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  1. #1
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    Watching the Euro cross race: thoughts on discs

    Seems that they're running out of traction well before they're running out of braking.

    Between that and a new bike every half lap, who needs discs?!

    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by MShaw View Post
    who needs discs?!

    M
    People who want your money. ;)

  3. #3
    Iohannes fac totum
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    Better and consistant modulation equals better traction. Why do they need a new bike every half a lap?


    ...........and it begins.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex View Post
    Better and consistant modulation equals better traction.
    This.

    If you cannot modulate, because canti's require to grab a fistfull of brake, a wheel will lock up sooner. Disc brakes are superior when it comes to modulating. They are in a very early stage of development though. I am not expecting masses of pro's to jump to a heavy and suboptimal cable actuated or 'mixed' system. Some will probably switch to 1st generation full hydraulic solutions and most will switch to the 2nd generation, is what I expect. Stuff will get lighter, both brakes and wheels (carbon rims without the extra construction for the brake track).

    It's only logic they'll switch. But... with a lot of lag time. Pro's took some time to adapt to discs in mountainbike racing too. They tend to stick with what they know what works. A pro will want to be able to get used to something in the season buildup and work with that the entire season. Most need confirmation from the successes of star riders before they switch.

  5. #5
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    if guys who can get them for free (Niels and Sven) choose not to, and they are battling week in and week out for the top of the podium what can we infer?
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie View Post
    if guys who can get them for free (Niels and Sven) choose not to, and they are battling week in and week out for the top of the podium what can we infer?
    That's what I've been thinking as well.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie View Post
    if guys who can get them for free (Niels and Sven) choose not to, and they are battling week in and week out for the top of the podium what can we infer?
    That the skills of the rider are a far greater determinate of performance than discs vs cantis?

    That cantis are still just as good as discs considering the conditions (neither is of much use)?

    That disc brakes on road bikes are another case of "here's the newest, latest, greatest thing, go out and buy it NOW!"
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    That the skills of the rider are a far greater determinate of performance than discs vs cantis?

    That cantis are still just as good as discs considering the conditions (neither is of much use)?

    That disc brakes on road bikes are another case of "here's the newest, latest, greatest thing, go out and buy it NOW!"
    ^^This^^ Again, super fast race today and I never, ever wished I could've stopped/slowed better or much of anything else with my brakes. Still waiting for that to happen (and I've been doing this for about 13 years???)
    Originally Posted by tetter
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  9. #9
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    In truth the whole cant vs disc is a very very complex topic. But what I do know is this:
    Anyone who says one is better than the other is more than likely premature. There are just too many variables including condition, set up, rider style etc for this to be a clear cut slam dunk.
    Some things to keep in mind:

    Cantilevers currently enjoy a weight advantage over discs. This is due in part to the brakes but also to the frame design considerations needed to mount discs.

    Bikes have been designed for years with canti braks and the good ones feel great to ride, it might take some time to include disc brakes into bike design and get as good a feeling bike to ride. Currently extra stiffness has to be built into lower forks.

    Discs open up a nice window towards better and lighter carbon rims that do not need to be built to accommodate a braking surface. Also expensive carbon rims should last longer without being used as a braking surface.

    Discs lower the center of gravity.

    Discs tend to bind up less with less build up on really muddy days - BUT - Good wide profile cantilevers offer good pad to rim clearance, whereas discs have more of a tendency to rub.
    Until discs become more common spare wheels in the pits are easier to come by for cantilever users.

    Also the ability to throw your old road wheels on your cx bike is a nice plus for canti users.

    Just some thoughts.

    Now what we really should be working on is internal geared hubs for CX so we can stop this kind of carnage! Posting link here:

    FPC (Failure to Pass Chain) Deaths - a set on Flickr

    These are all broken derailleurs from one day of cx (today).

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  10. #10
    Iohannes fac totum
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxsnap View Post
    Also the ability to throw your old road wheels on your cx bike is a nice plus for canti users.


    .......says the roadie.

