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  1. #1
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    Double Standard?

    Okay just curious. When people see Sagan kick ass the "he must be doping" threads start. While he obviously did dope, back during the "Magnificent Seven" days many did not want to hear "Armstrong never tested positive" they said he doped....

    Marianne Vos however wins in Road, Cross, Track and MTB racing. This week she wins with Euro to West Coast USA Jet lag to boot. Where are the same accusations?
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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  2. #2
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    No one cares?

  3. #3
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    One of my friends posted something on facebook claiming that Merckx was the greatest. Another asked, "What about Marianne Vos?"

    I scanned the thread and could see that a debate ensued, with talk of comparing apples to oranges, women's sports not getting the support, women's equality, and on and on. I stopped reading because when it comes to women's cycling:
    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    No one cares

  4. #4
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    Vos must be doping, because she's faster than me. (Everyone faster than me MUST be doping)
    Just ride.

  5. #5
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    Re: Double Standard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    No one cares?
    Very misogynistic of you.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #6
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    I think Slartibartfast kinda hit it on the head ... the simple fact is very few people care about women's cycling (or any women's sport aside from maybe tennis).

    For some reason though, people tend to give female athletes the benefit of the doubt when it comes to using PED's ... when the reality is, there is just as much reason to use them there as in men's sports, though the money tends to be much less most of the time.

    I read several cycling sites ... and see here win, pretty much anything she enters ... and often have the thought she is doped to the gills, but I don't post about it because ... honestly, I don't really care.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    Very misogynistic of you.
    As wookie said, most people don't care. How many WNBA games do you watch?

    I thought only Sagan was misogynistic these days.

  8. #8
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    Re: Double Standard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wookiebiker View Post
    I think Slartibartfast kinda hit it on the head ... the simple fact is very few people care about women's cycling (or any women's sport aside from maybe tennis).

    For some reason though, people tend to give female athletes the benefit of the doubt when it comes to using PED's ... when the reality is, there is just as much reason to use them there as in men's sports, though the money tends to be much less most of the time.

    I read several cycling sites ... and see here win, pretty much anything she enters ... and often have the thought she is doped to the gills, but I don't post about it because ... honestly, I don't really care.
    Well from a sporting perspective women's sports should be even more under the radar. There was zero testing back in the day and they point to this as one of the sources of the now seemingly unbreakable women world record times.

    I guess what I should say is "if the people on this forum and elsewhere actually care about clean sports...care to learn about both. If not GTFO." The reason being that if you don't care you essentially create a professional sport that is also a free real world testing ground for PEDs.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    I guess what I should say is "if the people on this forum and elsewhere actually care about clean sports...care to learn about both. If not GTFO." The reason being that if you don't care you essentially create a professional sport that is also a free real world testing ground for PEDs.
    Well ... that's the problem.

    The reality is most people seem to care about Lance doping, not others doping ... hence the reason most doping threads end up being a Lance bashing session.

    People state they want clean sports, but when you really look at it (not just cycling) ... people don't want it, they just want the appearance of it. They want to see grand performances, they want to be entertained by people doing unimaginable things. As long as it "Appears" to be clean or their favorite athletes are not turning positives, they are good with it.

    Again ... when it comes to women's sports ... very few care if they are doping or not. For that matter, very few even know when/where they are racing/playing and you would be lucky to find somebody that can actually name a female athlete outside of tennis, golf or soccer.
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  10. #10
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    I have seen people ask if she's clean. I think there is a whole Vos thread over on the clinic.

    The doping forum here has gotten pretty quiet post 'Oprah Confession.' Lots of interest in Lance, much less interest in other things doping.

    I do think doping is a bit harder for women.
    1) too many steroids turns you into a she male and messes up your health (see Tammy Thompson).
    2) there is less money in women's cycling, so it's harder to afford / justify a program.

    But I'm sure women's cyclists dope. I wouldn't be shocked to discover that various to women did. But I couldn't tell you for certain which ones do.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will only drag you down to his level and beat you on experience." (Twain)

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    Great. Jock sniffing is now foreign policy analysis. Awesome.

  11. #11
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    Re: Double Standard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
    I have seen people ask if she's clean. I think there is a whole Vos thread over on the clinic.

    The doping forum here has gotten pretty quiet post 'Oprah Confession.' Lots of interest in Lance, much less interest in other things doping.

    I do think doping is a bit harder for women.
    1) too many steroids turns you into a she male and messes up your health (see Tammy Thompson).
    2) there is less money in women's cycling, so it's harder to afford / justify a program.

    But I'm sure women's cyclists dope. I wouldn't be shocked to discover that various to women did. But I couldn't tell you for certain which ones do.
    Kinda to address you and Wookie together I think you point something out, albeit perhaps indirectly/unintentionally that I have said for sometime. At least in the US doping in cycling was almost Universally focused on LA. Hell the stuff regarding Landis and Hamilton seemed to be focused on "see they doped so LA had to dope to." A system based on such animosity rather than emotionless logic and properly articulated evidence is doomed.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    A system based on such animosity rather than emotionless logic and properly articulated evidence is doomed.
    See, nobody cares about other American cyclists, at least not much. Just like we don't care about the women. We care about Lance because he won big, and we care about the big Euro-names because they're big winners too, in the afterglow of Lance's Tours: Contador, Gilbert, Sagan, Basso, the Schlecks, etc. Landis, Hamilton... maybe we used to care... same with Hincapie, Leipheimer, VDV. Oh, and we care about LeMond. As for the rest, we Americans just don't care very much. At least that's the cynical viewpoint... Well, actually it's my own viewpoint.

