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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldash View Post
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    aclinjury has displayed complete ignorance of pro-cycling and the TdF. He doesnít even understand that team busses canít get to the top of some mountain top finishes. He is without credibility

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    Coldash was the first to post about Froomeís AAF and highlight that Froome was in trouble. Coldash also wanted Dumoulin to win the TdF and said so on this very forum. Both of these qualify as ďSky and Froome jockerĒ in the strange place that is aclinjury land
    lol welp.... thanks for the friday laugh! honestly you put a smile on face. Good day sir.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldash View Post
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    aclinjury has displayed complete ignorance of pro-cycling and the TdF. He doesnít even understand that team busses canít get to the top of some mountain top finishes. He is without credibility

    Hint:
    Coldash was the first to post about Froomeís AAF and highlight that Froome was in trouble. Coldash also wanted Dumoulin to win the TdF and said so on this very forum. Both of these qualify as ďSky and Froome jockerĒ in the strange place that is aclinjury land
    What in all hell is a jocker? Is this a term from a faraway land Iíve never heard? Itís been used a few times, perhaps only by acl, but I might be wrong.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    My observation is that the African distance runners don't complain about "exercise induced asthma" nearly as much as the other endurance athletes in cycling, triathlon, and swimming. Yes, there are a boatload of tri athletes saying they have asthma, ever seen the startline of a tri/ironman event? it's littered with inhalers.

    My theory is that:
    1. your typical African runner is poor and cannot afford products such as inhalers or other marginal PED product that may not have a significant effect given the money paid. Your typical white male cyclist or tri or swimmer can probably hound his mom/dad for the money.
    2. Runners in general cannot train as much hours as cyclists or tri guys or swimmers. This is due to the physical stress on the body due to running. So the limited training hours may help runners to avoid exercised induced asthma. Cyclists can train hours on end on the road, sucking in allergen and smog pollution.

    But in my view, if you're having exercise induced asthma, it should be seen as your body's limitation and should not be assisted by drug. Without such drugs, you're not able to train and perform as well, so then such drugs are in effect performance enhancers. Period.
    Thereís so much fiction in here I donít know where to begin. Pro African runners, almost all pro runners in fact are sponsored so the fact that they come from impoverished nations often has nothing to do with the medical services they have access to as a pro. My point is really this (and you kind of missed it), when was the last time you saw some marathon or other endurance running event result called into question because of suspected doping or a TUE? How about with Ironman or ITU? When was the last time you saw the biggest names in marathon or triathlon being openly considered cheats? You can try to spin it however you want, but pro cycling clearly has a problem, something strange is definitely going on at Sky with the use of restricted medications and TUEs, and the sport just punched itself in the face a few times by letting a multi-time TdF champ walk away scott free after getting busted with double the legal limit of a restricted medication in his system during a race he won when it had previously banned other riders for having much less of the same drug in their system in races they did not win. Thatís not happening in other endurance sports is my point because they are doing a better job of policing their own at all levels.

    https://www.usada.org/lisa-roberts-a...ing-violation/
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    I hear ya, I just have a hard time buying it when I don't see similar occurrences in other grueling endurance sports.
    Iím far From knowledgeable enough but Iíd think itís some combination of a few things. 1. How much time do runners, swimmers or tri folk spend at altitude and/or in the cold? 2. How often do they train/race day after day after day? 3. They have fewer fans, and they havenít had Lance Armstrong... so itís quiet, easily hidden sans mass scandal, or outfight suppressed but as widespread as cycling.

    Iminclined to think its rampant.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  5. #105
    ngl
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    Now I understand why you are so confused. There doesn't need to be a number that is consistent with PED. There just needs to be a number (which we have) that establishes a therapeutic dosing range for an actual medical diagnosis. By default, anything above that is pointless.
    Why don't you read my post before you start typing. I said "Manufacturer nor WADA never published any specific number that would be consistent with PED use of the substance because there isn't one." This is one of the reasons they have the AAF program.

