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  1. #1
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    Want a Simple front derailleur

    I'm so tired of the "trim" on my Shimano 105 5800 11sp FD. Neither me or the LBS has managed to get this thing perfect. Can I just replace it with a different FD that just has a larger cage?

    When I go up into the big 52 ring in front - a lot of times I'm in the larger sprockets in back and trying to shift into that trim position drives me nutty. I just can't understand why someone needs 4 positions on a FD!

  2. #2
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like both you and your bike shop are failing to understand a very simple concept. It's probably more the fault of the shop for not setting it up right and then explaining it to you. The trim positions allow you to use more cogs w/ each chainring by moving the front derailleur a bit to eliminate contact w/ the chain as you shift in the back.
    No...you can't replace it w/ a derailleur w/ a 'larger cage'. You need to have someone that's not an idiot set it up properly, then learn how to use it. Thousands and thousands of cyclists manage this near-impossible task, I'm sure you can as well.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Thousands and thousands of cyclists manage this near-impossible task, I'm sure you can as well.
    Ok I'm going to have to admit that I am an idiot. I'm not a mechanically inclined person.

    "The trim positions allow you to use more cogs w/ each chainring by moving the front derailleur a bit to eliminate contact w/ the chain as you shift in the back." Hard for me to wrap my mind around this - if the cage were 2mm wider - and you didn't have a trim - that would somehow be a bad thing?

    I cannot wait - my new group is going to be 1x. But for now I guess I'll google more on how to adjust it properly.

  4. #4
    ngl
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    I agree with cxwrench. Take your bike to another bike shop. Why spend hundreds of dollars for a 1x (and open up another another bunch of problems) when this is a simple $5 fix.

  5. #5
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcg333 View Post
    Ok I'm going to have to admit that I am an idiot. I'm not a mechanically inclined person.

    "The trim positions allow you to use more cogs w/ each chainring by moving the front derailleur a bit to eliminate contact w/ the chain as you shift in the back." Hard for me to wrap my mind around this - if the cage were 2mm wider - and you didn't have a trim - that would somehow be a bad thing?

    I cannot wait - my new group is going to be 1x. But for now I guess I'll google more on how to adjust it properly.
    The cage could be wider but it won't do any good. It can only move so far w/o throwing the chain off one of the chainrings. There is w/ any system a ratio of cage movement to cage width. If you mess w/ that it won't shift. It won't rub, but it won't shift either. If you wanted to make the cage wider you'd have to make more space between the rings or make the rings thicker...then you'd have to redesign the chain or it would get caught between the rings. Get it?
    How hard is it to understand how 'trimming' a derailleur works? If you're in the smaller cogs you're going to want your derailleur trimmed to the right, if you're in the larger cogs it will be trimmed to the left. There are only 2 chainrings, it's so simple. If it rubs, trim it.

    ETA: It's really the shifter that you're pissed about. The derailleur just does what the shifter tells it you want it to do.
    Last edited by cxwrench; 06-02-2018 at 04:37 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Made me think. I'm always using the trim settings on my 10sp 105 FD, however on my 8sp Chorus bicycle, I never have to touch it beyond shifting from one ring the another.

    Is this because it is only 8 sp or has Campagnolo a better way?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    ETA: It's really the shifter that you're pissed about. The derailleur just does what the shifter tells it you want it to do.
    Ok I think ur correct here. When I'm small ring and I want to shift big ring - I almost always mash the lever all the way and then tap to come back to correct position for big cogs in back.

    To try and finesse the lever just one click - it's just to tiny/sensitive of a move - and it's something I have to consciously think about... so it's easier to go all the way and come back... yes wonder if a good adjustment to the shifter is really what I need.

    Anyway- in then end not that big of a deal - once I get on the right ring it's quiet and smooth... just trying to understand more what's happening.

  8. #8
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcg333 View Post
    Ok I think ur correct here. When I'm small ring and I want to shift big ring - I almost always mash the lever all the way and then tap to come back to correct position for big cogs in back.

    To try and finesse the lever just one click - it's just to tiny/sensitive of a move - and it's something I have to consciously think about... so it's easier to go all the way and come back... yes wonder if a good adjustment to the shifter is really what I need.

    Anyway- in then end not that big of a deal - once I get on the right ring it's quiet and smooth... just trying to understand more what's happening.
    You're already doing it the right way. Shift then trim.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You're already doing it the right way. Shift then trim.
    Ah see this is why I like this forum. Thanks!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    Made me think. I'm always using the trim settings on my 10sp 105 FD, however on my 8sp Chorus bicycle, I never have to touch it beyond shifting from one ring the another.

    Is this because it is only 8 sp or has Campagnolo a better way?
    That could be a factor but needing to trim (more) on one bike vs the other when all else is equal would likely be due to the less trim one having longer chain stays.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like both you and your bike shop are failing to understand a very simple concept. It's probably more the fault of the shop for not setting it up right and then explaining it to you. The trim positions allow you to use more cogs w/ each chainring by moving the front derailleur a bit to eliminate contact w/ the chain as you shift in the back.
    No...you can't replace it w/ a derailleur w/ a 'larger cage'. You need to have someone that's not an idiot set it up properly, then learn how to use it. Thousands and thousands of cyclists manage this near-impossible task, I'm sure you can as well.
    +1

    A derailleur is already a very simple mechanism. About the only way to make it simpler would be to remove it completely and stop your bike to manually move the chain whenever you wanted to shift.

