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  1. #1
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    Tiagra 4700 shifter pull ratio

    I'm trying to understand the best way to use my 10 speed hub wheels with new pull ratio Shimano shifters.
    From published info, the Tiagra 4700 cassettes use the same cog spacing as previous 10 speed units - 2.35 mm. This apparently means all old 10 speed cassettes will work with the 4700 group.
    The guys at Velo News say the new Shimano 11 speed cassettes use closer spacing, 2.18 mm. From what I can see, both 10 and 11 speed systems both use cogs that are 1.6 mm thick.

    Lastly, reports from at least one mechanic says 4700 rear derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800 units. Which makes me wonder...

    Are the 4700 shifters unique, that they pull "more" per click than 5800/6800 shifters?
    But 4700 derailleurs are the same pull ratio as 5800/6800?
    This would seem to make sense, if 4700 and 5800/6800 derailleurs are truly interchangeable. Any one know?

  2. #2
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    The 4700 derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800/9000 and now even 9100. Remember that pull 'ratio' is a two part equation. Just because the derailleurs use the same design lever arm, doesn't mean the shifter does... So the 10sp cassette in use on the 4700 group shares the same spacing as previous 10sp groups because the shifter itself has a pull that complements the derailleur to make it work.
    So a 4700 shifter on said derailleurs will only work with a 10sp cassette, and the 5800/6800/9000/9100 shifters will work with 11sp cassettes even when paired with a 4700 derailleur.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcb78 View Post
    The 4700 derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800/9000 and now even 9100. ... So the 10sp cassette in use on the 4700 group shares the same spacing as previous 10sp groups because the shifter itself has a pull that complements the derailleur to make it work.
    So a 4700 shifter on said derailleurs will only work with a 10sp cassette, and the 5800/6800/9000/9100 shifters will work with 11sp cassettes even when paired with a 4700 derailleur.
    OK, thanks. any comments on the the front derailleur compatibility? Will the 5800 front der work ok with the 4700 left shifter? The crank will be 50/34, 5800 or 6700 (on hand).

    I'm looking to upgrade one or two older bikes and plan to use 4700 shifters, but go with 5800 or 6800 derailleurs. Use existing stock of 10 speed chain, cassettes, wheels.

  4. #4
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    It's 'supposed' to,, if that helps. And for that matter, what I said about the rear is also 'supposed' to work though I have not personally tried it. Shimano officially says no, but I've gotten the ok nod from one of them off the record.

  5. #5
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    10 speed Rear will not work with 11 speed shifter

    Just tried this by accident and used the 10 speed rear will not shift properly with 11 speed cassette and shifters. The stroke is longer and that make the shifting is OK for first 3..4 gears then skips a gear and OK again and skips again.
    In general the cable pull is different on the total system to make this a very bad setup. The 11 speed pull ratio is 2.7mm per gear and 10 speed is 2.3mm per gear.
    Because of the different pull ratio the derailleur also have different ratio (10 speed is 1.8 and 11 speed 1.44). Making all parts not interchangeable.

    Reference Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility

    There are some articles out there that it should work but it will absolutely not work as needed and shifting will be bad. I tested this and it will not work. Do not mix 11 speed and 10 speed rear derailleur. all 7.8.9.10 speed rear have the same pull ration so mix that if you like but never mix 11 with any of the other speed.


    Quote Originally Posted by rcb78 View Post
    It's 'supposed' to,, if that helps. And for that matter, what I said about the rear is also 'supposed' to work though I have not personally tried it. Shimano officially says no, but I've gotten the ok nod from one of them off the record.
    Last edited by kawal; 08-17-2017 at 11:01 AM. Reason: spelling

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kawal View Post
    Just tried this by accident and used the 10 speed rear will not shift properly with 11 speed cassette and shifters. The stroke is longer and that make the shifting is OK for first 3..4 gears then skips a gear and OK again and skips again.
    In general the cable pull is different on the total system to make this a very bad setup. The 11 speed pull ratio is 2.7mm per gear and 10 speed is 2.3mm per gear.
    Because of the different pull ratio the derailleur also have different ratio (10 speed is 1.8 and 11 speed 1.44). Making all parts not interchangeable.

    Reference Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility

    There are some articles out there that it should work but it will absolutely not work as needed and shifting will be bad. I tested this and it will not work. Do not mix 11 speed and 10 speed rear derailleur. all 7.8.9.10 speed rear have the same pull ration so mix that if you like but never mix 11 with any of the other speed.
    You may have mistaken the original question for something else, which is what you tried. You used 11 speed shifters and 10 speed derailleur.

    This thread is about using the NEW long pull Tiagra 4700 10 speed shifters with 5800/6800 11 speed rear derailleurs. This is very different than what you tried.

    The new 4700 10 speed shifter is NOT compatible with the old 5700/6700 10 speed derailleurs, but IS compatible with old 10 speed cassettes and hubs when using 4700 or 5800/6800 derailleurs.

  7. #7
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    So the 4700 10 speed has the same pull ration as the new 11 speed ?

  8. #8
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    For all intents and purposes yes, but that doesn't mean an 11sp shifter will work with a 10sp cassette or vice versa. Just like it used to be where you could mix and match derailleurs as long as the shifters matched the chain and cassette.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kawal View Post
    So the 4700 10 speed has the same pull ration as the new 11 speed ?
    Yes, both rear derailleurs have a ballpark 1.4 ratio.
    I assume in your previous message you used an older Shimano 10 speed rear mech, which has a ratio of 1.7 - which will not work with 11 speed or 4700.

    The 4700 shifters have a pull per shift of about 2.9, which when multiplied by the 1.4 ratio gives the 10 speed cassette cog pitch of 3.95.

    This 3.95 pitch has been the longtime 10 speed cassette standard for both Shimano and SRAM, and has not changed with the new 4700.

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