Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: PBL450's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,838

    Valverde Doping Outrage

    So, I ask, why isnít there labile exaggerated outrage about the idea that Valverde is dirty? Heís killing pure climbers, out sprinting Sagan... Heís 38 and coming off a brutal injury. Oh, wait... and heís a doper. Actually and uncontroversially caught and banned. Doper. Iíd argue that his performance in this Vuelta is far more suspicious and atypical than Froome at the Giro. But no 10 page long thread on it? Or is it only Chris Froome that we are outraged by, even when he makes up most of his time descending? I guess Iím just trying to understand the zeitgeist...
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  2. #2
    flinty-eyed moderator
    Reputation: Coolhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    12,744
    known doper, known doping DS, from a really fishy team (Movistar). At 38, riding in the break, going against top sprinters (and beating them), out-climbing many climbing specialist including his supposed GC man, and then going real hard in the TT.

    Gee Sky is the real problem here. . .
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  3. #3
    Cycling Addict
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    3,839
    Did not Valverde already serve a two year suspension? If he tests positive again, he will likely get suspended again if not a lifetime ban. Sometimes the system works...
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,405
    For me, the difference between Froome and Valverde this year is that one failed a test and the other hasnít. Valverdeís success this late in his career is definitely suspicious but I have to put it at like a Chris Horner level since there isnít any recent evidence to confirm he is cheating.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  5. #5
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,361
    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    For me, the difference between Froome and Valverde this year is that one failed a test and the other hasnít. Valverdeís success this late in his career is definitely suspicious but I have to put it at like a Chris Horner level since there isnít any recent evidence to confirm he is cheating.

    Well, the real difference, is that Vuelta doesn't have anywhere near the stature/attention of Tour de France....unless you're in spain.

    Every 12 months, the racing boards everywhere pickup traffic/membership as people talk TdF...and then go back to lurker mode for 12 months.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  6. #6
    The Slow One.
    Reputation: Alaska Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,679
    At this point... I'm just tired.

    Valverde has always been there in the mix, across a variety of races. He's a consistent performer, which points to a verifiable talent or effective doping. Some would say both.

    It's kinda obvious that there's still doping going on at the highest levels. Not at the levels of the late 1990s/2000s, but it's still going on. Micro-dosing and any number of other methods to achieve "marginal gains" are how it's done now.

    Do I think the sport is covering it up? Not really. Even though they would like to avoid another scandal, I just think the dopers are just ahead of the testers. It's only when the dopers get sloppy or desperate that they get caught. Until we have a positive test and a case strong enough to make it stick will we know that this guy or that guy is dirty.

    Until that day, it would be a piti to burn yourself out worrying about it. There's really nothing you can do about it.

    ...and honestly, I'm just glad to see Sky getting crushed in a GT for a change.

  7. #7
    flinty-eyed moderator
    Reputation: Coolhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    12,744
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post



    Until that day, it would be a piti to burn yourself out worrying about it. There's really nothing you can do about it.
    I see what you did there. . .
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    539
    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    So, I ask, why isnít there labile exaggerated outrage about the idea that Valverde is dirty?
    Sadly, I've given up caring, and watching. I think all, or almost all of the top guys are still doping, some better than others, especially for grand tours.

  9. #9
    The Slow One.
    Reputation: Alaska Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,679
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    I see what you did there. . .
    I don't know how spell-check didn't catch that honest mistake. I'm usually much better at proofreading.

  10. #10
    flinty-eyed moderator
    Reputation: Coolhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    12,744
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    I don't know how spell-check didn't catch that honest mistake. I'm usually much better at proofreading.
    Too bad, I thought that was pretty funny:

    Alejandro Valverde has been linked by documentary and DNA evidence to the Operaciůn Puerto, a blood-doping affair which erupted in May 2006 against doctor Eufemiano Fuentes and a number of accomplices. It uncovered doping products, bags of blood and human plasma, and code names that appeared to link top athletes, including up to 60 cyclists, to a highly organized system of doping, which relied heavily on blood transfusions.[69]

    Valverde was not initially linked in the investigation, but documents from Madrid's Court 31 linked Valverde to a single bag of human plasma of the 211 total bags of blood and plasma seized in the investigation. The bag of human plasma was labelled with the codes Valv, Piti and 18.[70][71] In 2007 Valverde was banned by the International Cycling Union (UCI) from competing in the UCI Road World Championships in Stuttgart but Valverde was cleared by the Court of Arbitration for Sport to compete at the championships.[72] Dick Pound, World Anti-Doping Agency president, said the CAS decision did not mean that Valverde was no longer a suspect.[73]

    In early 2009 the Italian National Olympic Committee matched DNA samples taken from Valverde during a rest day in Italy of the 2008 Tour de France to plasma seized in the Operaciůn Puerto investigation.[74] At a February 2009 appearance in front of the Olympic Committee, Valverde maintained his innocence and questioned the Italians' jurisdiction over this case. In May 2009, the Italian Olympic Committee suspended him from competition in Italy for 2 years, effectively barring him from the 2009 Tour de France, which detoured briefly onto Italian soil.[75] Valverde filed an unsuccessful appeal against the Italian ban with the Court of Arbitration for Sport; in a second hearing on 18Ė21 March 2010, the UCI and WADA contested the Spanish Cycling Federation's decision not to open a case against Valverde.[76]

    Finally, on 31 May 2010 it was announced the Court of Arbitration for Sport upheld the appeals from WADA and the UCI and Valverde was banned for two years, starting 1 January 2010, but rejected the request that any results obtained by the athlete prior to the beginning of the suspension be annulled.[77][78] After serving the two-year suspension Alejandro Valverde returned to competition in 2012 riding for the Movistar Team.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_Valverde
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  11. #11
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    567
    There does appear to be a curious asymmetry in the reactions of some high profile posters to Valverde's unbelievable performance - no calls for urine and/or eggs to be thrown at him and his team, no calls for other teams to take action against Movistar - all of which such actions I would condemn but it is odd.