    I've got the same 105 5800 (maybe mine's a 5600, I don't distinctly remember anymore) and the only issues I've had are dropping the chain off the outside under very specific circumstances...but that was fixed with a quick turn of the screwdriver on the limiter adjustment.

    It's worth hitting Google or Youtube, or seeking out instructionals from Parktool.com or other sources. And, +1 on finding another bike shop...with all due respect to them, there's obviously some sort of user error if they can't get a front derailleur adjusted properly. I know I've always had more troubles with the rear, but even that is stupidly simple in the grand scheme of things.
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  12. #12
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    I had a bike that I struggled with the Ultegra 6800 FD. It worked , just not well ( in the same way as the OP describes).

    It turned out that the pull angle for the FD cable coming off of the bottom bracket was wrong.

    With the help of my favorite LBS, we managed to compensate by changing the angle of the cable going into the pinch bolt, which improved the functionality some, but it never worked the way it should (and the way it does on my other bikes).

    Thankfully, those days are behind me, as I've converted all of my bikes to Di2.

  13. #13
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    I had a bike that I struggled with the Ultegra 6800 FD. It worked , just not well ( in the same way as the OP describes).

    It turned out that the pull angle for the FD cable coming off of the bottom bracket was wrong.

    With the help of my favorite LBS, we managed to compensate by changing the angle of the cable going into the pinch bolt, which improved the functionality some, but it never worked the way it should (and the way it does on my other bikes).

    Thankfully, those days are behind me, as I've converted all of my bikes to Di2.
    6800 and 9000 have the 'converter' which can be switched to make up for differences in cable angle. I have seen a few frames that were apparently designed in such a way that you couldn't get the proper angle to the derailleur. This made the shifting much harder than it should be and it's wasn't really possible to get it acceptable in my opinion.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    6800 and 9000 have the 'converter' which can be switched to make up for differences in cable angle. I have seen a few frames that were apparently designed in such a way that you couldn't get the proper angle to the derailleur. This made the shifting much harder than it should be and it's wasn't really possible to get it acceptable in my opinion.
    According to the guys at the LBS where I bought the bike, it was a common problem with this frameset, and other customers complained about it as well.

    You couldn't fully optimize it even using the converter. The symptom was, the initial movement of the derailleur up from the small ring was extremely stiff.. then, once it started moving, it moved really fast. It made it impossible to dial in the trim, especially on the small ring.

    I was really glad to see this design change on the new Ultegra and Dura Ace FD's.

  15. #15
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    Just wear headphones.

  16. #16
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    According to the guys at the LBS where I bought the bike, it was a common problem with this frameset, and other customers complained about it as well.

    You couldn't fully optimize it even using the converter. The symptom was, the initial movement of the derailleur up from the small ring was extremely stiff.. then, once it started moving, it moved really fast. It made it impossible to dial in the trim, especially on the small ring.

    I was really glad to see this design change on the new Ultegra and Dura Ace FD's.
    That's exactly what they do when the cable angle is to small, lots of effort to get the derailleur moving then it just slams over. The new derailleurs are way better for sure.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcg333 View Post
    I'm so tired of the "trim" on my Shimano 105 5800 11sp FD. Neither me or the LBS has managed to get this thing perfect. Can I just replace it with a different FD that just has a larger cage?

    When I go up into the big 52 ring in front - a lot of times I'm in the larger sprockets in back and trying to shift into that trim position drives me nutty. I just can't understand why someone needs 4 positions on a FD!
    Get the new Ultegra 8000 series FD. I'm pretty sure it's compatible with your shifters, and the new cam design is much improved over the old lever arm.

    Trust me. It might be the best $40 you spend on your bike.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    Get the new Ultegra 8000 series FD. I'm pretty sure it's compatible with your shifters, and the new cam design is much improved over the old lever arm.

    Trust me. It might be the best $40 you spend on your bike.
    FD8000 front derailleur is compatible with 6800 front shifter?? Are the 2 groupsets (6800 & 8000) compatible across the board then?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    FD8000 front derailleur is compatible with 6800 front shifter?? Are the 2 groupsets (6800 & 8000) compatible across the board then?
    I don't think you will find it on any compatibility chart. I know for sure Shimano has said that they want you to run the FD8000 with the new R8000 crankset. They don't list them as compatible, but I know for a fact it works, because I've got a bike right here in front of me with an FD8000 on a 6800 crankset and it shifts just fine. I haven't tried it with the 6800 shifters, but I'm fairly confident those will work as well, although I reserve the right to be wrong (it happens far too frequently).

  20. #20
    Schuylkill Trail Bum
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to cxwrench again.

    I always look for the first cxwrench post in a thread like this.

    Thanks, cx, for being RBR's on-call wrench!


    Somebody... rep this dude like your brifters depended on it!


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