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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Without installing a rotor, you can see that the clearance is pretty minimal. I tried two different rotors just for the sake of being thorough.

    Need to see the drive side as well. And disc brakes modulate wonderfully, you don't know anywhere near enough about how they work to make the assumptions you're making.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Need to see the drive side as well. And disc brakes modulate wonderfully, you don't know anywhere near enough about how they work to make the assumptions you're making.
    The drive side is not relevant. The non-drive side of the axle protrudes 17.9mm beyond the disc rotor moun, which is pretty standard. That (along with the positioning of the caliper mount) dictates the clearance for a rotor when the skewer is fully tightened. Is there something else you know?

    On a related note: I know exactly how disc brakes work. And I've been riding bikes long enough to know that people in the bike industry perpetuate as fact anecdotes and arbitrary claims that are completely unsubstantiated with scientific evidence. The only claim about disc brakes that holds up to scrutiny is its superior performance in wet conditions. The assertion that they modulate better than rim brakes is absurd, and it reeks of ignorance. Any brake - rim or disc - can modulate extremely well or extremely poorly, depending on its design and setup. It has absolutely nothing to do with where the friction is applied.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    The drive side is not relevant. The non-drive side of the axle protrudes 17.9mm beyond the disc rotor moun, which is pretty standard. That (along with the positioning of the caliper mount) dictates the clearance for a rotor when the skewer is fully tightened. Is there something else you know?

    On a related note: I know exactly how disc brakes work. And I've been riding bikes long enough to know that people in the bike industry perpetuate as fact anecdotes and arbitrary claims that are completely unsubstantiated with scientific evidence. The only claim about disc brakes that holds up to scrutiny is its superior performance in wet conditions. The assertion that they modulate better than rim brakes is absurd, and it reeks of ignorance. Any brake - rim or disc - can modulate extremely well or extremely poorly, depending on its design and setup. It has absolutely nothing to do with where the friction is applied.
    Maybe you can entertain us w/ your massive disc brake knowledge and let us know why it's such a bad way to slow things down. And while you're at it you can soundly defeat the reasons why cars, trucks, motorcycles, and airplanes all use them.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Maybe you can entertain us w/ your massive disc brake knowledge and let us know why it's such a bad way to slow things down. And while you're at it you can soundly defeat the reasons why cars, trucks, motorcycles, and airplanes all use them.
    Disc brakes are a great way to slow things down. I never said they weren't. But the claim about superior modulation is pure horse doo-doo.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    The drive side is not relevant.
    Seeing as you're the one at a loss for what is wrong....your idea of what is or isn't "relevant" isn't relevant.


    CXWrench knows his $hit, and lives/works the Life. Feel free to tell him off...but don't be surprised when you're complaining about a lack of help.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Disc brakes are a great way to slow things down. I never said they weren't. But the claim about superior modulation is pure horse doo-doo.
    All those vehicles I listed are definitely not going to rims brakes any time soon. Are you saying they don't need to modulate their brakes? They might as well use brake on-off switches? Really? Think hard about this before you answer. I'll be out to dinner but will check back on this stupidity later.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    All those vehicles I listed are definitely not going to rims brakes any time soon. Are you saying they don't need to modulate their brakes? They might as well use brake on-off switches? Really? Think hard about this before you answer. I'll be out to dinner but will check back on this stupidity later.
    Rim brakes are simply not feasible on a car or a motorcycle (although, who knows, maybe they were once used on them in their early days). On bicycles, however, especially road bikes, rim brakes are king. They work perfectly well. In fact, I'd venture to say that even most people riding mountain bikes today would have been perfectly happy with rim brakes, barring the issue of stopping in wet conditions. Anyway, you're not understanding my point: rim vs disc brake makes no difference with regard to modulation. Yes, some will claim that discs modulate better because the entire travel of the brake lever is used to move the brake pads a smaller distance, but that argument is BS.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Rim brakes are simply not feasible on a car or a motorcycle (although, who knows, maybe they were once used on them in their early days). On bicycles, however, especially road bikes, rim brakes are king. They work perfectly well. In fact, I'd venture to say that even most people riding mountain bikes today would have been perfectly happy with rim brakes, barring the issue of stopping in wet conditions. Anyway, you're not understanding my point: rim vs disc brake makes no difference with regard to modulation. Yes, some will claim that discs modulate better because the entire travel of the brake lever is used to move the brake pads a smaller distance, but that argument is BS.
    Prove this.

