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  1. #1
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    At least one of the old school riders has it right.

    In that for this problem to be fixed we can not stop at the EPO generation....

    How far back should any T&R process go? Well if you want to learn where the culture of cheating began, you would need to call up Adam and Eve. Perhaps the evidence and experiences of the last 50 years ought to be enough to get a grasp of how the cycling culture and Omerta has been building.

    I don't see how we are going to understand and begin to deal with the unhealthy problems cycling has cultivated over many decades unless you ask those who have been part of that history what they saw, heard and did. And that doesn't mean asking only riders, team managers, soigneurs, mechanics, race organisers and officials. Doctors, supporters, fans and journalists need to be included too.
    Truth And Reconciliation Or Trial And Retribution? | Cyclingnews.com

    But according to some of the people on this forum...I guess Robert is an apologist too /facepalm.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    In that for this problem to be fixed we can not stop at the EPO generation....



    Truth And Reconciliation Or Trial And Retribution? | Cyclingnews.com

    But according to some of the people on this forum...I guess Robert is an apologist too /facepalm.
    You misunderstand.

    Truth and reconciliation doesn't change their attitude. If you can't change the attitude, get them out of the sport.

    See: Riccardo Ricco.
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  3. #3
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    I wouldn't exactly call Millar old school. He's not part of the wool jersey crowd.

    T&R can change people's attitudes, through fear of punishment. Some People come forward because they don't want to be implicated by someone else and left out of the amnesty. Then they stay clean because of the punishment (let's say get caught again after getting amnesty = 8 year ban).

    And if riders give information that gets dirty Doctors and coaches out of the sport, that's good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
    I wouldn't exactly call Millar old school. He's not part of the wool jersey crowd.

    T&R can change people's attitudes, through fear of punishment. Some People come forward because they don't want to be implicated by someone else and left out of the amnesty. Then they stay clean because of the punishment (let's say get caught again after getting amnesty = 8 year ban).

    And if riders give information that gets dirty Doctors and coaches out of the sport, that's good.
    They don't fear multi-year bans as it is. Why would they fear it now?

    It's an ongoing problem with cycling and every sport out there. Athletes just don't fear the ban process because they're (almost) always back shortly thereafter. The news that WADA is going to increase the ban for first time offenders to 4 years is music to my ears. It should go to 8 years or life on first offense. If you're going to cheat, you're not welcome in the sport, or at least that's how it should be.

    If you want to start rolling DSs and docs, perhaps the best way is to offer T&R on existing riders/licenses and no tolerance on all new licenses. Encourage the old to eat their own and keep the young from ever starting down that road.

    And by T&R we're not talking the 6 month offseason ban: there needs to be some kind of penalty for their actions unless they can assist in rolling someone. 6 months would be fine for a guy like Bruyneel or (gasp) LA. If you just come out and say "I doped" but can't offer much help, you don't get a 6 month ban...maybe a year and repayment of all winnings/salary. Katusha had it right with the "busted, pay 2x your salary back."
    Last edited by robdamanii; 02-08-2013 at 03:14 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Katusha has it right. Haha, good joke, Katusha.

    I think you're wrong. Since multi-year bans aren't making people talk, why not try the opposite. Full amnesty for any rider who discloses EVERYTHING they know, including doctors, assistants, coaches, DSs. No full amnesty for doctors, coaches, or staff, only the riders, including LA. That ought to get mouths talking.
    I'm keen to believe that with the volume of information coming out of everyone on every team, it would be fairly easy to see who actually isn't saying everything they know, and then bust THEM with some sort of ultra-severe punition. i.e. 8 year ban and repayment of all earned winnings or something.

    Morally this may be questionable with regards to the riders themselves, but it would clean the system surrounding them. Then you introduce "THE rule," that anyone linked to doping can't participate in team support, and you've done a lot of good work.

    I think a lifetime ban on first offense is too much. There needs to be leeway for bad judgment calls, young and stupid riders, and the like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moskowe View Post
    Katusha has it right. Haha, good joke, Katusha.

    I think you're wrong. Since multi-year bans aren't making people talk, why not try the opposite. Full amnesty for any rider who discloses EVERYTHING they know, including doctors, assistants, coaches, DSs. No full amnesty for doctors, coaches, or staff, only the riders, including LA. That ought to get mouths talking.
    I'm keen to believe that with the volume of information coming out of everyone on every team, it would be fairly easy to see who actually isn't saying everything they know, and then bust THEM with some sort of ultra-severe punition. i.e. 8 year ban and repayment of all earned winnings or something.

    Morally this may be questionable with regards to the riders themselves, but it would clean the system surrounding them. Then you introduce "THE rule," that anyone linked to doping can't participate in team support, and you've done a lot of good work.

    I think a lifetime ban on first offense is too much. There needs to be leeway for bad judgment calls, young and stupid riders, and the like.
    Bad judgement and young and stupid do not apply to other crimes. Why should it apply to doping?

    I see no good coming from giving all these riders a complete pass. Sure, you get rid of the current generation of doctors, but you've introduced the idea that "All I have to do is rat out a bunch of people and I can get away with any doping I've done." Do we go through this process every 10 years when new doctors and dope have permeated the peloton? I disagree with that path. The way you get out of this situation is to purge the system and start over.