    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    By default, if you used more than the medically therapeutic dose, you are cheating.
    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    Doesn't have to correlate. You just don't need to use more than the acceptable prescription dose.
    Again read my post before typing. WADA (not me) has already determined that WADA cannot accurately determine the "acceptable prescription dose" taken by the person by analyzing urine samples. Please notice I said "accurately".

    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    So worthless that scientific peers read the research (in sports medicine journals) and thought that the research was valuable enough to publish. So, I'll take their word over yours. You're just an engineer.
    Wrong again. I didn't say their literature was worthless, I stated "The literature you gave is worthless to the topic we are discussing."

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    Thereís so much fiction in here I donít know where to begin. Pro African runners, almost all pro runners in fact are sponsored so the fact that they come from impoverished nations often has nothing to do with the medical services they have access to as a pro. My point is really this (and you kind of missed it), when was the last time you saw some marathon or other endurance running event result called into question because of suspected doping or a TUE? How about with Ironman or ITU? When was the last time you saw the biggest names in marathon or triathlon being openly considered cheats? You can try to spin it however you want, but pro cycling clearly has a problem, something strange is definitely going on at Sky with the use of restricted medications and TUEs, and the sport just punched itself in the face a few times by letting a multi-time TdF champ walk away scott free after getting busted with double the legal limit of a restricted medication in his system during a race he won when it had previously banned other riders for having much less of the same drug in their system in races they did not win. Thatís not happening in other endurance sports is my point because they are doing a better job of policing their own at all levels.

    https://www.usada.org/lisa-roberts-a...ing-violation/
    What part do you consider fiction?

    Not all pro marathoners are elite with sponsors. You probably don't know this, but there are many poor "contract runners" from East Africa, hired by European coaches, to run smaller less well known marathons, and the prize money would be split between the coaches and athletes. It is a money making business model. These runners don't have the glamorous sponsors like the top elite ones. If you think that almost all pro runners are sponsored, then you don't know the business very well, and you're just watching the top elite ones.

    And for a time, Ethiopian runners were called "EPO-thians".

    As for tri, well it's even more of a fringe sport than cycling is. Nobody really cares about tri, so nobody makes a big stink about it. But like I said, ever seen the start line of a tri event? it's litter with inhalers, yet nobody question anything about it because ultimately nobody cares about who wins or loses in a tri event. Do you even know the top 3 tri athletes? I certainly don't and don't care.

  7. #107
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    Why don't you read my post before you start typing. I said "Manufacturer nor WADA never published any specific number that would be consistent with PED use of the substance because there isn't one." This is one of the reasons they have the AAF program.
    I did read your post. I'm trying to educate you on the fact that a manufacturer is in the business of selling their product for the treatment of a disease. Why would they spend money to determine a dose (and thus a blood or urine concentration) that correlates with performance enhancement? You're being ridiculous to think they would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on something so meaningless to their bottom line. Thus, the reason that any concentration above the normal upper limit should be banned. It means you took too much (on purpose or by accident).

    Not to mention that nobody has define the term you keep holding them to...performance enhancement. Which is why I asked for your definition. You keep saying that nobody has a number that correlates to performance enhancement. We would have to know that definition before we could find a correlative blood or urine concentration. That's not even getting into the pharmacodynamics of the topic.



    Again read my post before typing. WADA (not me) has already determined that WADA cannot accurately determine the "acceptable prescription dose" taken by the person by analyzing urine samples. Please notice I said "accurately".
    Again. I addressed this before.



    Wrong again. I didn't say their literature was worthless, I stated "The literature you gave is worthless to the topic we are discussing."
    Explain how the literature I gave is worthless. It applies to the topic at hand. Maybe you can't interpret it in the context of this conversation, but it still applies to the topic.

