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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    First off, welcome back.

    I think it's in doping because inevitably the talk will turn to hormones (both naturally-produced and exogenous) and how they affect performance. In this current environment of evolving understanding/acceptance/resistance to gender identity, it's an important conversation to have in the sporting world.

    From wikipedia (I know, not the best resource, but to provide some context):
    "It is estimated that about 0.005% to 0.014% of people assigned male at birth and 0.002% to 0.003% of people assigned female at birth would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, based on 2013 diagnostic criteria, though this is considered a modest underestimate."
    In this case the person is a F to M trans kid wrestling against other boys. He has no competitive advantage

    Estimates about trans people vary widely and are usually higher based on social acceptance. In more open minded areas you might see 2%, in more close minded areas you will see less than 1%. The challenge is most trans people live in "Stealth" mode. Like the kid who was outed by the coach, he just wanted to be a kid, be part of a team, live as his correct gender. The coach chose to out him in the most humiliating way possible.

    Social acceptance is key and kids are way ahead of adults on these subject. An example is how homosexuality has rapidly lost it's stigma. The result is kids are free to live a more authentic life.

    Nearly 50% of kids do not identity as exclusively hetro
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...al-yougov.html

    As gay marriage became the norm youth suicide rates dropped
    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/...-youth-suicide

    Family and societal acceptance and allowed trans kids to live normal lives, with depression levels on par with other kids.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...family-support

    The coach, and other trolls who think it is fun to out trans people, is deplorable.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    In this case the person is a F to M trans kid wrestling against other boys. He has no competitive advantage

    Estimates about trans people vary widely and are usually higher based on social acceptance. In more open minded areas you might see 2%, in more close minded areas you will see less than 1%. The challenge is most trans people live in "Stealth" mode. Like the kid who was outed by the coach, he just wanted to be a kid, be part of a team, live as his correct gender. The coach chose to out him in the most humiliating way possible.

    Social acceptance is key and kids are way ahead of adults on these subject. An example is how homosexuality has rapidly lost it's stigma. The result is kids are free to live a more authentic life.

    Nearly 50% of kids do not identity as exclusively hetro
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...al-yougov.html

    As gay marriage became the norm youth suicide rates dropped
    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/...-youth-suicide

    Family and societal acceptance and allowed trans kids to live normal lives, with depression levels on par with other kids.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...family-support

    The coach, and other trolls who think it is fun to out trans people, is deplorable.
    Social acceptance is indeed key. I've lived all my life between many parts of Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Singapore, China) and the US. From my observation, I believe religion has a great influence on how gays/trans are stigmatized in the US. In Asia, these folks are also sort of stigmatized too, but not anywhere close to like they are in the US. In many of these Asian societies, Buddhism is the religion followed closely by "ancestoral worshipping", and there is no "god" (in the sense of the Abrahamic god). For them, the use the concept of "god" interchangably with "nature"; god is nature and nature is god. So when these people are confronted with dealing with a gay or trans, yes they too would initially feel uncomfortable and confused, but, then they would revert to saying something like, "that's just nature, like a rose is red, like a thorn is sharp", and they accept gays/trans like they accept nature. I mean, you would never find a monk or any religious figure, or a temple, reject gays/trans like you do here in the US. Phrase like "God shall punish you for your sins", is almost never heard of being used over there in the same context like Americans use it. The equivalent belief would be "karma".