    The mountain biker says, "The ability to run my 29'er wheels on my CX bike is a nice plus."

    (And my 650b wheels........and my 26" wheels........monster CX anyone? )

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    That the skills of the rider are a far greater determinate of performance than discs vs cantis?

    That cantis are still just as good as discs considering the conditions (neither is of much use)?

    That disc brakes on road bikes are another case of "here's the newest, latest, greatest thing, go out and buy it NOW!"
    All of this. I've rarely wished for more braking power in a cross race, but I've often wished for more braking traction.

  12. #12
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    I was watching

    Quote Originally Posted by bikenerd View Post
    All of this. I've rarely wished for more braking power in a cross race, but I've often wished for more braking traction.
    one of the muddier races this year and there was a corner all the guys were intentionally sliding out their back wheels to negotiate. Their bikes were pretty caked every lap but yet they'd lock the rear wheel and toss it out to the right to make this turn. So in those conditions they were able to skid their rear wheel (plus bike changes) so once again braking had exceeded traction to their advantage.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex View Post
    Better and consistant modulation equals better traction. Why do they need a new bike every half a lap?


    ...........and it begins.
    As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, disc brakes provide superior modulation. Not power. No one is saying that the cantis can't lock up a tire or that discs lock it up better. Modulation, or braking traction, is where the disc brakes offer their advantage.
    As for why the top Euro pros are holding out, I think there is little sponsor push right now and they are waiting for their sponsors to provide a top of the line hydro version. These three links were just what I found quickly from Google, because I thought I had read Sven Nys quotes saying he felt that discs are the future but as long as the top end ones aren't available, he feels that he seems to get by just fine with cantis. couldn't find that quote, but still some reading pointing towards the fact that discs are coming to take over.
    Formula Di2 road discs: Good enough for Nys
    Top cyclocross pros still stick-in-the-muds as regards disc brakes
    http://www.cxmagazine.com/eurobike-2...yclocross-bike
    As for why they don't use what they have available now, I think it is because a top CX pro is not going to insert a single prototype bike into their fleet that is not compatible with the rest of the fleet. Like Cannondale/Cyclocross World team, you gotta go all in or all out since mixing and matching doesn't work for reasons like different rear wheel spacing.

    While I didn't follow the sport when discs took over in mountain bike, I have been witness to the Euro scene coming to grips with the 29er "fad." To me the Euro reaction to disc brakes in CX is similar to their reaction to 29er mountain bikes. Euros just didn't buy into it until there were top of the line race-ready versions of them, even though a huge portion of American pros had already been drunk on the Kool Aid for years. Now look at the abundance of Euro pro mountain bikers that are fully committed to 29ers. Similarly, look at the number of full podium sweeps starting to happen in the US elite races (mens, at least) by CX with disc brakes.
    Last edited by ewarnerusa; 11-20-2012 at 05:15 AM. Reason: clarified the last sentences

  14. #14
    Every ride is a race
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex View Post
    .......says the roadie.

    The mountain biker says, "The ability to run my 29'er wheels on my CX bike is a nice plus."

    (And my 650b wheels........and my 26" wheels........monster CX anyone? )
    I'm guessing that statement was pro-discs?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewarnerusa View Post
    As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, disc brakes provide superior modulation. Not power. No one is saying that the cantis can't lock up a tire or that discs lock it up better. Modulation, or braking traction, is where the disc brakes offer their advantage.
    .
    IME brakes are brakes. The only up side to discs is less rim wear and more consistent braking. Power? Meh. You only get as much as your tires will take before skidding. Judging from the slop that the pros were racing thru Sunday, that limit was pretty freaking low

    Modulation? I inherited a disc-only fork for my mtn bike so upgraded to a cable-actuated disc in the front. I have as much modulation with my XTR V-brake in the back as I do with that disc in the front. Its all about the rider. Get ham-fisted with anything and you'll have issues.

    Not saying 'discs are bad, m'kay' but they're not the second coming of Hay-sus.