  8. #108
    ngl
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    I did read your post. I'm trying to educate you on the fact that a manufacturer is in the business of selling their product for the treatment of a disease. Why would they spend money to determine a dose (and thus a blood or urine concentration) that correlates with performance enhancement? You're being ridiculous to think they would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on something so meaningless to their bottom line. Thus, the reason that any concentration above the normal upper limit should be banned. It means you took too much (on purpose or by accident).

    Not to mention that nobody has define the term you keep holding them to...performance enhancement. Which is why I asked for your definition. You keep saying that nobody has a number that correlates to performance enhancement. We would have to know that definition before we could find a correlative blood or urine concentration. That's not even getting into the pharmacodynamics of the topic.





    Again. I addressed this before.





    Explain how the literature I gave is worthless. It applies to the topic at hand. Maybe you can't interpret it in the context of this conversation, but it still applies to the topic.
    I don't know why you still ask me questions when you don't believe anything I say.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...salbutamol-cut

    https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/ne...stopher-froome
    Last edited by ngl; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:22 AM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngl View Post
    I don't know why you still ask me questions when you don't believe anything I say.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...salbutamol-cut

    https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/ne...stopher-froome


    These links support my point. Thanks. I think we are finally on the same page!

  10. #110
    ngl
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    These links support my point. Thanks. I think we are finally on the same page!
    Well, I'm glad this old confused and naive engineer could bail you out and finally put a smile on your face because it wasn't looking too good for you earlier. But hey, that's what engineers do. And look at the brighter side. Froome won his Salbutamol case and SKY put TWO on the podium this year. Wow, I can't wait for next year's TdF!
    Last edited by ngl; 2 Weeks Ago at 03:21 PM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post

    But like I said, ever seen the start line of a tri event? it's litter with inhalers, yet nobody question anything about it ....
    Acl, you brought up an excellent point. I am in my late 30's. I remember during gym time/recess while in elementary school, my classmates who have asthma woud constantly use their inhalers... If Froome did have "asthma", I sure didn't see him use it on the tour.

    I'll be honest, I don't have asthma. But is there medication where it's a one time use and can last an entire 100+ mile stage race? If you ask me, I would expect Froome to be using it constantly. Because you know, cycling is a strenuous sport that require every single drop of oxygen... riding up mountains is taxing on your body and lungs...

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugenetsang View Post
    Acl, you brought up an excellent point. I am in my late 30's. I remember during gym time/recess while in elementary school, my classmates who have asthma woud constantly use their inhalers... If Froome did have "asthma", I sure didn't see him use it on the tour.

    I'll be honest, I don't have asthma. But is there medication where it's a one time use and can last an entire 100+ mile stage race? If you ask me, I would expect Froome to be using it constantly. Because you know, cycling is a strenuous sport that require every single drop of oxygen... riding up mountains is taxing on your body and lungs...
    IMO, if you have asthma, then unlucky you you don't get to be an endurance athlete. It's like if you have low T, then you don't get to be a strength athlete. A person with a naturally low T level isn't allowed to take exogenous testosterone to compete in weightlifting. So I'm wondering why a person with asthma is allowed to take a drup to help him breathe easier when the sports essentially put a huge tax on his ability to breathe??? Part of the "fitness" of a cyclist to possess a great respiratory system, and if there is a problem with his system, then he needs to find another sport. In nature, guys whose respiratory system choke under stress of exercise would never rise to the top without pharmaceutical assistance.

    does it make any sense at all to see guys who claim to be life longer suffer of asthma and then see them dominate in an endurance sport where asthma is like a death warrant?? Not in nature.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    IMO, if you have asthma, then unlucky you you don't get to be an endurance athlete. It's like if you have low T, then you don't get to be a strength athlete. A person with a naturally low T level isn't allowed to take exogenous testosterone to compete in weightlifting. So I'm wondering why a person with asthma is allowed to take a drup to help him breathe easier when the sports essentially put a huge tax on his ability to breathe??? Part of the "fitness" of a cyclist to possess a great respiratory system, and if there is a problem with his system, then he needs to find another sport. In nature, guys whose respiratory system choke under stress of exercise would never rise to the top without pharmaceutical assistance.

