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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post
    The presenter said that since Salbutamol has become an allowed substance (2013?) there have been 100 instances of riders testing over the limit.
    Is it possible for a number to sound more like the kind of number someone bropes out their butt than to say "100 instances?" Not 98, not 105, but 100. Okay...
    Quote Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post
    We've only heard of 3 that I'm aware of. Why? Because per the rules, this all stays private until the rider proves his case or doesn't - as in case of Ulissi, etc. If they are proven "valid", which, apparently 97% have been we never hear about it. Unless of course someone leaks it.

    Does any of this absolve Froome? Of course not. However, it does make me slightly more sympathetic to the approach they're taking. While I hesitate to call Froome a "victim" here, it could be that he is a victim of the rules not being applied as they would to other riders in the same situation.
    Of course, there's an as-yet unknowable matter of degrees, here. Even if we accept the fact that 95+% of adverse results are excused, maybe it's because they only glowed a few nanos over the limit, so whatever song-and-dance alibis were given were accepted- and only violations of c. Ulissi-magnitude resulted in serious sanctions. [And to review, Froome's hit doubled up on the allowable maximum.]

    These are the obstacles we all face when we're only allowed to see a near-minimum of the available data concerning this.
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  2. #402
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    “Froome and his team are putting one over on us. The act of riding the Ruta del Sol is an act of self-importance, because they absolutely don't care about the disastrous image that they are presenting of cycling.”

    Guimard: Team Sky don't care about the disastrous image they are presenting of cycling | Cyclingnews.com
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I think its inspiring that athletes with debilitating asthma and COPD can somehow rise to the highest level of professional sport
    Don't check in too often...

    I did, locally anyway. Competed at CAT 1 and 2 throughout most of the late 80's, and up to 1998.

    I had severe asthma until I was around 18, when I 'made it go away', by an even more severe lifestyle change. I kept it up for about 15 years, until my body wore down, basically from being on a bike 3-4 hours a day. Every day.

    TL;DR You can compete with real asthma. I had several brands of rescue inhalers, (albuterol, salbuterol, alupent, epinephrine, theolair, tedral, etc.) over the years. I never used them even once "proactively" They were for emergencies. Real emergencies.

    That said... having these in your system after a race, simply means they were taken prior. Can that mean an advantage? If you actually have asthma, prolly no. It's just bringing you up to the playing field. If you don't have asthma, then maybe. Now you're amping up.

    I'd seriously doubt that the amounts founds in Froome's system were beneficial for advantage. Who knows. In my day...we (I) took a lot of 'cures' and remedies that are banned today. Not judging, but the whole " I've asthma, so that's why I've got XXX in my system is suspect.

    Anyway, great discussion and apologies if I resurrected a Zombie Thread.

  4. #404
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    I've raced against several people with asthma. Some are worse off than others, so it's obviously across a spectrum. One day they're in the mix, and the next conditions conspire to throw them out of contention. What I've seen is very much like what Katie Compton experiences. Then again, I probably don't see the guys who have a milder variant that can manage the extreme swings more effectively.

    Team Sky's reactionary response to TUEs for GT riders probably caused this, as Fabio Bartalucci mentioned. Instead of pursuing a TUE for a specified dose of a more effective asthma drug, they just pushed the amounts of the specified substance until their boy blew twice the permitted limit. Instead of being open and honest about this, their culture of managerial arrogance is proving to be their downfall.

    It really could have been a much simpler matter if handled differently.

  5. #405
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    Froome in trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    I've raced against several people with asthma. Some are worse off than others, so it's obviously across a spectrum. One day they're in the mix, and the next conditions conspire to throw them out of contention. What I've seen is very much like what Katie Compton experiences. Then again, I probably don't see the guys who have a milder variant that can manage the extreme swings more effectively.

    Team Sky's reactionary response to TUEs for GT riders probably caused this, as Fabio Bartalucci mentioned. Instead of pursuing a TUE for a specified dose of a more effective asthma drug, they just pushed the amounts of the specified substance until their boy blew twice the permitted limit. Instead of being open and honest about this, their culture of managerial arrogance is proving to be their downfall.

    It really could have been a much simpler matter if handled differently.
    Or, Froome was short of breath once, ever, and they want him to use PEDs? It very well could be that simple. They got approved for PEDs and doubled the allowable dosage.




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    Last edited by PBL450; 02-12-2018 at 05:13 PM.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  6. #406
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    Oops, someone forgot to pay off Bartalucci....

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...nd-grey-areas/
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    He said they used IV recovery while it was still legal.

    "It was a simple 'recup' programme, far less than other teams probably did. It included vitamins, antioxidants and iron when needed. Not all the riders wanted it but it was going to be available. Of course, when the no-needle ban was announced, the IV recovery plan was dropped."

    What else? Is there a Jiffy Bag?

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    nothing surprising about the article. Sky, a scientific team, with 2 medical record systems, suddenly has a paucity in their medical records and a laptop gone missing. But only thanks to the Russians are we able to know about this bs today. Wiggin was quite good at wiggling his way thru the system until the Russians caught him.

  9. #409
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    Well, it looks like they're all in. Froome is now playing superdomestique with the outside chance at a win. He's definitely a man being watched by the other GC contenders, which means that even if he isn't the chosen one, he has an out-sized influence on the race.

    Froome's comments show he's entrenched in the Sky spin bubble. "The press is making a big thing about nothing..." and that sort of thing. Really? A GT winner popped at twice the permitted limit for a specified substance is nothing? Interesting. The "fake news" defense has expanded to cycling, it appears.