  13. #13
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    I'm surprised no one has brought up the queen of all doping: France's Jeannie Longo.


    Ditched three out-of-competition drug tests and her coach/husband gets busted with EPO claiming it was for his own use. What happens to her? Nothing.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cda 455 View Post
    I'm surprised no one has brought up the queen of all doping: France's Jeannie Longo.


    Ditched three out-of-competition drug tests and her coach/husband gets busted with EPO claiming it was for his own use. What happens to her? Nothing.
    Yeah, but she wasn't mean like Lance, so it's ok.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    Kinda to address you and Wookie together I think you point something out, albeit perhaps indirectly/unintentionally that I have said for sometime. At least in the US doping in cycling was almost Universally focused on LA. Hell the stuff regarding Landis and Hamilton seemed to be focused on "see they doped so LA had to dope to." A system based on such animosity rather than emotionless logic and properly articulated evidence is doomed.


    It appears you've just described pro cycling in general.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by spade2you View Post
    Yeah, but she wasn't mean like Lance, so it's ok.

    Ah; Good point.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cda 455 View Post
    I'm surprised no one has brought up the queen of all doping: France's Jeannie Longo.


    Ditched three out-of-competition drug tests and her coach/husband gets busted with EPO claiming it was for his own use. What happens to her? Nothing.
    Well, I guess the authorities don't even care about the women. It's a pity, because they're very compelling from a sporting standpoint. Just no as compelling as the dudes.

  18. #18
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    Re: Double Standard?

    Quote Originally Posted by spade2you View Post
    Yeah, but she wasn't mean like Lance, so it's ok.
    And this has so much to do with many things. Landis? People were more than ready to cut his throat because he was, to an extent following in Lance's mind set. He was brash, and oh "so American". Tyler though people cut more slack. He was nice, all smiles, Tug boat died. It wasn't until the whole "chimera" absorbed twin, sci-fi BS that people finally almost had to say "wtf?"

    How many people are looking to question Indurain? If anyone benefited from EPO it would be him, even more so than LA, when you look at their performance. As much as people try to pooh pooh LA's relationship with Ferrari, Indurain was a "pupil" of Conconi, the "proto-Ferrari." But Indurain is a nice, mild manner, quite smiler.

    If anything I think the last decade has told me the following about doping in Pro-Sport.

    1. get licensed in a country where sports doping is not a crime (those wire taps can be pesky).
    2. be nice, smile for the cameras, say little or nothing of any substance.
    3. if a teammate gets popped, when his ban is over if he is looking for a job, give him one.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

  19. #19
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    I'm more annoyed with the soap opera than the actual doping. To be blunt, honest, and offend as many people as possible, I don't trust Lance or anyone who went against him. I've dealt with enough shady people in my life to be able to sense that I'm surrounded. Hell, my boss lied to us last week with a straight face without hesitation. I smelled it from a mile away. Everyone who went against Lance gave me that vibe. Revenge or something to gain, nothing more.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by spade2you View Post
    I'm more annoyed with the soap opera than the actual doping. To be blunt, honest, and offend as many people as possible, I don't trust Lance or anyone who went against him. I've dealt with enough shady people in my life to be able to sense that I'm surrounded. Hell, my boss lied to us last week with a straight face without hesitation. I smelled it from a mile away. Everyone who went against Lance gave me that vibe. Revenge or something to gain, nothing more.

    Um; And Pharmstrong is not shady ?
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cda 455 View Post
    Um; And Pharmstrong is not shady ?
    Reread my post. I don't trust any of them. I could go into reasons but I have better things to do than arguing with a bunch of ad hominem.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by spade2you View Post
    I'm more annoyed with the soap opera than the actual doping. To be blunt, honest, and offend as many people as possible, I don't trust Lance or anyone who went against him. I've dealt with enough shady people in my life to be able to sense that I'm surrounded. Hell, my boss lied to us last week with a straight face without hesitation. I smelled it from a mile away. Everyone who went against Lance gave me that vibe. Revenge or something to gain, nothing more.
    Quote Originally Posted by spade2you View Post
    Reread my post. I don't trust any of them. I could go into reasons but I have better things to do than arguing with a bunch of ad hominem.
    You said you didn't trust him.


    You didn't describe him as shady like you did the others. That's why I asked.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    Very misogynistic of you.
    So you must be watching all the big women's races then?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cda 455 View Post
    Jeannie Longo
    Bingo, biggest doper ever.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinelli 82220 View Post
    So you must be watching all the big women's races then?

    Whoa; There are races involving big women ?!!


    Like an amazon cat. race or something ?!
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