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  1. #1
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    could lance have done it without the dope?

    ok, before you guys hang me. im new.yes i knew a "little' about him during his "wins" success etc. but i never followed cycling at all really.

    so my question is. arguably, do you think he could have won all of them or any of the tdf without the drugs?

    just from an outsiders perspective i think maybe? im just thinking that the level is so elite, that roids will not make a good cyclist great enough to win the tour....

    im not defending him, just wondering.

  2. #2
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    No, highly doubt it. I read somewhere where he stated that when he made his return, everyone was so much faster. We all know that the whole pelaton basically was doping. Now if everyone was clean, it could be possible.

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    i used to joke at work that he had a carbon fiber nut with some kind of steroid mix that released when he squeezed it...... maybe? lol

    also, i guess deep down thats why i never hated on him to bad after getting exposed. after learning how many and how bad the dope game is in cycling at that level....

  4. #4
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    could lance have done it without the dope?

    No chance. Before cancer he never finished a tour.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireform View Post
    No chance. Before cancer he never finished a tour.
    ^^ this.

    Some people respond better to dope, blood transfusions, etc... Individual sensitivity and all that. Armstrong isn't / wasn't a "great cyclist" - he was just "great" at responding to dope.
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  6. #6
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    He ushered in the era of focusing only on The Tour. He spent the season pre-riding key mountain stages (no one did this at the time) and his team was drilled to perfection with only one goal " keep him safe"! On a level field( no one doping) I believe he put in the training time, effort and attention to detail to win most if not all of them. If he had not doped and the others did (as has been proven) I don't think he could have beat them clean.
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  7. #7
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    could lance have done it without the dope?

    That's what he would have you believe.
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  8. #8
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    imho. when there is that much money at stake i believe these companys/riders will keep finding new ways to "cheat" . new dope, etc. etc.

    by money, im talking about product sales. there is no way lance did it un provoked. his marketing power was bar none the best in the world. nike, trek etc. etc. whether you were buying because of him, or subliminaly because you kept seeing the stuff plastered everywhere you go. im not closed minded enough to think that some of the huge corps. (nike, trek etc) dont have "unofficial" employees that might help/bribe/aid the process along. now thats just me and my conspiracy theories.... lol. but we are talking about mega, mega money here.....

  9. #9
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    With the rest of the Peloton on "Jet Fuel" ... not a chance, he wouldn't have even been a good domestique.

    With a level playing field where nobody was doping (one can dream) ... it's really, really hard to say. Given that people respond differently to doping, he could have benefited more or less than others. However, I think there was a lot more to his victories than doping (total anal preparation and dedication to winning the Tour, route knowledge and pre-riding, food prep, control of every aspect of team preparation leading up to the Tour, etc.).

    He was never a clean rider and nobody he competed against was ever really clean ... so saying he was a crappy Tour rider before Cancer is pretty much meaningless because he was doping before cancer as well ... self admitted.

    The reality is we will never know ... so why dwell on it? What we do know is he beat all the other dopers, regardless of what the books now say and in the end that's all that counts
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcharrette View Post
    He ushered in the era of focusing only on The Tour. He spent the season pre-riding key mountain stages (no one did this at the time) and his team was drilled to perfection with only one goal " keep him safe"! On a level field( no one doping) I believe he put in the training time, effort and attention to detail to win most if not all of them. If he had not doped and the others did (as has been proven) I don't think he could have beat them clean.
    ......and because he was focussed on teh tour and not doing many other races he could dope till the cows came home without ever being tested. doping allows he to train harder and more often.

  11. #11
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    well put wookie..... didnt they try to give one of his wins to the next guy down and he busted for dope also? or something like that?

    i also agree with you. its a lot more than dope. its not the magic solution to instantly make you a great rider/racer tour winner. its insane when you think about it, how much those guys train and commit their lives to it and still have to have the dope edge to win.......

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wookiebiker View Post
    With the rest of the Peloton on "Jet Fuel" ... not a chance, he wouldn't have even been a good domestique.


    The reality is we will never know ... so why dwell on it? What we do know is he beat all the other dopers, regardless of what the books now say and in the end that's all that counts

    One thing you have to realise about dopers, they are realists, not fantasists. Like all cheats, they have enough self-awareness to know that they will NEVER be the best, that they will NEVER be good enough.
    Once that point is reached it simply is a matter of reconciling yourself to the fact that if you want to pursue your dreams, satisfy your ego, and claim that which you know will never rightfully be yours, you will have to CHEAT.
    I don't think Lance wasted too much time pondering 'what if's'. He got on with the job of winning BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY. He was professional, goddammit he was the best cheat there ever was. Now whether you think that's something worth defending is entirely up to you and your morality. I certainly don't hate Lance for doing what he did to win. He wasn't the first, he won't be the last. But where I get off the train is with the lies, intimidation and legal moves he used on people with the smarts to see through the facade. Now that he's busted he has to live with the fact that ultimately he accomplished NOTHING.