    That's how modulation works.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Prove this.

    That's how modulation works.
    OP dislikes disc brakes for bikes - but buys a new bike with them.
    OP thinks thru axles are the worst thing ever designed for a bike - but buys a new bike with them.
    OP buys DA - then complains that it is expensive.
    OP has been trying to build this new bike for over a month.
    OP ignores manufacturer recommendations because he knows better.

    Yet, you want to fall into the trap of arguing reality vs OP's opinion.

    But, I think OP was right - "most people riding mountain bikes today would have been perfectly happy with rim brakes" - because most people are like my wife, who has not touched her bike in two years. Most people do not ride bikes 4-7 days per week. So, they don't really care about any bike technology other than not having a flat tire for their one or two rides per year.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Prove this.

    That's how modulation works.
    Do you remember the Magura HS-33 hydraulic rim brakes? They were touted for their modulation. It was their main selling point. And indeed, they modulated much better than did the V-brakes that were standard during that time. The lever pull was the same. The pad travel was the same. The difference, however, was the hydraulics. I can assure you, cable-pull disc brakes are perfectly capable of modulating like dog s*** if they're not smooth.

    The increased ratio of lever pull to pad travel does indeed help with modulation, but the mechanical advantage that you get with it means that smaller movements result in much harder squeeze on the braking surface, and this negates that better modulation.

    Unless someone produces a scientifically conducted study that demonstrates superior modulation with disc brakes in a quantifiable manner, then everything you, I, and the entire bicycle industry says about modulation is nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. I know a thing or two about physics, so I'll be happy to let my speculation go toe-to-toe with with a bicycle "engineer". And yeah, the quotation marks are significant here.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    OP dislikes disc brakes for bikes - but buys a new bike with them.
    OP thinks thru axles are the worst thing ever designed for a bike - but buys a new bike with them.
    OP buys DA - then complains that it is expensive.
    OP has been trying to build this new bike for over a month.
    OP ignores manufacturer recommendations because he knows better.

    Yet, you want to fall into the trap of arguing reality vs OP's opinion.

    But, I think OP was right - "most people riding mountain bikes today would have been perfectly happy with rim brakes" - because most people are like my wife, who has not touched her bike in two years. Most people do not ride bikes 4-7 days per week. So, they don't really care about any bike technology other than not having a flat tire for their one or two rides per year.
    Actually, I haven't been building this bike for over a month. Most of that time has been waiting for parts. And dealing with two issues: 1. The damaged bearing in the pressfit BB, which I replaced without issue once I was able to remove it, and now 2. the disc rotor clearance, which is unquestionably not my fault.

    My one mistake in this process was not knowing that Shimano produced only centerlock rotors for road bikes. Had I known this, I'd have ordered my wheels with centerlock hubs.

    And what "manufacturer recommendations" have I ignored?

  12. #37
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    If only someone could produce a scientifically conducted study that demonstrates superior modulation with Magura HS-33 hydraulic rim brakes in a quantifiable manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Do you remember the Magura HS-33 hydraulic rim brakes? They were touted for their modulation. It was their main selling point. And indeed, they modulated much better than did the V-brakes that were standard during that time. The lever pull was the same. The pad travel was the same. The difference, however, was the hydraulics. I can assure you, cable-pull disc brakes are perfectly capable of modulating like dog s*** if they're not smooth.

    The increased ratio of lever pull to pad travel does indeed help with modulation, but the mechanical advantage that you get with it means that smaller movements result in much harder squeeze on the braking surface, and this negates that better modulation.