    Another thing that makes acceptance of trans/gays easy over there than in the US is that hetero males, from all ages, from school kids to adults, do put their arms over each other's shoulders and kid around with each other in ways that Western men (even liberal ones) would never do. In fact, in grade school, it is not uncommon for kids to participate in drama plays where boys would dress up and pretend to be girls, and girls pretend to be boys, something you would not find much if at all in the US. They in effect turn something that is heavily stigmatized in the America into some sort a comedy to be made lightly and thus in the process help with its acceptance once the kids grow into adults and see the same situation in real life.
    Last edited by aclinjury; 03-10-2018 at 03:59 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Social acceptance is indeed key. I've lived all my life between many parts of Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Singapore, China) and the US. From my observation, I believe religion has a great influence on how gays/trans are stigmatized in the US. In Asia, these folks are also sort of stigmatized too, but not anywhere close to like they are in the US. In many of these Asian societies, Buddhism is the religion followed closely by "ancestoral worshipping", and there is no "god" (in the sense of the Abrahamic god). For them, the use the concept of "god" interchangably with "nature"; god is nature and nature is god. So when these people are confronted with dealing with a gay or trans, yes they too would initially feel uncomfortable and confused, but, then they would revert to saying something like, "that's just nature, like a rose is red, like a thorn is sharp", and they accept gays/trans like they accept nature. I mean, you would never find a monk or any religious figure, or a temple, reject gays/trans like you do here in the US. Phrase like "God shall punish you for your sins", is almost never heard of being used over there in the same context like Americans use it. The equivalent belief would be "karma".

    Another thing that makes acceptance of trans/gays easy over there than in the US is that hetero males, from all ages, from school kids to adults, do put their arms over each other's shoulders and kid around with each other in ways that Western men (even liberal ones) would never do. In fact, in grade school, it is not uncommon for kids to participate in drama plays where boys would dress up and pretend to be girls, and girls pretend to be boys, something you would not find much if at all in the US. They in effect turn something that is heavily stigmatized in the America into some sort a comedy to be made lightly and thus in the process help with its acceptance once the kids grow into adults and see the same situation in real life.
    Well said, doc! Great commentary, Aclinjury! Had similar experiences traveling in SE Asia and India. Even France and Italy! They've worked out ways of accommodating the exceptions. Americans are still conflicted. Nice to read the kids are pulling out of it. Very interesting.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 03-10-2018 at 08:33 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    Please spare us the histrionics about being attacked by the language police. There is a reason the medical terminology was changed to match the latest medical research. If you are not up to date on the facts, then perhaps you should make yourself so before passing judgement on the people who have to live with dysphoria.
    Has anyone in this thread passed judgment on the kid?

    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    you need to stop being an apologist for the coach. He was an ahole supreme bigot at minimum. Why do you feel like defending a bigot? Trust me it doesn't make you look smart, intelligent, logical, or compassionate, at all. Fortunately, the world is moving away from defending such bigots.
    Why attack me personally? Deal with what I say, not who you think I am.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    Has anyone in this thread passed judgment on the kid?

    Why attack me personally? Deal with what I say, not who you think I am.
    On this kid, not exactly. On transgenders in general, you most certainly have.

    "Why should the rest of the world ignore biological facts and comply with the gender identity disorders of children?"

    "It's even worse if we go cutting off the balls of little boys because they are confused." (note, they do not do that to "little boys", just another fact of transitioning that you did not seem to know).

    Those statements of yours most definitely are judgmental about a group of people of whom you are not terribly well informed.
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  6. #56
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    If it is possible to move to the step after outrage toward how people found out kid was trans...

    Is it acceptable to have high school age people, some with penises and some with vaginas changing together in the same locker room at the same time?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    On this kid, not exactly. On transgenders in general, you most certainly have.

    "Why should the rest of the world ignore biological facts and comply with the gender identity disorders of children?"

    "It's even worse if we go cutting off the balls of little boys because they are confused." (note, they do not do that to "little boys", just another fact of transitioning that you did not seem to know).

    Those statements of yours most definitely are judgmental about a group of people of whom you are not terribly well informed.
    You quoted two things from me.

    I used the 2013 medical diagnosis in the first statement. It seems that your biggest quarrel was with my use of the word "disorder" -- well, that was part of the medical diagnosis up until 2013 and the word is currently used in other diagnosis. So...?

    In the second statement, we can all agree that there is a great deal of confusion and struggle for trans children. Nobody doubts that this is a really hard time for them and that they are confused. Actually, I should not speak so broadly: Do you think trans children are completely free of confusion?

    Move past the personal attacks and outrage. It isn't helping you or the trans kids. Now see if you can address the actual questions.

    Why should the rest of the world comply with the mental state of an individual? (trans children or adults)

    Given that children have very little experience with the world, isn't is better to not rush into medical procedures?

