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  1. #1
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    Should I have to try parts combinations to find one that works?

    So, I'm building up a road disc bike and I'm finding that two different rotors don't clear the frame. By measurement, other hubs may offer a fraction of a millimeter more clearance, and so too may other rotors.

    So, is it commonplace to do this when building up bikes with disc brakes? ie trying different hubs and rotors to see which combination will work? Or should frames incorporate enough clearance to allow for variances in hubs and rotors? I would have thought that any 142mm through-axle 6-bolt hub and any 6-bolt 140mm rotor ought to work on any frame requiring those parts.

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    In a word, yes. You have had a few problems with this build from the bottom bracket to the hubs. When there is a pattern it's often not just the tools and parts. Maybe you should just send the frame and parts to Litespeed and let them sort it out? This build may be above your ability or experience level. I know you don't want your LBS touching this frame but think of the time you would have saved by outsourcing the build. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    In a word, yes. You have had a few problems with this build from the bottom bracket to the hubs. When there is a pattern it's often not just the tools and parts. Maybe you should just send the frame and parts to Litespeed and let them sort it out? This build may be above your ability or experience level. I know you don't want your LBS touching this frame but think of the time you would have saved by outsourcing the build. Good luck.

    Now now! That's a very unfair assessment.

    I hardly think the issue I'm having with rotor clearance has anything to do with my skill in building bikes. My LBS wouldn't be any more equipped to predict the problem or deal with it than I would. I've built four mountain bikes with disc brakes and not once have I ever had an issue with clearance.

    As for the bottom bracket, everyone has the occasional issue with installation. It happens.

  4. #4
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    What is the brand of hub?

    There are three possibilities given that you're already using 140mm rotors. Either the hub is really bad, the rotor is not planar, or the frame was welded wrong.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Now now! That's a very unfair assessment.

    I hardly think the issue I'm having with rotor clearance has anything to do with my skill in building bikes. My LBS wouldn't be any more equipped to predict the problem or deal with it than I would. I've built four mountain bikes with disc brakes and not once have I ever had an issue with clearance.

    As for the bottom bracket, everyone has the occasional issue with installation. It happens.
    Perhaps it was harsh but the bike shop typically will test a part to see if it fits before building up wheels, or at least the god ones will. They will also bear the cost of returning parts that don't fit. Did Litespeed check the frame before they shipped it? If not then their stellar reputation for quality which you so stridently and consistently defend is somewhat precarious. Perhaps they didn't apply NASA standards to your frame? I suspect the frame is just fine.

    The tolerances for road bikes Vs MTBs are very different. You can get away with mixing parts a lot more with the latter.This is pretty well documented for example: Road disc brakes: everything you need to know - BikeRadar

    "Compatibility and standards issues

    There’s no gentle way to say this: disc brakes are a nightmare in terms of compatibility with existing rim brake equipment.

    Disc brakes not only require dedicated fittings on the frame and fork for the caliper but, ideally, localized reinforcements to handle the added stresses applied. Meanwhile, the wheels require hubs with either a six-bolt or Shimano Centerlock splined interface to attach a rotor. Neither of these can simply be added on after the fact."


    What is the problem with Shimano hubs for you, especially since you are using the rest of the grouppo? Again the mix and match thing for road disks. Chris Froome does alright with them.

    Not trying to belittle you but sometimes it's better to let professionals do their thing.

    and with that I'll wish you good luck and I do look forward to seeing the final build pics.
    The thread is yours.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Should I have to try parts combinations to find one that works?-tour-de-france-2017-chris-froome-pinarello-dogma-f10-1.jpg  

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    So, is it commonplace to do this when building up bikes with disc brakes? ie trying different hubs and rotors to see which combination will work? Or should frames incorporate enough clearance to allow for variances in hubs and rotors? I would have thought that any 142mm through-axle 6-bolt hub and any 6-bolt 140mm rotor ought to work on any frame requiring those parts.
    I've been following your travails and I'm inclined to believe your problem lies with the frame being built with the 142mm rear end. I believe you said the frame was custom. I'd bet if the frame was built with a 130mm road or 135mm ATB rear end, you would not have a problem. I'll hazard a guess the manufacturer hadn't designed their chainstays to accommodate the various designs.

    To answer your question; FRAME manufacturers SHOULD design their frames for universal compatibility and the industry should set standards, to protect customers. It also benefits the company in terms of wider acceptance by the public when they can choose the parts they prefer.
    Last edited by Peter P.; 10-14-2017 at 05:46 PM.

