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  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    But this should not devolve into a gladiator sport.

    Most medications have legitimate uses. I am not for the complete elimination of medical treatments just to prove the sport is "clean". No professional sport is clean, and the ones that believe they are haven't been hit with a doping scandal- yet. Dog mushing, badminton, and any number of other sports you wouldn't expect have been hit already. People are always looking for an edge.

    People also are imperfect machines. We break. I would rather not have riders hiding a minor condition (say a saddle sore) during a Grand Tour that could potentially become more serious, for fear they would be pulled as no effective medical treatment would be permitted. If there is a legitimate medical need, I'm all for it as long as the person making the call is making it for health rather than performance purposes. Chronic conditions would require a greater degree of proof for said treatment.
    I see your point but I don’t agree. Mainly because it’s about fractional degrees. I don’t see death rides becoming common because you can’t use meds. As of now, you lose a noticeable amount of riders in a grand tour to bronchitis and diarrhea. They are refular occurrences. Saddle sore? What changes? You want them to have novicaine or anelgisics? That’s more dangerous than being forced to retire due to the pain. By lots. Antibiotic? Irrelevant. Once that sore (sometimes mistakenly called a wound for effect) is opened up ABs aren’t making the sore rideable. If it’s bad enough to require AB you get off the saddle and retire. It can make the sport safer, not more dangerous. And, in regard to “other spots,” cycling has a uniquely damaged image when it comes to doping. There can be no legitimate argument about that. The general public equate drugs with the sport more than any other aspect. That’s horrific. I’m well aware of doping in other sports, hell, in shooting events people abuse anxiolytics and one of the medalists was retro sanctioned in the last summer games in Trap Shooting. So, is the better option to form a players union and organize to restrict drug testing? Again, that’s real. And again, other sports aren’t viewed as biochemistry experiments by the general public. Cycling has a very real and very serious problem. The “great sensation” just got proven a cheater and doper. The perception that there is no great win, no great effort, no great climb, no great day, no great strategy, without complete skepticism is absolutely right. If my suggestion seems extreme, it is actually measured in regard to the extent of the problem. Froome is far more damaging than it appears on the surface. Cycling is the WWF. If it wants to return to being a sport it needs to do dramatic things in response to dramatic conditions.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  2. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoroninK View Post
    Movistar probably does the best with their budget, although in truth how much of that is because of how versatile Valverde is along with how many races he does per year.
    I agree Movistar does well with its budget (I'd argue Sunweb does better), somehow funding Landa, Quintana, and Valverde, plus all of the riders required to effectively support them. It would be interesting to see how their budget is divided among the various areas, because none of those riders come cheap. With Contador gone, they're the only ones interested in truly animating a race anymore. Most everyone else sits in Sky's draft and waits for them to crash or get sick.
    Quote Originally Posted by KoroninK View Post
    You put a cap on the budget close to the average or maybe a little higher Sky, BMC and Katusha are really the only teams that would be drastically reducing budget. Depending on the amount you may have 3 to 5 teams needing to slightly reduce their budgets.
    Getting clear numbers on budgets can be difficult, but Sky's rider payroll is bigger than a few teams' entire budgets. That's a huge disparity. Then you add in support structures and the chasm only widens.

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    If it wants to return to being a sport it needs to do dramatic things in response to dramatic conditions.
    That ship has sailed, and it isn't coming back. The perception is firmly entrenched, and as the Russians have taught us, even the most complex anti-doping measures can be circumvented.

  4. #279
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    True, Sunweb and Quickstep as well do well with their budgets. Movistar is a very young team going into this season. They have a handful of riders who are 30 or older and many of their domestiques have left. So they are going to be relying on a lot of youngsters this year. Yeah, Sky's rider budget is that of two maybe 3 teams combined. The UCI really should do something to put in some cost controls. I also think TV revenue should be shared with teams, however, I get that small races may not really get much in the way of TV revenue and what they do get may be a factor in what is keeping that race going as well.

  5. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    That ship has sailed, and it isn't coming back. The perception is firmly entrenched, and as the Russians have taught us, even the most complex anti-doping measures can be circumvented.
    That is certInly a fair point. Sad, but fair. Well said.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  6. #281
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    [QUOTE=coldash;5202964]Full story on Chris Froome returns adverse analytical finding for Salbutamol | Cyclingnews.com here

    I’ll wait until the facts are established but it raises the whole TUE issue (for everyone) again[/Any news yet?

