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Thread: Rival >> 105

  1. #1
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    Rival >> 105

    I just spent some time shopping for a new bike, and I am surprised to see that bikes equipped with Rival are more expensive than 105.

    Since when? Isn't there still a bunch of molded plastic all over those rival derailers?
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    Re: Rival >> 105

    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    I just spent some time shopping for a new bike, and I am surprised to see that bikes equipped with Rival are more expensive than 105.

    Since when? Isn't there still a bunch of molded plastic all over those rival derailers?
    I think Rival is something like 400 grams lighter than 105. More in line with Ultegra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    I think Rival is something like 400 grams lighter than 105. More in line with Ultegra.
    Partly because they use a bunch of molded polyethylene or something on the derailers. Not too long ago 105 was considered pretty solid. Has the quality gone down for the new stuff at all? I have a 5600 crank and brakes and I think its pretty good. The same era Rival stuff used to cheaper than the 105.

    Is this just personal preference? Or is the quality of the two product lines inverting?
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  4. #4
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    I guess it depends on what you want.

    I personally would rather ride Sora than Rival. I hate Shimano road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tihsepa View Post

    I personally would rather ride Sora than Rival. I hate Shimano road.
    Your statement doesn't make any sense. Sora is Shimano but you say you prefer it and then say you hate Shimano road?

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    Re: Rival >> 105

    I haven't tracked the groupset cost difference, though I seem to remember 105 being slightly cheaper than Rival when I bought the Rival grouppo on eBay a few years back. But yes, similar in weight to Ultegra, so seems reasonable that it costs more than 105.

    I have bikes with both 2012 Rival and 5700-series 105. Personally I would choose Rival over 105 any day: the rear shifting is super crisp, better RD chain wrap (at least for that year) and I am interested in saving weight if it doesn't cost much more. I am not sure I would choose Rival over Ultegra, though, as I do slightly prefer the ergonomics of Shimano (big hands) and find that double-tap shifting can get a bit difficult if your RD is out of adjustment. (On the whole, though, I find Sram is easier to setup and needs less tweaking for clean shifts.)

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    Re: Rival >> 105

    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    Partly because they use a bunch of molded polyethylene or something on the derailers. Not too long ago 105 was considered pretty solid. Has the quality gone down for the new stuff at all? I have a 5600 crank and brakes and I think its pretty good. The same era Rival stuff used to cheaper than the 105.

    Is this just personal preference? Or is the quality of the two product lines inverting?
    I agree it is personal preference but mine is definitly towards the Sram and since really the only objective measurable difference is in weight Sram has them beat badly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabondcyclist View Post
    Your statement doesn't make any sense. Sora is Shimano but you say you prefer it and then say you hate Shimano road?
    Whoops.

    I ment sram. Too many beers before noon? (Not really)

  9. #9
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    Ok, let me rephrase.

    Anyone have any bad experiences with 5700? The finish and function of 105 used to be pretty decent, has the quality improved, declined, etc? I am interested particularly in the drivetrain. Shifters, cranks, derailers.
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    I don't see any plastic in the 5700 derailleurs, I am sure the shifters have some plastic bits, but they always have in the past as well. (don't have any 5700 shifters, but my 6700 has plastic bits, wife's bike is all 5700 105 except for the shifters which are carbon Microshift). Honestly the 5700 derailleurs look almost identical to the 6700, particularly the RD, there are minor differences in the FD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    Ok, let me rephrase.

    Anyone have any bad experiences with 5700? The finish and function of 105 used to be pretty decent, has the quality improved, declined, etc? I am interested particularly in the drivetrain. Shifters, cranks, derailers.
    5700 rear shifting felt sloppy and loose to me. There was too much lever travel before shifting, IMO. It felt worse than the previous generation, again IMO. I ended up swapping out the group with the years-old Rival I had on another bike and I haven't looked back. I have Apex on my CX bike and I'd still take that over 5700.

    As for why Rival is more expensive than 5700, my first guess would be that Shimano is getting aggressive about their pricing to keep from losing ground in the mid-range territory. They handle enough volume to be able to do that.

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    I made the "frog leap" and I regretted it. I love the brifter shapes, but the shifting and the actual construction of Rival is suspect.

    I was also disappointed in the plastic construction of the components. Also the endless broken shifter paddles made of aluminum during their first couple generations of Rival. Yes, Shimano uses plastic too, but not in places I wouldn't expect them.

    My Rival hasn't broken, but then again I don't really ride my cross bike that much. Now if Shimano would copy the SRAM shifter shapes... that would be ballin' out of control for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love Commander View Post
    5700 rear shifting felt sloppy and loose to me. There was too much lever travel before shifting, IMO.
    This has been my general impression; Rival indexing just feels much more predictable and consistent. I have also had a couple of issues with my 105 shifters (the FD shifter) where they will fail to grab cable at all. Usually clicking around a little bit fixes this problem, but it's disconcerting. (Maybe just dirty in the shifter or something.)

    I have also had a 105 derailleur screw seem to back out on me (or screw in, actually, decreasing cable tension). I replaced it with a newer year derailleur and have not had problems since, but I've never heard of having to replace a RD w/ only 10k miles on it.

    To be fair here, I use 105 on my commuter + cross bike. It gets ridden year-round in all weather. And it also gets ridden on sigletrack, so I am not gentle on that bike. Despite some glitches, 105 has not failed me. I do think the 1:1 pull on the Sram makes for cleaner gear changes, but you have to be comfortable with the double-tap design and the smaller shifter hoods. I think the big plastic levers look tacky on my 105 compared to the carbon Rival levers, but neither have broken for me.

