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  1. #1
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    Are Team Sky Definitely Doping? Educate me..

    I'm relatively new to the cycling scene however I have read much about doping within sport and particularly cycling.

    I am reading recently almost everyone in unison suggest that Team Sky and Froome are 100% doping, no questions.

    Watching Dave Brailsford and listening to the other team members however their actions would suggest they are not doping, have kicked out anyone who has ever doped before, made them sign contracts etc, are inviting officials to join them, willing to share every piece of available data.

    I am potentially na´ve however not ignorant and would be keen to be educated on exactly why everyone thinks/knows they are doping and their good performance is not due to advanced training techniques

    Surely at some point in the future excellent training, nutritional and psychological methods will over take advanced doping techniques. Like any sport, the competitors will always improve almost year on year due to new equipment, techniques, experience etc however I a big part of the reason for saying Froome is a cheat is because his recent times are in line with the doping era of 10 years ago

    I'm confused as cycling one of the only sports (although I understand justifiably) in the world where a good performance is met with massive suspicion rather than amazement/excitement

    Very keen to be educated as to the evidence to suggest they're doping

  2. #2
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    If there was evidence they'd already be kicked off the Tour.

    Lots of people in recent years have put in "good performances" and memorable stage wins...including just about every single GC podium-place winner of the last decade. Guess what? Just about ALL of them got caught doping...some a few days after memorable mountain climbs (Floyd Landis), others months or years later. Floyd Landis is a good comparison here, because he put in a seemingly "super-human" mountain stage and dropped all his competition solo after some hard stages with barely breaking a sweat. Know what happened to Floyd? A few days later he tested positive...Instead of fessing up, he yelled to all who would listen that he was innocent. He started the "Floyd Fairness Fund" to get donations to fight the result and fleeced 6-figures+ of money from fans. He wrote a book about being innocent. Which BTW funny sidenote....He was guilty as hell the whole time, and eventually admitted it.

    They all claim they are innocent, they all point to training and equipment....and the more outstanding their performances, the less likely is what they say are true. And fans have gotten cynical and jaded and simply don't believe it, because no one in recent times who puts in such performances has turned out to not be doping.

    Froome dumped Contador-a convicted doper like last year's news.
    Froome got separated from his whole team, and didn't loose any time.
    Froome almost won the ITT and put more time into his rivals.
    Froome dropped all his competition on Ventoux single-handed.

    That plotline of "superhuman" riding reminds anyone following cycling for the last decade or two of just about every convicted doper of those time. Including some of the worst sleezeball PR guys taking people's money for all they;re worth like Floyd Landis.


    No proof. Just a very healthy dose of cynicism.
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  3. #3
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    I'm really an innocent until proven guilty person, but if I had to give a definite yes or no answer, I would say that Froome is cheating. To beat those who doped in the recent past, IMO, would have to be some type of "mutant" and that person would have shown their natural capabilities since day 1. Although proper training could hone in on the skills, it wouldn't be enough to ride like Froome did on Sunday, leaving the best in the world in his dust after such a brutal ride.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    If there was evidence they'd already be kicked off the Tour.

    Lots of people in recent years have put in "good performances" and memorable stage wins...including just about every single GC podium-place winner of the last decade. Guess what? Just about ALL of them got caught doping...some a few days after memorable mountain climbs (Floyd Landis), others months or years later. Floyd Landis is a good comparison here, because he put in a seemingly "super-human" mountain stage and dropped all his competition solo after some hard stages with barely breaking a sweat. Know what happened to Floyd? A few days later he tested positive...Instead of fessing up, he yelled to all who would listen that he was innocent. He started the "Floyd Fairness Fund" to get donations to fight the result and fleeced 6-figures+ of money from fans. He wrote a book about being innocent. Which BTW funny sidenote....He was guilty as hell the whole time, and eventually admitted it.

    They all claim they are innocent, they all point to training and equipment....and the more outstanding their performances, the less likely is what they say are true. And fans have gotten cynical and jaded and simply don't believe it, because no one in recent times who puts in such performances has turned out to not be doping.

    Froome dumped Contador-a convicted doper like last year's news.
    Froome got separated from his whole team, and didn't loose any time.
    Froome almost won the ITT and put more time into his rivals.
    Froome dropped all his competition on Ventoux single-handed.

