing the units naked (without shifters) and user can install their own or with 9sp or 10sp Dura Ace. To date we have only used Shimano for the project but it is likely others will also work. I plan to try some SRAM bar end shifters in the near future.

Adam
 
#26 ·
While you're at it see if Campy bar ends work. The nice thing about Campy bar ends is all it takes is a $10 bill to buy a new Ergo gear. That means you can go 8, 9 or 10 sp without buying a new shifter.
 
#28 ·
Bar End Shifters

Hi cs1,

Bar end shifters generally are much stiffer than down tube shifters and so not as ideally suited for mounting in this position, but can work. It is possible also that they could be modified to click a little easier. The return to center ones you mention would look nice sitting centered on the levers but you would loose the ability to shift more than one gear at a time, at least I am pretty sure the SRAM ones only shift one click at a time.

I have a call into my Campy aficionado to do a little research in the area of Campy DT and BE shifters. For now I feel we at least are aff to a good start with Shimano compatibility (7, 9 and 10sp all tested fine so far).

Adam
 
#32 ·
Hi cs1,

Bar end shifters generally are much stiffer than down tube shifters and so not as ideally suited for mounting in this position, but can work.
Adam
Adam

Campy barcon shifters are just their old DT shifters with a rubber cover. If you check the spare parts catalog they actually show it. The nice thing about Campy is that you can replace the Ergo Gear for about $10 and go from 9 - 10 sp.
 
#29 ·
since you appear

to be providing a place for DT shifters I assume one could go as retro as say 8 speed? I share your love and concern for all things cross and have found 8 speed to be more reliable and abuser friendly. As my stock of 8 speed STIs will slowly die from cross abuse this may be the answer I'm looking for

and thx for coming up with a solution to a very common problem.I'm guessing the levers will point in and up and rotate in toward the middle
 
#30 ·
8sp

Hi atpjunkie,

Yes I am quite sure this system will work with 8sp Shimano DT shifters. I did list them directly as I have not tried them and so just want to be safe. I would think also with 8sp (as with 7sp) that it becomes very easy to use in friction mode if you should so desire. I run 10sp friction on the road but in cross this is a little less doable, but still a great back up if needed.

Also here is a quick and dirty video I posted that will show a little of how the levers work (might answer your question as to where the levers point). Also if you look at the pictures in the thread of the bare levers in assembly you might be able to make out that we have built in some adjustability in the position that levers can be mounted. The boss can be attached so that the shift lever is in line with the brake lever in its lowest gear or 45% outbound of the brake lever.

Retroshift on Vimeo

Cheers!


Adam
 
#31 ·
thx Adam

Hi atpjunkie,

Yes I am quite sure this system will work with 8sp Shimano DT shifters. I did list them directly as I have not tried them and so just want to be safe. I would think also with 8sp (as with 7sp) that it becomes very easy to use in friction mode if you should so desire. I run 10sp friction on the road but in cross this is a little less doable, but still a great back up if needed.

Also here is a quick and dirty video I posted that will show a little of how the levers work (might answer your question as to where the levers point). Also if you look at the pictures in the thread of the bare levers in assembly you might be able to make out that we have built in some adjustability in the position that levers can be mounted. The boss can be attached so that the shift lever is in line with the brake lever in its lowest gear or 45% outbound of the brake lever.

Retroshift on Vimeo

Cheers!


Adam
works exactly as I had imagined
guess I gotta start digging up some 8 speed DT shifters, yes and friction is always an option and always nice on the front ring
 
#34 ·
Update

Hi cs1 I have still not tried them with Campy shifters but imagine should work, still plan to do so as well as with SRAM. I did have one of our test riders mount Shimano Bar End shifters instead of Dura Ace Down Tube shifters and is very happy with them.

Parts were anodized today, they will get to laser engraved beginning of next week and finish machine work and assembly the week after. Of course with Thanksgiving it might be tight. I am aiming to have site done and parts available the second week of December.

Feedback from our Cyclocross racers has been super. There is a picture of one of them using a 1X9 version on the main retroshift | Mud Proof Shifting. Designed by Goats! page.

Cheers all!

Adam
Portland, OR
 
#35 ·
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