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    I think you misunderstood what they're talking about when saying "mixing and matching". Yes, hydraulic levers from one brand shouldn't be paired with hydraulic calipers from another brand, etc. Using different rotors, however, is an entirely different thing. It's very doable.

    Second: I'm curious.... are you suggesting that I should have handed my bike frame to the local bike shop and say, "Here you go boys. Build it up nicely for me using whatever parts you see fit!"? Maybe they'd have used the full Shimano Dura-Ace groupset to do it, but that's not what I want.

    Chris King and Industry Nine make bicycle hubs because there are people who want higher quality hubs with quicker engagement. FSA makes cranks and chain rings that do indeed work with Shimano derailleurs and cassette. These companies do sell their products because they make them to meet industry standards. Your contention that "mixing and matching" is causing me problems contradicts the fact that we've been mixing and matching bike parts for decades! I don't think I've ever used a Shimano hub before. But I've used plenty of Chris King hubs that work just fine with my Shimano disc brakes!

    Maybe the tolerances on a road bike are a little more finicky than they are for mountain bikes. Maybe Litespeed designed their bikes to be used only with Shimano centerlock hubs and Freeza disc rotors. But if that were the case, then the frame would become a paperweight when Shimano changes their hubs and disc rotors.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post
    I'm inclined to believe your problem lies with the frame being built with the 142mm rear end. I believe you said the frame was custom. I'd bet if the frame was built with a 130mm road or 135mm ATB rear end, you would not have a problem. I'll hazard a guess the manufacturer hadn't designed their chainstays to accommodate the various designs..
    https://youtu.be/MncE8ni4fbU?t=2m10s It seems they have. Remember these guys are NASA contractors

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    https://youtu.be/MncE8ni4fbU?t=2m10s It seems they have. Remember these guys are NASA contractors
    Remember...NASA contractors caused the Challenger to explode, and similarly caused the Mars Climate Orbiter to crash.

    If the rotor (correctly installed on hub, and correct size for the frame/fork) is rubbing on the frame of a thru-axle frame there are only three causes. Either the rotor is not planar (easily spotted), or the hub geometry is FUBAR, or the frame is FUBAR.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Using different rotors, however, is an entirely different thing. It's very doable.
    No it's not. You prove this and the Shimano installation documentation (have you read it yet ?) I'll let you indicate to me where they show you the instructions for your application. si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RADBR01-00-ENG.pdf Search for the 6 bolt rotor installation instructions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Second: I'm curious.... Maybe they'd have used the full Shimano Dura-Ace groupset to do it, but that's not what I want.
    Don't buy Shimano then. But they did invent the flat mount standard which you also bought. Shimano are notorious at dictating standards. Have been doing it for decades.

    Chris King and Industry Nine make bicycle hubs because there are people who want higher quality hubs with quicker engagement. FSA makes cranks and chain rings that do indeed work with Shimano derailleurs and cassette. These companies do sell their products because they make them to meet industry standards. Your contention that "mixing and matching" is causing me problems contradicts the fact that we've been mixing and matching bike parts for decades!
    Again, your experience supports my conclusion, not yours. Assumptions aren't reality.

    I don't think I've ever used a Shimano hub before. But I've used plenty of Chris King hubs that work just fine with my Shimano disc brakes
    not in a road configuration. Your experience is obsolete in this case. Why didn't you just buy these? https://chrisking.com/products/332 or these https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/...-straightpull/ or these https://industrynine.com/torch-class...enterlock-hubs no problems and a heck of a lot less stress. You'd be riding your bike already. Your lack of experience shows in your contemporary knowledge base. Pro's don't make assumptions like we amateurs do. If they do then they eat the costs. You bought a set of wheels that don't fit your bike, that's your basic amateur mistake. I'm sorry you goofed up but you did. Try and send them back, eat some humble pie and learn about asking questions pre-purchase.

    Maybe the tolerances on a road bike are a little more finicky than they are for mountain bikes. Maybe Litespeed designed their bikes to be used only with Shimano centerlock hubs and Freeza disc rotors. But if that were the case, then the frame would become a paperweight when Shimano changes their hubs and disc rotors.
    like bikes built before taper headsets and disc brakes became the new standard?
    Last edited by kiwisimon; 10-15-2017 at 02:16 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Remember...NASA contractors caused the Challenger to explode, and similarly caused the Mars Climate Orbiter to crash.