    Does anyone know if you failed one post-race exam or several? i would think if Froome was caught on only one stage over the course of 21 stages; that smells like an irregularity. If it was consistently, after the first fail, then there is no way Froome is clean.
    ]

  7. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by richdiaz
    I’ll wait until the facts are established but it raises the whole TUE issue (for everyone) again[/Any news yet?

    Does anyone know if you failed one post-race exam or several? i would think if Froome was caught on only one stage over the course of 21 stages; that smells like an irregularity. If it was consistently, after the first fail, then there is no way Froome is clean.
    fact is already established, Froome failed the test. And it doesn't matter if he's failing 1 stage or 21 stages. A fail is a fail.

    But here's the gray area. Salbutamol is a "specified substance" and not a "banned substance". If it was a banned substance, Frome failed and not be given a chance to explain himself. But because it's a specified substance, he was allowed to use it to a certain limit, and apparently be given a chance to explain himself if he crossed over that limit, which he did in this case, by 2x over limit. And now it's up to Sky and their lawyers and no-doubt their hired scientists to explain how such a thing can be possible.

    Many opinions have already been given about TUEs and specified substance. I question both usage in the pro peloton, and the reason is because for every endurance sport, the total performance really depends on all components working together: the heart, the lungs, the blood, physiology, the muscles, the anatomy. If the argument is that a person with a particular lung issue (asthma) is allowed to take a drug to perform well under extreme exercise, then why can't a person with "low T" be allowed to use "T therapy"? Slippery slope.

    but like I said, society should not discriminate asthma suffer when they want to play sport at amateur levels. But at the extreme level, the pro ranks, then your "natural" lungs (no chemical assistance) has to be regarded as a part of the natural system that determines your overall performance. In my view, if you can't perform as well without a certain drug, then that drug has to be viewed as "performance enhancing". Furthermore, I would go further to argue that if you need to take "antibiotic" during a stage race (because you suffer from a respiratory infection), then you should be forced to drop out of the race. Yes, extreme endurance racing does compromise the immune system, and if your body can't cope without antibiotic, then you don't get to race at that point.
    Last edited by aclinjury; 1 Week Ago at 11:39 PM.

  8. #283
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    Don't expect any facts.

    Don't expect any information at all really, not even the judgement.

    Ulissi’s Salbutamol ruling was kept secretÂ*—Â*Froome’s might be too | VeloNews.com

    Don’t hold your breath to see how Chris Froome’s Salbutamol case plays out.

    Efforts to parse documents for a comparison between the two cases have proven frustrating. Why? Because the Ulissi documents were never released.

    No one in the public ever read those documents, however. Swiss Anti-Doping authorities confirmed to VeloNews that the agency does not publicly release documents involving disciplinary actions. A request to view the Ulissi documents was denied.


    And just like Ulissi’s ruling, details surrounding Froome’s case might never be publicly revealed.
    use a torque wrench

  9. #284
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    Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

  10. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
    YES!!!! I understand the draw to protect the data and rider to some extent and to announce only a disposition. It is a reasoned argument. But cycling can’t handle that. Maybe that ship has sailed... But I’d love to see the sport try to take itself seriously. Given the history and damage already done, sunshine would be the only option for getting through this with any shred of integrity left intact.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  11. #286
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    "My gut tells me something else was going on."

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/comp...cation-claims/
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  12. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    From your link:

    on days it's under control, she is rarely outside the podium positions. On days when it's not, she can hardly pedal the bike.
    Which is what we would expect to see in somebody who is having such a bad day they have to double their dosage. My daughter was on a swim team who had one lady who had exercise induced asthma and when she had a bad day, she could barely swim and had to quit early. Froome, as we see in the interview after the stage, was in perfect health.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  13. #288
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    Did anybody link the interview?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkBT13_ELCM

    Anyone who thinks he's having a bad breathing day based on that interview is out of their mind.
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  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    From your link:



    Which is what we would expect to see in somebody who is having such a bad day they have to double their dosage. My daughter was on a swim team who had one lady who had exercise induced asthma and when she had a bad day, she could barely swim and had to quit early. Froome, as we see in the interview after the stage, was in perfect health.
    Exactly....
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  15. #290
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    To play devil's (Froome's) advocate, there is a wide spectrum of responses to asthma. What's a "bad day" for Froome may be a "good day" for Compton, even with his super-special physiology. You'd have to A-B their lung function to know for sure, and that isn't going to happen.