    That plotline of "superhuman" riding reminds anyone following cycling for the last decade or two of just about every convicted doper of those time. Including some of the worst sleezeball PR guys taking people's money for all they;re worth like Floyd Landis.


    No proof. Just a very healthy dose of cynicism.
    1) Contador stopped doping so is slower now. You can't assume Froome is doping by first assuming Contador is doping too.
    2) All Froome had to do was shut down 3 tiny attacks from Quintana.. then Martin and Fuglsang attacked so Froome could leave it to everyone else to chase down.
    3) Check out his TT performances vs. Wiggins & Martin last year. He's at a similar level this year, nothing surprising. Oddly enough Contador has started TTing like a small spanish climber, I wonder why that is? (for a hint, see my first point)
    4) Froome dropped all his competitors with the help of Peter kennaugh and Ritchie Porte. - I mean seriously, have you even watched the stage? By the time Ritchie Porte pulled off the front, it was only Froome and Contador left.


    I think you've had more of a healthy dose of cynicism.. you seem to be exaggerating everything for some reason. I'd guess its because there aren't any real doping scandals to talk about so you have to make one up?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALIHISGREAT View Post
    1) Contador stopped doping so is slower now. You can't assume Froome is doping by first assuming Contador is doping too.
    2) All Froome had to do was shut down 3 tiny attacks from Quintana.. then Martin and Fuglsang attacked so Froome could leave it to everyone else to chase down.
    3) Check out his TT performances vs. Wiggins & Martin last year. He's at a similar level this year, nothing surprising. Oddly enough Contador has started TTing like a small spanish climber, I wonder why that is? (for a hint, see my first point)
    4) Froome dropped all his competitors with the help of Peter kennaugh and Ritchie Porte. - I mean seriously, have you even watched the stage? By the time Ritchie Porte pulled off the front, it was only Froome and Contador left.


    I think you've had more of a healthy dose of cynicism.. you seem to be exaggerating everything for some reason. I'd guess its because there aren't any real doping scandals to talk about so you have to make one up?
    Contador stopped doping eh? If you actually believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you. As for the rest, if you think Old Steak Face is clean I'll only be talking to a brick wall. And as Carlton Kirby and Sean Kelly remarked, Porte led Froome up Ventoux-but Froome really didn't seem to need it he just spun up the climb barely breaking a sweat. Froome's ride through the Pyrenees where none of his team could catch up with him should set off warning bells....then turning around and almost winning an ITT...and now this. Like I said, I'm probably talking to a brick wall.

    Tell me the number of TdFs in recent times we've had where the yellow jersey has 4+minutes over everyone else with a week to go...where everyone else in the top 10 is separated by seconds...where said YJ ended up being clean.


    If it wasn't for Froome's superhuman rides, there's actually be a contest for the GC. Every time in the last few years anyone from anywhere has put in as dominating a performance as Froome, they turned out in short order to be doped to the gills. Every time. Believe if you want, there are those who always do. Just look at how vocal Phil and Paul defended Lance, and Contador, and Floyd, and Hamilton, etc for years. Maybe Contador and Wiggo are clean now...hence there suddenly completely unnoticeable riding this season...but given the history of the sport in the last decade...people should be rasing eyebrows at Froome's single handed domination of everyone else.
    Last edited by Marc; 07-16-2013 at 06:21 AM.
    Man. You are all stuped.
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  6. #6
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    The way Froome just sits in and spin crazy on those attacks is just surreal. It tells me that he still has some left in the tank. Up until now, Froome has never been to do this sort of spin attacks. Look at last year's Vuelta where he struggled up the steeps against the likes of Conti, JRod, Valverde.

    You could argue that in last year's Vuelta he was tired because he rode the Tour before that. Yes this is a legit argument. However, you don't go from struggling against the world's best climbers to slaughtering them like lambs 10 months later!
    Tell me in what endurance sport where an already well trained athlete make that sort of transformation in 10 months' time?? And I would argue that the transformation took place even sooner because Froome was already killing it in this year's other races before the Tour. It's like a marathon runner who is a 2nd or 3rd finisher who can suddenly put in a 2-3 minute gap on his better rivals... 6 months later... and doing it with sprinting bursts.