    If the rotor (correctly installed on hub, and correct size for the frame/fork) is rubbing on the frame of a thru-axle frame there are only three causes. Either the rotor is not planar (easily spotted), or the hub geometry is FUBAR, or the frame is FUBAR.
    Or Shimano BR-R9170 brake calipers don't support non centerlock hubs. The only FUBAR is the OP's. It's not rubbing on the frame, It's rubbing on the caliper. The calipers have cooling fins on them and maybe that affect their profile. I don't know I don't use Shimano when I can avoid it and I live in Japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    What is the brand of hub?

    There are three possibilities given that you're already using 140mm rotors. Either the hub is really bad, the rotor is not planar, or the frame was welded wrong.
    DT Swiss. Straight pull flange.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    Or Shimano BR-R9170 brake calipers don't support non centerlock hubs. The only FUBAR is the OP's. It's not rubbing on the frame, It's rubbing on the caliper. The calipers have cooling fins on them and maybe that affect their profile. I don't know I don't use Shimano when I can avoid it and I live in Japan.
    That isn't what he said in the OP...

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator
    and I'm finding that two different rotors don't clear the frame.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    Or Shimano BR-R9170 brake calipers don't support non centerlock hubs. The only FUBAR is the OP's. It's not rubbing on the frame, It's rubbing on the caliper. The calipers have cooling fins on them and maybe that affect their profile. I don't know I don't use Shimano when I can avoid it and I live in Japan.
    Incorrect!

    I never said the rotor was rubbing the caliper. I said the rotor is rubbing on the caliper mount - ie the frame!

    I haven't even installed the calipers on the frame.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    DT Swiss. Straight pull flange.
    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Incorrect!

    I never said the rotor was rubbing the caliper. I said the rotor is rubbing on the caliper mount - ie the frame!

    I haven't even installed the calipers on the frame.
    Presuming the rotors are mounted right and are planar.....Litespeed and DT both being reputable companies...email them and ask. The hub you can easily check with a digital caliper to see if it is in specification once you know what numbers to look for. Frame gets very tricky.

    Odds are an RMA is in the future.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    That isn't what he said in the OP...

    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Incorrect!

    I never said the rotor was rubbing the caliper. I said the rotor is rubbing on the caliper mount - ie the frame!

    I haven't even installed the calipers on the frame.
    Sorry, I thought the second set of rotors were hitting the caliper. My Bad. I did raise 6 points and you replied to one.
    Look at how Litespeed spec this disc brake set up.

    Looking at it, the chances of a 6 bolt hub with bolts installed clearing the hardware are going to be very slim. And again, any centerlock hub is going to be fine. The 6 bolt hubs are the problem. BTW, did you read the installation sheet I linked to? thoughts on non centerlock compatibility of the system after having read the documentation? Can't blame the factory for not being able to read your mind. Did you tell them in writing the rear wheel setup and hubs you wanted to use? If not a RMA seems unlikely when all you need do is buy the correct standard.
    Last edited by kiwisimon; 10-15-2017 at 08:42 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    Sorry, I thought the second set of rotors were hitting the caliper. My Bad. I did raise 6 points and you replied to one.
    Look at how Litespeed spec this disc brake set up.
    Looking at it, the chances of a 6 bolt hub with bolts installed clearing the hardware are going to be very slim. And again, any centerlock hub is going to be fine. The 6 bolt hubs are the problem. BTW, did you read the installation sheet I linked to? thoughts on non centerlock compatibility of the system after having read the documentation?

    Centerlock or ISO hubs should make zero difference. The plane of the rotor should end up in the same place.

    If Litespeed managed to actually make an ISO-hub-incompatible-frame....they deserve the 2017 Bicycle Designing Morons Award.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Incorrect!

    I never said the rotor was rubbing the caliper. I said the rotor is rubbing on the caliper mount - ie the frame!

    I haven't even installed the calipers on the frame.
    Take some photos of the rotor hitting the frame.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Centerlock or ISO hubs should make zero difference. The plane of the rotor should end up in the same place.

    If Litespeed managed to actually make an ISO-hub-incompatible-frame....they deserve the 2017 Bicycle Designing Morons Award.
    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    So, here's what's going on...
    The frame uses flat-mount calipers. I'm using the newest Dura-Ace shifter/lever and calipers. My wheels are built with DT Swiss hubs - 12x142 through-axle with 6-bolt rotor mounts. I'm looking to use 140mm rotors.