    The intense compact and intense efforts of a cyclocross race are nothing like your average ProTour race, much less the repeated and sustained beating a Grand Tour provides. 'Cross is brutal in its own, unique way, but it's another animal.

    But yeah, she pretty much nailed it. Take the sanction, Froome, You're not doing anyone any good by dragging it out.

  16. #291
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    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  17. #292
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    Good article that raises much of what is being discussed here:

    Lefevere on Chris Froome case: If cycling wants to be credible, things have to be clearer | Cyclingnews.com

    Apologies if this was already posted. On my iPad I sometimes lose comments that get added into the middle of a thread. It just says “ more replies below this” and they vanish.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  18. #293
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    Pro cycling needs to sanction Froomie like other cyclists have been in the past. No Vuelta title for 2017 and 2 years off the race bike to deal with his 'asthma issue'.

  19. #294
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    Agree .. but “like “ others will be 9-12 months only
    PO is a liberal echo chamber.

  20. #295
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    I wonder if others know something we don't:

    The director of the Vuelta has gone public stating he wants this case decided quickly.
    Chris Froome's case is 'a heavy blow' says Vuelta a Espana director Guillen | Cyclingnews.com

    The director of the Tour has gone public stating he wants this case decided quickly.
    Prudhomme wants Froome situation resolved quickly | Cyclingnews.com

    The director of the Giro has gone public stating he wants this case decided quickly.
    Giro d'Italia director calls on UCI to 'sort out' Chris Froome's salbutamol case | Cyclingnews.com

    Contador has gone public saying a quick decision is best.
    Alberto Contador: A fast decision on Chris Froome case would be for the best | Cyclingnews.com

    And then Bardet says clearly what the others aren't.
    Bardet: I don't see how Chris Froome can race as if nothing is going on | Cyclingnews.com

    All signs seem to be pointing to this dragging out and Froome racing the Giro and the Tour while this is in court.

    It appears Froome planned on dragging this out to ride the Giro and Tour all along and just hoped it wouldn't go public. And after it did go public they seem to have decided to go for it anyway.

    Wouldn't that be something if he raced this year... Everyone in the know says he's going to do it and nobody wants it to happen.
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  21. #296
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    Malfunctioning kidneys

    Chris Froome’s legal defence in his salbutamol case will be based on an argument that his kidneys temporarily stopped working properly prior to his adverse analytical finding.

    The claim will be that they then returned to proper function, releasing the substance into his urine and thus triggering the positive test.
    Froome’s expert team have ruled out using dehydration or external factors as the reason for him having double the permitted maximum level of salbutamol in his system. Instead, they are set to suggest that his kidneys temporarily stopped working properly and accumulated high levels of salbutamol.


    Froome is hoping to try to win both the Giro d’Italia and the Tour de France this season.

    He has confirmed his attendance at the Italian event despite knowing that the salbutamol case is brewing.

    Um... Kidney failure? Temporary kidney function stoppage? The guy in that interview video on that day?

    The UCI has lined up its own kidney specialist to deal with the claim.
    Oh really? Like the Sky News doctor asthma specialist guy that said the limit and rule was meaningless? That kind of specialist?

    Were the UCI LADS to accept this, WADA or UKADA could appeal to the CAS.
    use a torque wrench

  22. #297
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    Froome is FOS.. no respect at all.. he’s worse than Lance.. strip all his titles
    PO is a liberal echo chamber.

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    Um... Kidney failure? Temporary kidney function stoppage? The guy in that interview video on that day?



    Oh really? Like the Sky News doctor asthma specialist guy that said the limit and rule was meaningless? That kind of specialist?
    Yea...they realize what morons they'll look like if 2 2nd 6x+ Grand Tour winner this millenium is DQ'd for doping...
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  24. #299
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    At this point, I kinda feel for Froome.

    Very few (if any) riders are standing up for him, even on his own team. He took what could have been an off-season ban and the loss of a GT title and turned it into a potential multi-GT impacting fiasco. The potential damage to his reputation, the sport, and the existence of his own team because of this bad decision? Incalculable. The moment where he could have stood up, took the hit, and maybe made it look like cycling had turned a corner is long gone. Now all that's left is to try to blame his vanishing twin for taking extra hits off the puffer or some such nonsense.

    I'm sure ASO is carefully examining its options, and others will follow their lead.

  25. #300
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    Liar liar, his kidneys were on fire?

    I hope to see some giant inflatable inhalers if he races

    Froome in trouble-l2976-01.jpg
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