    In the end, you're not going to go wrong with either groupset. Ride them both and then choose the one that makes the most sense comfort/weight/price-wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pushstart View Post
    I have also had a couple of issues with my 105 shifters (the FD shifter) where they will fail to grab cable at all. Usually clicking around a little bit fixes this problem, but it's disconcerting. (Maybe just dirty in the shifter or something.)
    Interesting you should say that. I found the same since brand new, and was going to make a whole thread for it, but I found that there's a little triangular tab just at the top of the small lever that sticks when the shift lever is pushed, so when you use the shifter again the shifter lever flops around. If I push that tab back into the shift hood the derailleur shifts again.

    The little tab is in the circled area in this picture
    Name:  lever.JPG
Views: 330
Size:  10.0 KB
    I think it's dumb that this is either not greased enough, is subject to colder (10C or colder weather) temperature, or infrequent use. The other shifter never does this, no other Shimano shifter I've used ever does this, no other shifter from anyone ever does this. Besides that, the system has worked without concern.

    I'd still like to ride SRAM for a while (it always has to actuate the one lever through its full range of motion in regular use), to see if I'd like to try it on my next bike, if there is one.
    Last edited by .je; 07-29-2013 at 08:09 AM.

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    Rival >> 105

    I have 105 5700 on my crit/rainy day bike. It shifts great--just as well as my DA bike and not fiddly at all. Absolutely reliable in races so far. A buddy of mine has 20000 miles on his 105 bike with zero problems.
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    allrighty...I am going with this. Seems like a lot of bike for the price, except for the wheels, but seriously can you even get an off-the-shelf cross bike with decent wheels?

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    Looks nice, but why is the lower rear bottle cage bracket screw below the derailleur band clamp? Looks hard to mount a cage setup that way, would need a long screw and a stand-off or something. Seems like poor planning unless I am missing something...

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    IMO, I feel that Apex is better than 105. I really like the Double Tap compared to Shimano's shifting which seems a bit sloppy to be. I'll soon have a Force RD and think I'm really gonna like it.

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    Rival >> 105

    Quote Originally Posted by davcruz View Post
    Looks nice, but why is the lower rear bottle cage bracket screw below the derailleur band clamp? Looks hard to mount a cage setup that way, would need a long screw and a stand-off or something. Seems like poor planning unless I am missing something...
    Off topic:

    My Allez was set up the same way and came with spacers to clear the band.

    On topic::

    The group sets are made to compete against each other. Any price difference will vary between manufactures for complete bikes, and shouldn't be attributed to the group alone.

    Also people fall into the "the more expensive it is the better quality it is" mindset a lot. Prices are a factor of supply and demand. Supply considers the cost of components and manufacturing and profit. "What does it cost to make"

    Demand takes into account the consumers thoughts "what am I willing to pay for this"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayej68 View Post
    Off topic:

    My Allez was set up the same way and came with spacers to clear the band.
    My cx bike has the same setup. Presta valve nuts worked perfectly as spacers. (A forum-gleaned solution.)

    Not entirely sure why they mount the bottles that low -- maybe for better shouldering clearance (assuming you are racing w/ bottles/cages) ?? No idea.

  21. #21
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    It makes larger bottles easier to get out of the cage, they have more space to clear the top tube.

    although in that photo they look really low...

    Quote Originally Posted by pushstart View Post
    My cx bike has the same setup. Presta valve nuts worked perfectly as spacers. (A forum-gleaned solution.)

    Not entirely sure why they mount the bottles that low -- maybe for better shouldering clearance (assuming you are racing w/ bottles/cages) ?? No idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post

    Since when? Isn't there still a bunch of molded plastic all over those rival derailers?
    Where is the "bunch of molded plastic" on the Rival derailleurs?

    I started out with a 105 equipped bike. I frequently found myself grabbing brake while shifting from the drops on Shimano.

  23. #23
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    Personally ... having owned Shimano and SRAM ... I've gone SRAM and have no desire to go back. Rival has shifted perfectly for years and other than some early shift paddle issues (several years ago) I've had Zero problems with Rival.

    I have Shimano Tiagra on my Cross/Commuter bike and honestly ... it sucks big time. It's gone thought a shift cable in less than 2000 miles, never shifts all that well, is very heavy and isn't as ergonomic as SRAM especially with full fingered or heavier gloves.

    I'd take Apex over 105 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    With that said, I wouldn't mind trying Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 11 speed, especially on my TT bike. For cable operated components though, SRAM all the way for me.

    As for the only other viable alternative in Campy ... the shifters don't fit my hands and the levers are totally in the wrong position for me, so that's something I'll never bother to own/purchase.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvantDale View Post
    Where is the "bunch of molded plastic" on the Rival derailleurs?

    I started out with a 105 equipped bike. I frequently found myself grabbing brake while shifting from the drops on Shimano.
    I don't know what its called. That knuckle that connects the pully cage to the parallelogram...
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  25. #25
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    Just to follow this up, here are a bunch of opinions and zero new insights.

    I went with a 105 cross bike. As was mentioned above it is definitely a little vague compared to the SRAM stuff I have on my race bike. But can't beat it for the money, if I wasn't going back and forth between my cross bike and race bike I probably wouldn't even notice.

    I will say the 5700 ergonomics are much improved over the older shimano sti stuff, particulary the lever pivot and the amount of mass swinging around when braking. Competition is good for consumers, glad shimano redesigned their shifters it was way over due.
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