    does it make any sense at all to see guys who claim to be life longer suffer of asthma and then see them dominate in an endurance sport where asthma is like a death warrant?? Not in nature.
    Just for clarification. Use of a fast-acting rescue inhaler (salbutamol in europe, albuterol in the US) can be done without requiring the full 1600 mcg dose acceptable by WADA/UCI. In fact, I regularly pre-treat prior to racing with two puffs of albuterol (90 mcg each for a total of 180 mcg). My personal opinion (just for you coldash) is that well-controlled asthma doesn't require the large doses of beta-2 agonists tested in studies and allowed by WADA/UCI. My races are regularly 70 miles and I've done races of 100 miles with only one pre-treatment.

    This is why I suggest that someone needing 1600 micrograms in a day is 1) a poorly controlled asthmatic or 2) taking the beta-2 agonist for performance enhancement.

    If you need 1600 mcg in a day (and Froome likely took much more to get his adverse finding), you are poorly controlled. As having been a poorly controlled asthmatic, I know that you can't perform well at lower levels, let alone the top of a sport. So, Froome must be a poorly controlled asthmatic who happens to be the world's freakiest talent, because he beats normal men EVEN with his bad asthma.

    OR

    Froome is taking the beta-2 agonist for PED purposes. If you read about long-acting beta-2 agonist, you will see that they are just as effective as short-acting beta-2 agonist. Therefore, you should be able to take something like salmetorol or fomoterol and only need one dose the morning before the race. This would effectively control your symptons for nearly 12 hours. No pro cyclists do this, because it would limit their dose. Why would they care, if they can breathe okay? Because they don't care about the bronchodilation, they care about the effect on muscle contraction. Basically, they care about performance enhancement.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    Just for clarification. Use of a fast-acting rescue inhaler (salbutamol in europe, albuterol in the US) can be done without requiring the full 1600 mcg dose acceptable by WADA/UCI. In fact, I regularly pre-treat prior to racing with two puffs of albuterol (90 mcg each for a total of 180 mcg). My personal opinion (just for you coldash) is that well-controlled asthma doesn't require the large doses of beta-2 agonists tested in studies and allowed by WADA/UCI. My races are regularly 70 miles and I've done races of 100 miles with only one pre-treatment.

    This is why I suggest that someone needing 1600 micrograms in a day is 1) a poorly controlled asthmatic or 2) taking the beta-2 agonist for performance enhancement.

    If you need 1600 mcg in a day (and Froome likely took much more to get his adverse finding), you are poorly controlled. As having been a poorly controlled asthmatic, I know that you can't perform well at lower levels, let alone the top of a sport. So, Froome must be a poorly controlled asthmatic who happens to be the world's freakiest talent, because he beats normal men EVEN with his bad asthma.

    OR

    Froome is taking the beta-2 agonist for PED purposes. If you read about long-acting beta-2 agonist, you will see that they are just as effective as short-acting beta-2 agonist. Therefore, you should be able to take something like salmetorol or fomoterol and only need one dose the morning before the race. This would effectively control your symptons for nearly 12 hours. No pro cyclists do this, because it would limit their dose. Why would they care, if they can breathe okay? Because they don't care about the bronchodilation, they care about the effect on muscle contraction. Basically, they care about performance enhancement.
    Thanks for the clarification. I'm no medical expert, and I'm not hating on asthma sufferers who just want a fair chance to compete in endurance sports that they otherwise would never be competitive without pharmaceutical assistance. I'm just trying to express my crude opinion of how to block guys like Sky from taking advantage of the system thru lawyers.

    BTW, what's to stop Froome from using this same excuse again next time he's caught?? I mean he has already set a precedence of allowing himself to exceed the dosage because of his bullshit unique physiology, and apparently the UCI accepted it. So what's to stop him (or anyone else) from using this loophole again? Has this question been addressed?

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