    Unless someone produces a scientifically conducted study that demonstrates superior modulation with disc brakes in a quantifiable manner, then everything you, I, and the entire bicycle industry says about modulation is nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. I know a thing or two about physics, so I'll be happy to let my speculation go toe-to-toe with with a bicycle "engineer". And yeah, the quotation marks are significant here.
    And I wonder if hydro discs modulate better than the HS-33's...

    Honest question: What is your definition of brake modulation? It appears to differ from everyone else's.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    The increased ratio of lever pull to pad travel does indeed help with modulation, but the mechanical advantage that you get with it means that smaller movements result in much harder squeeze on the braking surface, and this negates that better modulation.
    This is not correct. At a high level, modulation is just a chart of applied lever force plotted against resulting deceleration. Intra-system forces are not relevant.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by beeristasty View Post
    If only someone could produce a scientifically conducted study that demonstrates superior modulation with Magura HS-33 hydraulic rim brakes in a quantifiable manner.



    And I wonder if hydro discs modulate better than the HS-33's...

    Honest question: What is your definition of brake modulation? It appears to differ from everyone else's.
    Modulation essentially describes the correlation between control input and device output. A system that provides better modulation allows finer control of output. That's how I'd summarize it.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Disc brakes are a great way to slow things down. I never said they weren't. But the claim about superior modulation is pure horse doo-doo.
    You really are forcing the issue. Even though others here have proven you wrong, you won't admit it and appear to feel emasculated by the implication that you effed up somewhere.

    Dude, these people are trying to help you. Man up and take their advice as best you can. Remember the old saying - Don't bite the hand that is feeding you.

    And I can tell you first hand that hydraulic disc brakes do have superior modulation. I don't care about the physics of it, I only care about what it feels like on the bike. Granted that high end rim brakes have way better modulation than they ever had, there was a noticeable difference once I owned a hydro disc bike.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    This is not correct. At a high level, modulation is just a chart of applied lever force plotted against resulting deceleration. Intra-system forces are not relevant.
    You're joking, right?

    Of course they're relevant. The friction within a system is hugely important. Are you not familiar with the concepts or static and kinetic friction? A cable system will have more of both, and it'll affect the modulation of both rim and disc brakes alike.

    Furthermore, you have to remember that your braking surfaces are not uniform. While the normal force of the brake pads against the rim or disc rotor can be easily measured and controlled, the coefficient of friction and in-turn th force of friction between the braking surface doesn't increase linearly with increased normal force. Many factors ranging from temperature (ever heard of "fade" with disc brakes???) to compressibility of the braking surfaces (even on a microscopic scale) have very practical effects on how much braking force is applied per unit of braking input. And disc brakes involve much bigger temperature swings and much higher normal forces, which affect modulation.

    Look dude, I'm not some clueless idiot with nothing more than a GED to his name. I do know what I'm talking about.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I can't imagine a 140mm rotor NOT fitting any frame unless there is a giant ****-up on someone's part. It shouldn't matter whether you're using 6 bolt or CL, either rotor should end up in the same spot in space. There should be NO contact w/ the frame and there should be plenty of adjustment in the caliper so the pads don't rub on the rotor.
    Frames must have really changed. My very first attempt at installing a 140 mm disk brake rotor, the disk hits the front fork by about 5 mm. The fact that this is a 199? bicycle probably has something to do with it.
    I'm an all weather biker (except when ice is in piles in the bike lane). I'm so worried about horrid rim brake performance that I took a belt sander and put radial groves in my lovely chrome plate rim Sat afternoon. The dry performance improvement was nil. We'll see about what happens in the rain in the future.
    I'll admit my hand strength is below normal, to seriously grip the brake handle. But so is my weight - 160.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by indianajo View Post
    Frames must have really changed. My very first attempt at installing a 140 mm disk brake rotor, the disk hits the front fork by about 5 mm. The fact that this is a 199? bicycle probably has something to do with it.
    I'm an all weather biker (except when ice is in piles in the bike lane). I'm so worried about horrid rim brake performance that I took a belt sander and put radial groves in my lovely chrome plate rim Sat afternoon. The dry performance improvement was nil. We'll see about what happens in the rain in the future.
    I'll admit my hand strength is below normal, to seriously grip the brake handle. But so is my weight - 160.
    What on earth are you talking about? Way too much wtf here.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? Way too much wtf here.
    Read some of his earliest posts and you will find out.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Read some of his earliest posts and you will find out.
    Ah yes, now I remember...full on
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Modulation essentially describes the correlation between control input and device output. A system that provides better modulation allows finer control of output. That's how I'd summarize it.
    Ok, so we're close. Brake modulation is the ability to accurately and precisely apply varying levels of force to the braking surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    The increased ratio of lever pull to pad travel does indeed help with modulation, but the mechanical advantage that you get with it means that smaller movements result in much harder squeeze on the braking surface, and this negates that better modulation.
    So having defined modulation above - your argument doesn't take into account the amount of force applied to the brake lever. For examples sake: let's say a cable actuated brake has a 1:1 pull ratio and the hydro has a 5:1 advantage. You're going to apply less force on the levers with the hydros, which allows you to incrementally feather the brakes much easier than if you're sporting a semi flaccid death grip on a set of rim brakes.