    This is not any training secret here. It looks more like chemistry at work. I'm curious to know what Armstrong has to say? Has he said anything about Froome's performance?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    This is not any training secret here. It looks more like chemistry at work. I'm curious to know what Armstrong has to say? Has he said anything about Froome's performance?
    I was wondering the same thing. Not a "politically correct" answer, but his true thoughts.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    I was wondering the same thing. Not a "politically correct" answer, but his true thoughts.
    Apparently Conti thinks Froome's performance is believable. So does Armstrong (the same cheat who said you can't win the Tour without doping). Omerta is alive and kickin'

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    I was wondering the same thing. Not a "politically correct" answer, but his true thoughts.
    He would probably be upset that they are pulling a page directly out of his playbook to explain the performance but not giving him credit.

    Chris Froome's Tour de France success the reward for Team Sky's training | Sport | The Guardian

    High cadence strikes again.

  10. #10
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    I could look past the mountain top finishes that Froome has put in this year. He looks like a good climber, but for him to TT as well as Tony Martin. There no explaining how well hes TT'd over the past 2-3 years. Tony Martin has been one of the better time trial performers in cycling, an hes been doing it since he was 19.

    Do a wiki lookup between Frooms TT wins and Tony Martins TT wins.

    Fact not opinion.

    Edit: Both were born in 1985 and turn pro in 2007-2008 so they match up pretty well.

  11. #11
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    Either he is superhuman or doping take your pick.
    I have not seen anything like that since the year Contador and Rasmussen where sprinting up mountains and we all know they were doping.
    Since Froome seems like a genuinely nice guy (unlike LA) I am giving him the benefit of doubt for now.

  12. #12
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    Sure, it's naive, but reading through this thread just makes me sad. What you see here... this is the true cost of doping. It's not the hit taken to one individual (financial, reputation) when they get caught. The true cost is to everyone else in the peloton and everyone who aspires to someday be in the peloton.

    Now, no matter how much one trains. No matter how hard they work or how much they're motivated. No matter how naturally gifted they may be as a cyclist. Their spectacular performance on any given day will always be clouded by suspicion they they're doping. That's the real cost of all this.

    Will we ever get to a point where we can watch a rider put in an exceptional performance without assuming/presuming they are cheating?
    When a cyclist in your area is injured or killed by a motorist, make an extra effort the next day to go for a ride. It doesn't have to be an organized ride, or even a long ride. Hell, ride a 15 minute loop around your neighborhood if you want.

    Just be seen riding your bike.

    Do it to make people aware we're out there. Do it to honor a fellow traveler. Do it because you're lucky enough to still be able to.

  13. #13
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    I believe Armstrong's statement that you couldn't win the TDF without doping is true today. Everyone doped when Armstrong raced and he was winning the TDF by 6 or 7 minutes. Sky has the better doping program just like USPS and it shows in the time gaps.

  14. #14
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    Opus, to answer your question:

    "Will we ever get to a point where we can watch a rider put in an exceptional performance without assuming/presuming they are cheating?"


    Short answer: NO!

    Sad to say, but it's the way of the world we live in.

  15. #15
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    Now, no matter how much one trains. No matter how hard they work or how much they're motivated. No matter how naturally gifted they may be as a cyclist. Their spectacular performance on any given day will always be clouded by suspicion they they're doping. That's the real cost of all this.

    Will we ever get to a point where we can watch a rider put in an exceptional performance without assuming/presuming they are cheating?
    The thing is, if it was a spectacular performance on a single day it'd be plausable. Jens Voigt has them, then drops way back the next day(s). But Froome keeps having them over and over.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Apparently Conti thinks Froome's performance is believable. So does Armstrong (the same cheat who said you can't win the Tour without doping). Omerta is alive and kickin'
    Contador isn't exactly gonna say, "well, I'm doping, no way he's clean."

    Odd note, some of my friends on Facebook were rooting for Clenbutador. I was a tad surprised as angry as people got in '09. Personally, I'm trying to figure out a good recipe to post for Carne Astana.

  17. #17
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    What is with the doping apologists on the doping forums? This is the same nonsense we heard from the literally millions of people defending LA for so many years. It is as if the person defending is somehow related to the doper in real life, or they have a monetary stake in it. Why thousands of words spent defending someone who has guilt written all over him? Because you're just such a huge fan of due process? What is the point of all this for you?