    Once you get past his personal attacks and attempts at character assassination, doc made an argument. He said that waiting is part of the treatment plan. Of course, he defines waiting as delaying puberty with drugs. (He also lost his mind when I said that some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility--of course this is a fact.) So is that best? Does it do more harm than good?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    ....some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility--
    Is this an issue? Don't believe medical science is yet capable of giving M>F transgenders the ability to get pregnant and reproduce. Also kind of doubt F>M transgenders want to keep their female equipment, just in case they want to change their minds. So sterility is an irrelevant issue.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Is this an issue? Don't believe medical science is yet capable of giving M>F transgenders the ability to get pregnant and reproduce. Also kind of doubt F>M transgenders want to keep their female equipment, just in case they want to change their minds. So sterility is an irrelevant issue.
    It is an issue if the trans individual wants to have kids of their own. It may also be an issue if they grow up and decide that they are no longer trans.

    After I said what you quoted, that some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility, Doctor Falsetti repeatedly called me a liar. Of course, what I wrote is exactly right.

    Dr. Samuel Pang, Medical Director at IVF New England, has been treating gay and transgender men and women since 1998. According to Pang, any type of treatment – surgery or hormonal – may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future.


    So I said the hormones may cause sterility. Dr. Pang says any type of treatment--surgery or hormonal -- may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future.

    Those seem pretty close to me.

    Dr. Pang continues in a Q&A:
    Q: I’ve already started my transition with hormone therapy, but did not freeze my sperm or eggs prior. What's next?

    A: Unfortunately, not all doctors present options for fertility preservation before you transition. If hormone therapy is halted, there is the possibility that sperm production may resume and ovaries will ovulate again. What’s unknown, because this is a new field, is how long can you be on hormone therapy before it could potentially become reversible. “I have had transgender men who have been on testosterone therapy for up to 18 months, and when we stopped his testosterone therapy he began ovulating and menstruating, which then allowed us to stimulate his ovaries and retrieve his eggs,” Pang says. However many men are reluctant to stop testosterone therapy because it can be psychologically distressing; you’ve been living as a man, and now facial hair stops growing and you start menstruating. It’s an option, but it’s not ideal. That’s why it is so important to consider fertility preservation before you initiate the transition.

    ...

    Q: I have a child under the age of 18 who is considering transitioning. What are options for preserving his or her fertility?

    A: Children are coming out and transitioning at younger ages. If the child is post puberty, eggs or sperm can be retrieved and frozen. “The biggest obstacle would be where young boys or girls are given medications to suppress puberty,” Pang says. “A trans girl would be given drugs to prevent her from undergoing puberty so her penis and testicles won’t grow and she won’t produce testosterone. If they don’t undergo puberty, that would prevent a huge challenge for fertility preservation.”
    https://www.fertilityauthority.com/a...-men-and-women

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    It is an issue if the trans individual wants to have kids of their own. It may also be an issue if they grow up and decide that they are no longer trans.
    So, this is something they decide, eh? It's a choice, just like being gay.

    What's the Matter with Kansas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by feh View Post
    So, this is something they decide, eh? It's a choice, just like being gay.

    First, aren't you the one who tried to score some cheap points because I used the word disorder, claiming that it spoke to my state of mind? Well, what does it say about my state of mind that I used that word?

    (Do you respond to questions like this or are you more of a hit-and-run poster?)


    And, have you read the latest diagnostic terms in the 2013 edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders?

    Let's all hope the title of the book doesn't cause harm to anyone.



    Next, did you know that some trans people de-transition?


  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    It is an issue if the trans individual wants to have kids of their own. It may also be an issue if they grow up and decide that they are no longer trans.

    After I said what you quoted, that some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility, Doctor Falsetti repeatedly called me a liar. Of course, what I wrote is exactly right.

    Dr. Samuel Pang, Medical Director at IVF New England, has been treating gay and transgender men and women since 1998. According to Pang, any type of treatment – surgery or hormonal – may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future.


    So I said the hormones may cause sterility. Dr. Pang says any type of treatment--surgery or hormonal -- may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future.

    Those seem pretty close to me.