    Edit: Lance answered the question himself early on in the Oprah interview with a categorical 'no'. One of the few statements he made that wasn't BS.
    Last edited by sir duke; 05-10-2013 at 07:42 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Not chance in hell he ever wins a GT clean even if everyone else is clean.

  14. #14
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    Of course he could not have won dope free. Why do you think he doped? At least he made enough money to pay the lawyers for the 'race' indoors.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcharrette View Post
    He ushered in the era of focusing only on The Tour. He spent the season pre-riding key mountain stages (no one did this at the time) and his team was drilled to perfection with only one goal " keep him safe"! On a level field( no one doping) I believe he put in the training time, effort and attention to detail to win most if not all of them. If he had not doped and the others did (as has been proven) I don't think he could have beat them clean.
    I agree. Lance did a number of things different in how he approached the tour that give him and edge. He he not doped and run against dopers he probably would not have won. However in fully clean field? I would believe he had shot, but we will never know.
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  16. #16
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    I'm with those who believe that dope doesn't automatically turn any also-ran into a winner. You have to be superb already. The dope just gives you a slightly better chance of putting yourself on the podium. In other words, I think Lance Armstrong was already a world-class rider. Yes, the dope might have contributed to his remarkable TdF win streak, but if it were only the dope that did it, hell, me and creakyknees could've been TdF champs, too!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.rod View Post
    well put wookie..... didnt they try to give one of his wins to the next guy down and he busted for dope also? or something like that?

    i also agree with you. its a lot more than dope. its not the magic solution to instantly make you a great rider/racer tour winner. its insane when you think about it, how much those guys train and commit their lives to it and still have to have the dope edge to win.......
    The only "justice" was that they didn't hand his GT win to another rider. Almost everyone in the top 10 had been caught at one point or another or were under strong suspicion.

    They gave Jan's '05 3rd to Mancebo, who was also a doper who got busted.

    Quite a mess. I'm under the opinion that destroying Lance is a simple distraction since doping continues.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir duke View Post
    One thing you have to realise about dopers, they are realists, not fantasists. Like all cheats, they have enough self-awareness to know that they will NEVER be the best, that they will NEVER be good enough.
    Once that point is reached it simply is a matter of reconciling yourself to the fact that if you want to pursue your dreams, satisfy your ego, and claim that which you know will never rightfully be yours, you will have to CHEAT.
    I don't think Lance wasted too much time pondering 'what if's'. He got on with the job of winning BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY. He was professional, goddammit he was the best cheat there ever was. Now whether you think that's something worth defending is entirely up to you and your morality. I certainly don't hate Lance for doing what he did to win. He wasn't the first, he won't be the last. But where I get off the train is with the lies, intimidation and legal moves he used on people with the smarts to see through the facade. Now that he's busted he has to live with the fact that ultimately he accomplished NOTHING.
    He did beat cancer.

    Of course he used drugs for that too so it doesn't really count. But who can beat cancer clean?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    He did beat cancer.

    Of course he used drugs for that too so it doesn't really count. But who can beat cancer clean?

    Not only did he use drugs to beat cancer, he bullied cancer.

  20. #20
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    A real hero could beat cancer without drugs or being a bully.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    He did beat cancer.

    Of course he used drugs for that too so it doesn't really count. But who can beat cancer clean?
    Yes he did. He obviously wanted it enough. Cancer only kills those too lazy and lacking motivation to fight it. Jeez.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wookiebiker View Post
    .... With a level playing field where nobody was doping (one can dream) ... it's really, really hard to say.
    Professional cyclist without dope?!?! Would they also not have bicycles... maybe just run the races on foot? Bicycle racing... grown men racing bicycles for a living... is entertainment sport. The cycling game was played... as it was played. Drugs has always been a part of bicycle racing.

    Whatever you think of the sport or Lance.... he is one of the sports greatest champions. And a drug using cheater.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Whatever you think of the sport or Lance.... he is one of the sports greatest champions. And a drug using cheater.
    ^^This. Cutter cuts to the chase...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    ^^This. Cutter cuts to the chase...
    IOW a 'champion cheat'...if we really wanna cut the crap.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir duke View Post
    IOW a 'champion cheat'...if we really wanna cut the crap.
    Careful lest your boy get caught or blamed for doing the same. We are to assume that only LeMond, Hampsten, and Evans were the only clean GT winners for the last 30 some years.

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