    This is why (hydro) discs are renown for offering superb modulation versus other current brake systems.

    Throwing in brake fade is a mild half-truth that only supports one side of your argument at the very extreme levels of operation - the same heavy amount of braking on a rim brake is going to fry the pads and render a rim brake just as useless.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by beeristasty View Post
    Ok, so we're close. Brake modulation is the ability to accurately and precisely apply varying levels of force to the braking surface.



    So having defined modulation above - your argument doesn't take into account the amount of force applied to the brake lever. For examples sake: let's say a cable actuated brake has a 1:1 pull ratio and the hydro has a 5:1 advantage. You're going to apply less force on the levers with the hydros, which allows you to incrementally feather the brakes much easier than if you're sporting a semi flaccid death grip on a set of rim brakes.

    This is why (hydro) discs are renown for offering superb modulation versus other current brake systems.

    Throwing in brake fade is a mild half-truth that only supports one side of your argument at the very extreme levels of operation - the same heavy amount of braking on a rim brake is going to fry the pads and render a rim brake just as useless.
    right you are, sir. bht you're forgetting that the coefficient of friction between surfaces changes with increasing (or decreasing) the normal force. Thus, braking force doesn't necessarily correlate with lever pull. And as I said in another post, disc brakes work with much higher normal forces.

  23. #48
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    any joy with the installation? What are you looking at doing? Please get this built and post some ride reports.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    You're joking, right?

    Of course they're relevant. The friction within a system is hugely important. Are you not familiar with the concepts or static and kinetic friction? A cable system will have more of both, and it'll affect the modulation of both rim and disc brakes alike.
    Lovely, but that's not what I was responding to.

    smaller movements result in much harder squeeze on the braking surface, and this negates that better modulation.
    This "harder squeeze" is an intra-system force. It has nothing to do with how the brake modulates. If you downsized the pad and changed nothing else, the pad force would be even higher, but the change would be indistinguishable from the lever.

    Look dude, I'm not some clueless idiot with nothing more than a GED to his name. I do know what I'm talking about.
    For someone asking for help, you sure do like to argue.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    right you are, sir. bht you're forgetting that the coefficient of friction between surfaces changes with increasing (or decreasing) the normal force.
    Didn't forget - that's common knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator
    Thus, braking force doesn't necessarily correlate with lever pull. And as I said in another post, disc brakes work with much higher normal forces.
    Under normal operating conditions it basically will. We all know discs require higher forces. Your argument would make sense if disc and rim calipers were in the same location, but they're not - standard rotors (160mm) start around 230mm inbound from where the rim brake track would be.

    In any case, assuming you have the right end caps on your hub, you should take Litespeed up on their offer of a new frame. You're trying slap stuff together to get things to work when everything should work right out of the box.

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