    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MShaw View Post

    Not saying 'discs are bad, m'kay' but they're not the second coming of Hay-sus.

    M
    First of all, it's spelled "Hey-Zeus."
    Second... well that's all I've got.

    Oh, wait. I don't see where either is gonna make you any better of a rider, but there's a part of me that still wants discs. And a belt drive. But I'm not all there.

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  17. #17
    warrrrrrrgh!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxsnap View Post
    In truth the whole cant vs disc is a very very complex topic. ...
    I disagree...
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  18. #18
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    I've been known to be wrong once or twice. I guess time will indeed tell. (or just call me a Luddite)

    Disc Brakes in Cyclocross…Oh Yes! | theroaddiaries

    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  19. #19
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    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MShaw View Post
    He also didn't mention wheel changes. If you don't have the same hubs on all your wheels, your wheels aren't going to fit into your frame without a caliper adjustment. Same with neutral wheels.

    And with hydros, if you accidental squeeze the brake with the wheel out, your race is over.

    My opinion as a fat, slow, unsuccessful racer, there are a few things that make discs really really great for riding that I am not so sure I would want for racing.
    I hate you all

    j/k lol kthxbye!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    He also didn't mention wheel changes. If you don't have the same hubs on all your wheels, your wheels aren't going to fit into your frame without a caliper adjustment. Same with neutral wheels.

    And with hydros, if you accidental squeeze the brake with the wheel out, your race is over.

    My opinion as a fat, slow, unsuccessful racer, there are a few things that make discs really really great for riding that I am not so sure I would want for racing.
    You must not race MTB's then.
    As a fellow fat, slow and unsuccessful racer I was always nervous about the whole "accidental squeeze" thing, but it hasn't happened yet- even when I'm a nervous nellie before a race. (Hope I didn't just jinx myself!)
    1/2 of my CX race season is in hellish mud and I'd sure like to try out some discs... just not sure if I want to commit yet.

    Agreed on the problems w/ different wheels, and pit wheels, etc..
    Capt Willard: "Every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger."

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    My opinion as a fat, slow, unsuccessful racer, there are a few things that make discs really really great for riding that I am not so sure I would want for racing.
    Maybe that's my issue.

    That and I have 2 bikes, 3 sets of tubulars, and 1 set of clinchers dedicated to cross. Changing all of those hubs out? Uhhh no.


    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    If you don't have the same hubs on all your wheels, your wheels aren't going to fit into your frame without a caliper adjustment.
    That really is not very accurate. I have 4 sets of race wheels for my disc CX bike, 3 carbon tubulars with Novatec hubs and one set of Enve Twenty9 XC tubulars with DT Swiss 240 hubs. While it took a little bit of trial and error aided by a torx bit and a Dewalt cordless drill, I simply had to determine which wheel set had the widest hub/rotors and used that wheelset as the baseline (Enve w/DT Swiss) for the calipers and then used disc rotor shims to make the other rotors line up, thus no need for caliper/pad adjustments for a wheel change.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ms6073 View Post
    That really is not very accurate. I have 4 sets of race wheels for my disc CX bike, 3 carbon tubulars with Novatec hubs and one set of Enve Twenty9 XC tubulars with DT Swiss 240 hubs. While it took a little bit of trial and error aided by a torx bit and a Dewalt cordless drill, I simply had to determine which wheel set had the widest hub/rotors and used that wheelset as the baseline (Enve w/DT Swiss) for the calipers and then used disc rotor shims to make the other rotors line up, thus no need for caliper/pad adjustments for a wheel change.
    Ghetto solution =/= a good solution.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    Ghetto solution =/= a good solution.
    How is that ghetto? It's analytical and quantitative and seems like a great solution to hub width variation. That's like saying using spacers to adjust the SS cog position for chain alignment is ghetto.
    Ghetto, to me, is a description for mods that involve gorilla tape and things like that.
    Last edited by ewarnerusa; 11-20-2012 at 06:54 AM.

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