    I am unable to complete my build because the rotors I have don't clear the frame. I've tried two different 2-piece rotors: Hope floating rotors and Avid Centerline 2-piece. Neither of them clear caliper mount. They both hit the caliper mount, albeit at different places. The Hope's braking surface clears the caliper mount, but its rivets do not (ie the rivets that connect the rotor's parts). The Avid's braking surface doesn't clear the mount at all

    Maybe a centerlock hub would position things more inboard?
    Did you test fit the 140 mm rotors Hopes and Avids? This is what Hope say about their rotors "
    **IMPORTANT NOTICE**Please ensure you have sufficient clearance to use this rotor, pay attention to any possible interference with caliper mount, frame, etc. See diagram in Manuals and Diagrams below" So maybe there are issues besides just your "faulty frame"

  20. #20
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    I can't imagine a 140mm rotor NOT fitting any frame unless there is a giant ****-up on someone's part. It shouldn't matter whether you're using 6 bolt or CL, either rotor should end up in the same spot in space. There should be NO contact w/ the frame and there should be plenty of adjustment in the caliper so the pads don't rub on the rotor. It would be hard to imagine that Litespeed could even build a frame that would that far off given how their fittings and jigs should work. Add to that the (hopefully) multiple levels of QC the frame should pass through, it would be very hard to have a frame leave their production facility w/ this kind of error. Lots of bikes use 142x12 rear wheels, this is nothing new or radical. I'd love to get this bike in my shop to see what's up, but since that isn't going to happen it would be great if you would provide some photos.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    Did you test fit the 140 mm rotors Hopes and Avids? This is what Hope say about their rotors "
    **IMPORTANT NOTICE**Please ensure you have sufficient clearance to use this rotor, pay attention to any possible interference with caliper mount, frame, etc. See diagram in Manuals and Diagrams below" So maybe there are issues besides just your "faulty frame"
    You're really looking for any excuse to attribute the problems I'm having to a lack of knowledge and skill on my part, no matter how ridiculous that excuse may be.

    Of course you need to make sure there is surficient clearance in order to use the rotor. I tried the rotor in and there wasn't enough clearance, so I am not using it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Presuming the rotors are mounted right and are planar.....Litespeed and DT both being reputable companies...email them and ask. The hub you can easily check with a digital caliper to see if it is in specification once you know what numbers to look for. Frame gets very tricky.

    Odds are an RMA is in the future.
    The hub axle measures 141.9mm end to end. The 6-bolt rotor mount is offset from the end of the axle by 17.9mm. Chris King hubs are 18.3-18.5mm. So that might (all in all) account for up to 0.6mm of clearance.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    You're really looking for any excuse to attribute the problems I'm having to a lack of knowledge and skill on my part, no matter how ridiculous that excuse may be.

    Of course you need to make sure there is surficient clearance in order to use the rotor. I tried the rotor in and there wasn't enough clearance, so I am not using it.
    I'm trying to do the same thing I'm just being ever so slightly more sneaky about it.
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  24. #24
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    passing the baton.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    You're really looking for any excuse to attribute the problems I'm having to a lack of knowledge and skill on my part, no matter how ridiculous that excuse may be.

    Of course you need to make sure there is surficient clearance in order to use the rotor. I tried the rotor in and there wasn't enough clearance, so I am not using it.
    you miss the point.

    How about the 6 bolt rotor fitting instructions from Shimano for their top of the line braking system? Still looking for them? Once you step outside of manufacturers recommendations you are opening up a pandora's box.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Honestly? The only company that has consistently designed quality products that are designed well is Shimano.
    Why are you not using the whole Shimano line?
    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Dude, disc brakes don't allow for better modulation. They are worse in this respect. This is common knowledge.

    And it makes sense why. The pad movement for braking occurs over a much smaller distance. A rim brake moves over a millimeter in order to brake. A disc brake moves maybe a half millimeter? It's much harder to 'modulate' the movement of something when the increments you have to move it in order to modulate become so small.
    Why are you using disc brakes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    [I]
    This is why I absolutely despise bike shops, and avoid them like the plague. Their mechanics are uneducated and downright stupid. They know about basic bicycle repair, and nothing more (and even the basic stuff they often get wrong). They are far from being properly trained professionals.
    And you are having so much success. Have at it dude.
    You have a pattern here. You mess something up, you post a help me thread thread or a rant about poor design, you piss off and and don't give feedback on advice or solutions.
    Last edited by kiwisimon; 10-15-2017 at 03:06 PM.

  25. #25
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    Without installing a rotor, you can see that the clearance is pretty minimal. I tried two different rotors just for the sake of being thorough.


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