    I fully believe that there WON'T be huge amounts of information coming out about docs, programs, etc. There's no incentive for it: the chances of being caught now are poor at best so why come forward with the truth? Popped? Banned. Period. If you have the information that can bring down a ring, other riders, DS whatever, make reductions in bans at the sole discretion of the WADA on a case by case basis. Forbid those busted from participating on the management or ownership side of things in the future in ANY circumstance if they're busted.

    It's not just the DSs and doctors doing this. You can't excuse the murderer and convict the mastermind, just like you can't absolve the riders while convicting the DS.
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    Re: At least one of the old school riders has it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    You misunderstand.

    Truth and reconciliation doesn't change their attitude. If you can't change the attitude, get them out of the sport.

    See: Riccardo Ricco.
    I think you miss an important point. WE do not live in a black and white world. Attitudes often do not change so long as the negative attitudes can remain in the shadows. Fear and peer pressure also can hinder the changing of attitudes. Truth and Reconciliation shine light on people mitigate the fear and open the door so peer pressure works in the opposite direction.

    Of course after this there will still be those trying to hide in the shadows...and fff them.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    I think you miss an important point. WE do not live in a black and white world. Attitudes often do not change so long as the negative attitudes can remain in the shadows. Fear and peer pressure also can hinder the changing of attitudes. Truth and Reconciliation shine light on people mitigate the fear and open the door so peer pressure works in the opposite direction.

    Of course after this there will still be those trying to hide in the shadows...and fff them.
    So what do you propose to do with those who "take advantage" of T&R? Slap them on the wrist?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    So what do you propose to do with those who "take advantage" of T&R? Slap them on the wrist?
    The point of a T & R is that, for the most part, there is not even a slap on the wrist. Essentially you say "okay, so long as everyone submits something for the panel between date A and B and testifies truthfully and IN FULL, you have qualified immunity." I used the term qualified immunity because if you leave stuff out, lie etc., and that comes out later in the process, what you testified to can and will be used against you in an ADA proceeding.

    Also I would want them to add that if you get nailed for doping again, this confession during the T &R can be considered a previous offenses, which would lead to either an 8 year or life time ban if you get caught doping after the T & R period closes.

    I also said "for the most part" because you would look at it like an organized crime case. You give immunity to the soldiers but not the Don's. So if Fabian Cancellara comes forward and admits to participating in an organized doping program run by Riis at CSC he gets a pass. However if Riis as the Don came forward with a confession of running such a program the best he could hope for would be the 8 year ban that you can get for major/repeat offenses (which in essence would end his career anyway) though likely such a confession would result in a lifetime ban. The 8 year is just the best case scenario for a Riis in those circumstances.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

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    That.
    And to continue the analogy with regular crime, you don't give every minor dope dealer a death penalty or a life sentence. It's only through repetition of said crime that the sentence will increase.

    A sure way to seal the use of omerta is first time life-ban sentences. No one will say anything.

  11. #11
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    Re: At least one of the old school riders has it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by moskowe View Post
    That.
    And to continue the analogy with regular crime, you don't give every minor dope dealer a death penalty or a life sentence. It's only through repetition of said crime that the sentence will increase.

    A sure way to seal the use of omerta is first time life-ban sentences. No one will say anything.
    Pretty much this. People think "make penalties harsher and it will stop it." NOT in closed communities and not when the % that get caught is so small. When you combine these two things all you end up doing is make the closed community go into full lock down and then you get even fewer bad guys.

    You see similar dynamics regarding criminal law in immigrant communities.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    The point of a T & R is that, for the most part, there is not even a slap on the wrist. Essentially you say "okay, so long as everyone submits something for the panel between date A and B and testifies truthfully and IN FULL, you have qualified immunity." I used the term qualified immunity because if you leave stuff out, lie etc., and that comes out later in the process, what you testified to can and will be used against you in an ADA proceeding.

    Also I would want them to add that if you get nailed for doping again, this confession during the T &R can be considered a previous offenses, which would lead to either an 8 year or life time ban if you get caught doping after the T & R period closes.

    I also said "for the most part" because you would look at it like an organized crime case. You give immunity to the soldiers but not the Don's. So if Fabian Cancellara comes forward and admits to participating in an organized doping program run by Riis at CSC he gets a pass. However if Riis as the Don came forward with a confession of running such a program the best he could hope for would be the 8 year ban that you can get for major/repeat offenses (which in essence would end his career anyway) though likely such a confession would result in a lifetime ban. The 8 year is just the best case scenario for a Riis in those circumstances.
    I could get behind that.

    The issue I have is that most of those "reconciled" riders will continue to dope, and the testing is so poor that they likely won't be caught. Sort of like the mentality of a guy who confesses his sins and then goes and picks up a hooker to cheat on his wife with.

    As I see it, the only way to get the doping culture out of the sport is to remove those who adhere to that culture. If that means starting the whole peloton fresh, so be it.
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  13. #13
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    Re: At least one of the old school riders has it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by robdamanii View Post
    I could get behind that.

    The issue I have is that most of those "reconciled" riders will continue to dope, and the testing is so poor that they likely won't be caught. Sort of like the mentality of a guy who confesses his sins and then goes and picks up a hooker to cheat on his wife with.

    As I see it, the only way to get the doping culture out of the sport is to remove those who adhere to that culture. If that means starting the whole peloton fresh, so be it.
    The problem is, like you said, the testing is so bad that there is no way within the regime to even dream of a new peloton. So while that is a great idea in theory it is completely unworkable in practice.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

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