    Dr. Pang continues in a Q&A:

    https://www.fertilityauthority.com/a...-men-and-women
    I'd sure like to learn more about the psychological determinants of gender dysphoria. If doctors worry about trans men starting to have periods if they run out of hormones, it could get complicated.

    Still have to wonder why a trans patient would want to change his mind when he becomes adult. Picking up on what doc said, my feeling is wait until the organism naturally forms in the birth "gender," including "effeminate" men and "masculine" women, until the equipment is fully formed, generally agreed as by age 18, the "age of consent." Move out of the restricted home environment, enter the wide world, find out the possibilities of sexual identity outside what mommy and daddy showed ya, and if she really wants to be a man, apes a man in dress and appearance, and dates feminine lesbian women, go for it. By that time she'll have thoughts about it long enough to have faith in her decision to bag it and become a guy, minus the proper equipment between his legs.

    The unassailable fact is, it takes an egg and sperm to reproduce, so far. In vitro fertilization still requires a sperm donor. Having babies requires a heterosexual relationship, it seems to me. Transgenders gave up the necessary equipment and presumably never want it back. If a trans couple wants a kid, how do they get around that? Adoption, like with gay couples?

    Genetic cloning may solve that limitation. The possibilities then become truly Dr. Frankenstein.

    The nature of sexual relationships is already transforming away from utilitarian, once required to propagate the tribe and now for personal psychological health, to focus on the spiritual, dealt with in the past through art or religion. Sex has been intimately connected to that throughout history. It flowers in times of peace and plenty. We're in one right now. Rock on.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    (Do you respond to questions like this or are you more of a hit-and-run poster?)
    ]
    It's not worth my time to interact with you; not when you clearly feel these people either have a disorder or are making a lifestyle choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    You quoted two things from me.

    I used the 2013 medical diagnosis in the first statement. It seems that your biggest quarrel was with my use of the word "disorder" -- well, that was part of the medical diagnosis up until 2013 and the word is currently used in other diagnosis. So...?

    In the second statement, we can all agree that there is a great deal of confusion and struggle for trans children. Nobody doubts that this is a really hard time for them and that they are confused. Actually, I should not speak so broadly: Do you think trans children are completely free of confusion?

    Move past the personal attacks and outrage. It isn't helping you or the trans kids. Now see if you can address the actual questions.

    Why should the rest of the world comply with the mental state of an individual? (trans children or adults)

    Given that children have very little experience with the world, isn't is better to not rush into medical procedures?

    Once you get past his personal attacks and attempts at character assassination, doc made an argument. He said that waiting is part of the treatment plan. Of course, he defines waiting as delaying puberty with drugs. (He also lost his mind when I said that some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility--of course this is a fact.) So is that best? Does it do more harm than good?
    Those folk who like to belittle the transgender community love to use the word "confusion" - as if transgender people are just going through a little phase that, once they have things pointed out to them, they will leave behind and be like everyone else. Transgender children and adults are certain that they happened to be "born with the wrong plumbing". No one goes through HRT without having undergone hours of sessions with professional therapists who then have to write a letter of recommendation.

    The puberty blocking drugs given to adolescents undergoing this therapy are not drugs that will sterilize them - they are merely drugs that help delay the onset of puberty until such a time as the child and the therapist is certain that HRT is the correct step to take. Both Dr Falsetto and I have taken exception to the claim you made that drugs were being given to children to sterilize them - this is not the case. Yes, HRT will sterilize the patient - but it is not administered to children. So, no, there is no rush into medical procedures. The puberty blockers are a "do no harm" interim step. If the child decides that transitioning is not in his/her future, then those drugs are stopped and puberty develops as it would have - just delayed. If those drugs are not administered to a transgender child, irreparable psychological damage could be inflicted upon that person.

    "Why should the rest of the world comply with the mental state of an individual?"

    How about compassion? For those in the medical profession, they have taken an oath to "do no harm". Denying that a transgender situation exists is doing harm, and has led to numerous suicides over the years. This is why I have taken such an exception to your posts - you have been using the arguments advanced by those who deny that transgenderism exists ("those poor folk are just confused! We shouldn't encourage their behavior!").
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

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    Frederico wrote: " If a trans couple wants a kid, how do they get around that? Adoption, like with gay couples?"