    The "where is the evidence" crowd should have been shushed long ago, but it's like an endless echo chamber, and the apologists will never go away. When someone acts superhuman, they are not actually superhuman according to EVERY instance in the past from every other rider from every other year. But for some, they look at a "superhuman" effort and surmise, "Yep, finally... a real super hero is upon us!" It reads like the logic of a true jingoist to just completely deny history. I suppose the NSA wasn't spying on us either until we just recently had proof?

    When you label something a "conspiracy" it does not make it untrue. It simply means it hasn't been proven, and everyone, especially those on a forum designed specially for talking about doping are free to speculate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALIHISGREAT View Post
    1) Contador stopped doping so is slower now. You can't assume Froome is doping by first assuming Contador is doping too.
    2) All Froome had to do was shut down 3 tiny attacks from Quintana.. then Martin and Fuglsang attacked so Froome could leave it to everyone else to chase down.
    3) Check out his TT performances vs. Wiggins & Martin last year. He's at a similar level this year, nothing surprising. Oddly enough Contador has started TTing like a small spanish climber, I wonder why that is? (for a hint, see my first point)
    4) Froome dropped all his competitors with the help of Peter kennaugh and Ritchie Porte. - I mean seriously, have you even watched the stage? By the time Ritchie Porte pulled off the front, it was only Froome and Contador left.


    I think you've had more of a healthy dose of cynicism.. you seem to be exaggerating everything for some reason. I'd guess its because there aren't any real doping scandals to talk about so you have to make one up?

  18. #18
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    Since you are a self confessed noob let's just say that doping is a very wide brush and covers many, many different levels. When I hear the phrase "Doping" at this point I assume that they mean Oxygen Vector Enhancement using a few different methods. Then there is recovery "Doping" which is a different set of products all together. And lets not forget off season "Doping" which again is different still.

    O2 Vector Doping - usually EPO or a new drug of the month. EPO when microdosed is harder to detect execpt when the rider is "Glowing" which from memory is 4 days ? However the benefits may remain for longer than 4 days thus the incentive to try this. It's a miracle drug that's for sure. A riders Hematocrit is increased and his performance goes up. Yeah - there is a downside. Blood like sludge. Heart Attacks in the middle of the night when the HR drops. etc etc.

    Closely coupled with this is "Blood Doping" where a riders own blood can be reinfused giving him better O2 transport. It's been well documented that Riders in the bad old days (think Lance Armstrong) were microdosing and blood doping and measuring their Hemotocrit daily and if it spiked too high then they infuse Saline to bring it back down under the radar.

    Now to the meat of your question(s) Could they be doping ? Yes. Until something raises a red flag to me I choose to more or less, take performances at face value. I am not privy to all the checks currently being done but I am betting that it is harder to dope now. At least in the well known manner. Something new OTOH ? Sure. But for the time being I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Bill

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Data_God View Post
    Since you are a self confessed noob let's just say that doping is a very wide brush and covers many, many different levels. When I hear the phrase "Doping" at this point I assume that they mean Oxygen Vector Enhancement using a few different methods. Then there is recovery "Doping" which is a different set of products all together. And lets not forget off season "Doping" which again is different still.

    O2 Vector Doping - usually EPO or a new drug of the month. EPO when microdosed is harder to detect execpt when the rider is "Glowing" which from memory is 4 days ? However the benefits may remain for longer than 4 days thus the incentive to try this. It's a miracle drug that's for sure. A riders Hematocrit is increased and his performance goes up. Yeah - there is a downside. Blood like sludge. Heart Attacks in the middle of the night when the HR drops. etc etc.

    Closely coupled with this is "Blood Doping" where a riders own blood can be reinfused giving him better O2 transport. It's been well documented that Riders in the bad old days (think Lance Armstrong) were microdosing and blood doping and measuring their Hemotocrit daily and if it spiked too high then they infuse Saline to bring it back down under the radar.

    Now to the meat of your question(s) Could they be doping ? Yes. Until something raises a red flag to me I choose to more or less, take performances at face value. I am not privy to all the checks currently being done but I am betting that it is harder to dope now. At least in the well known manner. Something new OTOH ? Sure. But for the time being I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Bill
    The other side of it (for new folks to understand) is that LOTS of OTC and off-the-shelf common medications are on banned substances lists at the IOC and UCI etc as they not only address common health issues...but act as PEDs too. Such as pseudoepherine, a very common hay fever and nasal decongestant pill.
    Man. You are all stuped.
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  20. #20
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    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    The thing is, if it was a spectacular performance on a single day it'd be plausable. Jens Voigt has them, then drops way back the next day(s). But Froome keeps having them over and over.
    For one team, and especially one or two riders from that team, to completely dominate an entire season (or at the very least, half of a season up to this point), and then step it up to even another level raises red flags for me.