    I don't envy the position Froome finds himself in with the press at the moment, but it's one his choices led him to. So far the fans and the press have been relatively restrained, which I'm somewhat surprised by. If Froome thinks it's going to get any better the closer the Giro gets, he may have another thing coming. Hopefully the UCI's Anti-Doping Tribunal moves quickly and cleanly so the result can be kicked to CAS for a resolution by the end of the decade.

  10. #410
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    Froome is saying that the peloton welcomes him back. However, Tim Wellen, says differently, saying more like 9 out of 10 guys don't want to see Froome racing. I will go with Wellen's word, because I haven't seen one Tour rider defend Froome at this point.

  11. #411
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    I wouldn't want to race against Froome either.

    I can imagine a GC guy saying, "I wish they would let him race - it would legitimize the event" if for sure Froome were banned.

  12. #412
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    It sounds like Wiggins has some really strong opinions about this and Team Sky as well:

    Wiggins doesn't want his team following Sky's lead | VeloNews.com
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    It sounds like Wiggins has some really strong opinions about this and Team Sky as well:

    Wiggins doesn't want his team following Sky's lead | VeloNews.com
    but first Wiggo has to come clean himself. Nevertheless, his message has the right tone.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    It sounds like Wiggins has some really strong opinions about this and Team Sky as well:

    Wiggins doesn't want his team following Sky's lead | VeloNews.com
    Thats a great article, thanks! As a Wiggins fan struggling to resolve how I feel about his former team, it’s tough, and this puts him in the kind of light I’d hope for. As for him coming clean, I don’t know... there’s a lot going on there. Warming up to Froome however, is just impossible to me.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Thats a great article, thanks! As a Wiggins fan struggling to resolve how I feel about his former team, it’s tough, and this puts him in the kind of light I’d hope for. As for him coming clean, I don’t know... there’s a lot going on there. Warming up to Froome however, is just impossible to me.
    It's funny, because I've always favored Froome over Wiggins. What some people always interpreted as Wiggins' "refreshing candor" I always took as him being a jerk. I really didn't start to warm to him at all until after Sky started dumping on him. True, Froome was a rider who could win multiple Tours instead of just one perfectly suited for his characteristics, but Sky horribly mismanaged that whole situation. Thomas is a talent, but I'm not sure he's close to the level of Froome or even Porte and Landa- which makes me wonder after Froome... then what?

    That Wiggins doesn't want his riders sucked into the Sky meat grinder is understandable. Better to spend a couple years on a French team or Drapac getting your teeth kicked in and riding more or less clean. At least have a few years of a career where you can look back and be proud.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    It's funny, because I've always favored Froome over Wiggins. What some people always interpreted as Wiggins' "refreshing candor" I always took as him being a jerk. I really didn't start to warm to him at all until after Sky started dumping on him. True, Froome was a rider who could win multiple Tours instead of just one perfectly suited for his characteristics, but Sky horribly mismanaged that whole situation. Thomas is a talent, but I'm not sure he's close to the level of Froome or even Porte and Landa- which makes me wonder after Froome... then what?

    That Wiggins doesn't want his riders sucked into the Sky meat grinder is understandable. Better to spend a couple years on a French team or Drapac getting your teeth kicked in and riding more or less clean. At least have a few years of a career where you can look back and be proud.
    Oh, I never saw it as jerkey, I saw it as awkward. He’s a very uncomfortable rider in the media spotlight. He was weird about Froome and the leadership “issue.” But I think he’s just weird. How versatile is he? Really, he’s nearly 6’ 3” and won Le Tour at 157. That’s a big guy. He track races at like 174. As a tour winner he’s an odd duck. Sky is so shady. I’d think he has a big azz bag of mixed feelings about his former team and former team mates.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  17. #417
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    Nice article on Wiggins and what he's trying to do. I actually have never been a fan of either Wiggins or Froome. However, I do appreciate what Wiggins is trying to do with his team and I hope he succeeds. We need more teams to develop talent. I certainly don't blame him for trying to steer the kids away from Sky.

  18. #418
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    Wasn't Contador stripped of his 2010 TDF win for a single positive one test that detected a drug chemically similar or a cousin to Froome's drug?

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    That Wiggins doesn't want his riders sucked into the Sky meat grinder is understandable.
    Hopefully Wiggins’ action will match his words. Quite often, they don’t
    Last edited by coldash; 02-24-2018 at 01:03 AM.

  20. #420
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    Not that we need more, but here's another take on Froome's defense:
    albertnet: Biased Commentary - Could Chris Froome Be Innocent?

    My question is this- if the UCI finds against him pre-Giro/Tour and he decides to appeal, does he still get to race while waiting for CAS to decide the case?

  21. #421
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    Is there any precedent for that?

  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalGuy View Post
    Wasn't Contador stripped of his 2010 TDF win for a single positive one test that detected a drug chemically similar or a cousin to Froome's drug?
    Clenbuterol. Not even close.

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  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoroninK View Post
    Is there any precedent for that?
    Not that I know of, but at this point anything is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommybike View Post
    Clenbuterol. Not even close.
    Yes and no. Taken by certain methods they have similar effects- mainly they are used in an attempt to build lean muscle. Competitive body builders use them a lot.

    However, Clenbuterol is a banned substance (in the context of cycling) in any amount, while Salbuterol is a specified substance with certain permissible limits (when taken by inhaler). The levels exhibited by Froome indicate a non-approved method of Salbuterol use.

    So, how did he (and Contador before him) pass so many drug tests before they got popped? The jaded side of me says they infused blood bags taken while they were in a "cutting" phase, and they didn't expect the elevated levels to remain in detectable levels.

    Of course, it could have been liver failure or tainted Spanish beef...

  24. #424
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    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  25. #425
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    that is a nothing burger.. old news maybe even fuax news... rehashed/retread.

    Still say old Froomie is going down.. but that headline is old.
    PO is a liberal echo chamber.

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