    Adoption is one way. A lot of people in transition - at least those who can afford it - have their sperm/eggs frozen for future use. I know of at least one case where a transgender man had one of his frozen eggs fertilized in vitro and then implanted and has carried the baby to term so that he and his partner could experience the joy of raising their genetic child.
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    I know of at least one case where a transgender man had one of his frozen eggs fertilized in vitro and then implanted and has carried the baby to term so that he and his partner could experience the joy of raising their genetic child.
    I realize this will be used to construe me as a complete a$$. But, what?

    The trans man was actually a female with operating female parts and a male partner. So, the trans man was also homosexual?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    After I said what you quoted, that some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility, Doctor Falsetti repeatedly called me a liar. Of course, what I wrote is exactly right.

    Why do you lie?

    You wrote
    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    It's weird to give a little boy drugs that prevent puberty and may cause lifelong sterility.
    Puberty blockers do not cause lifelong sterility. I gave you multiple sources that showed you are lying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    Next, did you know that some trans people de-transition?
    I have known many kids who have transitioned. The only one that I know who de-transitioned did so due to pressure from their parents and church. They committed suicide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    If it is possible to move to the step after outrage toward how people found out kid was trans...

    Is it acceptable to have high school age people, some with penises and some with vaginas changing together in the same locker room at the same time?
    The thread is about how some bullies enjoy outing trans kids. Some folks like outing people. Deplorable

    You should start a tread about restroom laws. The majority of Americans live in states where this is the law, many for decades. Millions of kids, thousands of restrooms. Outside of the actions of a few fringe hate groups this had not been an issue.

    Kids don't care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    I realize this will be used to construe me as a complete a$$. But, what?

    The trans man was actually a female with operating female parts and a male partner. So, the trans man was also homosexual?
    It is a reasonable question.

    Being trans does not always mean you are gay. It is about gender, not sexuality. There is increasing consensus that sexuality and gender are set prenatally. Some trolls will push the lie that trans people are just "Confused" but the medical community strongly disputes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    The thread is about how some bullies enjoy outing trans kids. Some folks like outing people. Deplorable

    You should start a tread about restroom laws. The majority of Americans live in states where this is the law, many for decades. Millions of kids, thousands of restrooms. Outside of the actions of a few fringe hate groups this had not been an issue.

    Kids don't care.
    I thought the thread was about the article in your OP. I am not talking about bathroom laws. I am not sure you can see past your outrage to other issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    I thought the thread was about the article in your OP.
    Did you read the article? The coach broke the rules and outed a trans kid, humiliated him, sat by while he was bullied.....exactly what I wrote.


    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    I am not talking about bathroom laws.
    Did you read your own post? Here it is
    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Is it acceptable to have high school age people, some with penises and some with vaginas changing together in the same locker room at the same time?
    Most of Americans live in a state that have nondiscrimination laws, the result millions of kids have been using facilities with trans kids for decades. Me pointing out these facts is not "Outrage".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    Has anyone in this thread passed judgment on the kid?

    Why attack me personally? Deal with what I say, not who you think I am.
    Seems to be the thing to do on this forum.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    Seems to be the thing to do on this forum.
    Spew some nonsense then cry victim when someone calls you on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Did you read the article?
    Did you?

    From article "Tolliver made it clear that he didn’t want Aiden changing in the boy’s locker room and insisted that Aiden was a girl, the teen claims".

    That prompted my question on whether minors - some with vaginas and some with penises - should change in the same locker room at the same time.

    Instead of considering that, you toss thinly veiled insults. I understand that you see the coach as a total POS. Fine.

    If gender is fluid and sexual preference is not connected to gender, then h
    ow does society deal with the more abstracted issue of minors with penises and vaginas changing together?

    Edit: you did make the unsupported assertion that many states have laws permitting different sex locker rooms for minor children and that millions of different sex children change together all the time. Wish i would have gone to one of those thousands of schools when i was in high school.
    Last edited by crit_boy; 03-14-2018 at 07:16 AM.

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