    Any race lasting longer than three stages that Team Sky entered this year, they dominated at will, and then to step it up at will and make an entire field of world-class climbers and time trialists look like amateurs, to string out 2 weeks of spectacular performances (and it's looking like it'll be 3 weeks) is awfully hard to believe at face value.

  21. #21
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    Let me tell you

    Let me tell all of you doubters and haters simply living in the past. What motivates you to just take down the next big thing in cycling? Are you mad at newfound success? Do you only root for the domestique sheep who by your perception are too slow to be doping? What arbitrary standards do you uphold for a rider to fit the mold of the yellow jersey? Are you just going to doubt EVERY good rider? Not everyone is dirty you know? And that includes Chris Froome.

    Chris Froome is a hero. Numbers can't tell you everything. His success and level of performance is the product of immense hard work and dedication - more so than the rest of the peleton who should maybe try harder on the bike. He trains at high elevation, and rides his bike every day. His team was wisely constructed and followed the same exceptional training regimen as him, but he's their leader because of his natural born talents.

    With all this dominance, what is the difference between Froome and Lance Armstrong? Froome doesn't dope. Lance did. Froome doesn't. Froome stared the reporters cold in the eye "I.do.not.dope", not once, but TWICE already. If a guy insists on something like that more than once, there's no reason to think he has anything to hide. He is telling the truth.

    Maybe none of you can accept that the rest of the peleton has regressed, that they're all past prime and the new era riders just aren't as talented. Suspicion is only coincidence. Perhaps THEY'RE the real dopers and are suffering from tighter rules as of late. But not Chris Froome. He's just the scapegoat of your frustrations where your own hero can't win. Chris Froome is the future of cycling. What makes him win? He's a better TT'er and climber, recovers faster, has better work ethic. What's he on? his bike, busting his ass 6 hours a day.


  22. #22
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    Re: Are Team Sky Definitely Doping? Educate me..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ventruck View Post
    Let me tell all of you doubters and haters simply living in the past. What motivates you to just take down the next big thing in cycling? Are you mad at newfound success? Do you only root for the domestique sheep who by your perception are too slow to be doping? What arbitrary standards do you uphold for a rider to fit the mold of the yellow jersey? Are you just going to doubt EVERY good rider? Not everyone is dirty you know? And that includes Chris Froome.

    Chris Froome is a hero. Numbers can't tell you everything. His success and level of performance is the product of immense hard work and dedication - more so than the rest of the peleton who should maybe try harder on the bike. He trains at high elevation, and rides his bike every day. His team was wisely constructed and followed the same exceptional training regimen as him, but he's their leader because of his natural born talents.

    With all this dominance, what is the difference between Froome and Lance Armstrong? Froome doesn't dope. Lance did. Froome doesn't. Froome stared the reporters cold in the eye "I.do.not.dope", not once, but TWICE already. If a guy insists on something like that more than once, there's no reason to think he has anything to hide. He is telling the truth.

    Maybe none of you can accept that the rest of the peleton has regressed, that they're all past prime and the new era riders just aren't as talented. Suspicion is only coincidence. Perhaps THEY'RE the real dopers and are suffering from tighter rules as of late. But not Chris Froome. He's just the scapegoat of your frustrations where your own hero can't win. Chris Froome is the future of cycling. What makes him win? He's a better TT'er and climber, recovers faster, has better work ethic. What's he on? his bike, busting his ass 6 hours a day.

    If it is that simple, you'd think all the other teams with million dollar budgets wouod have caught on.
    Man. You are all stuped.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpdigital View Post
    any race lasting longer than three stages that team sky entered this year, they dominated at will, and then to step it up at will and make an entire field of world-class climbers and time trialists look like amateurs, to string out 2 weeks of spectacular performances (and it's looking like it'll be 3 weeks) is awfully hard to believe at face value.
    giro.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    caught on.
    yes. Caught on.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human G-Nome View Post
    The "where is the evidence" crowd should have been shushed long ago, but it's like an endless echo chamber, and the apologists will never go away.
    Where do you draw the line with doping speculation?

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