    The Vuelta has a history of some odd results e.g. Cobo and Horner to name just two recent (ish) winners.

    At least today, Valverde didn't outsprint Sagan - probably saving his legs to outclimb the dedicated climbers in the next few stages.

  12. #12
    The Slow One.
    Reputation: Alaska Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,679
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    Too bad, I thought that was pretty funny
    My sarcasm doesn't always translate without emojis. I admit, it was intentional.

  13. #13
    The Slow One.
    Reputation: Alaska Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,679
    Let's be honest, the Vuelta this year doesn't have the big guns like the Tour and Giro did. It's basically up-and-comers, riders prepping for Worlds, and riders/teams desperate for a result that are on display. It makes for a wonderfully unpredictable race. Breakaways stick here. Riders climb up and plummet down the rankings every day. The metronomic and methodical TDF is boring in comparison. This is throw caution to the wind and go for it racing, and it's much more interesting to me.

    You know what? I love that the best GC rider for Sky is almost 10 minutes back. They haven't sucked the air out of the room for a change.

    I don't want any rider attacked physically on or off the bike. Well, maybe Lance, but that's about it. I think it's a disgusting display, but I understand that many feel the governing body isn't doing enough to discourage doping, so they express their displeasure more directly. Doesn't make it right, but I can see where they're coming from. The problem is, professional cycling has never been that "noble" in this regard, so nobody is protecting its "honor" with such displays.

    Froome popped hot and got off. Many of us think it's because the UCI didn't want a protracted fight, the negative press that would come with it, or the chance of losing a well-financed, stable team from the roster. In other words, the UCI blinked and overnight the number of "asthmatics" in the peloton tripled.

    Valverde got caught with his blood where it shouldn't have been, which I agree was a far more serious offense. They didn't catch him through testing, and they haven't caught him since. If he would have had "suspicious" values indicated, I think it would have leaked by now. All you can point at is a sustained period of performance since his sanction, into his late 30s. It's curious, and the cycling mags use euphemisms like "evergreen" to describe it, but it's no smoking gun. These days, even a positive test isn't a smoking gun...

    Until there is one, they ride.

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: El Scorcho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    759
    Quote Originally Posted by coldash View Post
    There does appear to be a curious asymmetry in the reactions of some high profile posters to Valverde's unbelievable performance - no calls for urine and/or eggs to be thrown at him and his team, no calls for other teams to take action against Movistar - all of which such actions I would condemn but it is odd.
    Maybe it's just because he's a likable guy. Froome is unwatchable, and unlikable, clean or dirty it makes no difference, I can't stand him.

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    567
    Quote Originally Posted by El Scorcho View Post
    Maybe it's just because he's a likable guy. Froome is unwatchable, and unlikable, clean or dirty it makes no difference, I can't stand him.
    All in your humble opinion, Iím sure. I donít find either of them particularly agreeable or disagreeable. If you want to support throwing piss at people you canít stand then that says more about you than them

  16. #16
    flinty-eyed moderator
    Reputation: Coolhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    12,744
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    My sarcasm doesn't always translate without emojis. I admit, it was intentional.
    Well done then- enjoy the free rep!
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: El Scorcho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    759
    Quote Originally Posted by coldash View Post
    All in your humble opinion, Iím sure. I donít find either of them particularly agreeable or disagreeable. If you want to support throwing piss at people you canít stand then that says more about you than them
    What are you on about? I simply made an observation that I find Valverde more likable than Froome and the possibility that others have the same opinion. Therefore, Froome sees more vitriol than Valverde. There was no support of the piss throwing in my comment.

    And no, my opinion has never been humble.

  18. #18
    The Slow One.
    Reputation: Alaska Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,679
    Nationalistic/tribal/cultural fervor has more to do with how a rider's doping is responded to by crowds than anything else. If Pinot had popped hot but was wearing the yellow jersey, he would not get the same response as Froome in France. There's a clash there that far predates the bicycle. Sir Dave didn't help. At all, at any point. Froome's own public pronouncements, while not as damaging, were viewed as part of the whole Sky machine, which is not viewed by most as a trustworthy organization. Just fuel for the fire.

    People chased Lance with giant syringes and spit on him. Merckx got punched. Cavendish got soaked with urine. None of this is new.

    Asking for no anti-Anglo sentiment in France is like asking for no political statements in the Basque Country. Sorry.

    Is it right? Nope. But it comes with the territory in a sport that covers so many miles of open road and fans that sit for hours or days in one spot, drinking, for a few minutes of race viewing.

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    567
    The xenophobia of the French cycling fans, encouraged by the French Press and that hypocrit, Hinault, is well known. The phenomenon of the piss-throwing advocates on the net is fairly recent. The question remains as to why a team with as questionable a palmares as Movistar escapes censure.

  20. #20
    flinty-eyed moderator
    Reputation: Coolhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    12,744
    Quote Originally Posted by coldash View Post
    The xenophobia of the French cycling fans, encouraged by the French Press and that hypocrit, Hinault, is well known. The phenomenon of the piss-throwing advocates on the net is fairly recent. The question remains as to why a team with as questionable a palmares as Movistar escapes censure.
    Movistar has a court system that seems determined to protect Spanish interests. See todays article:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada...racion-puerto/

    Just in case anyone has any remaining doubts about the supernatural riding in question.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  21. #21
    The Slow One.
    Reputation: Alaska Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,679
    Quote Originally Posted by coldash View Post
    The xenophobia of the French cycling fans, encouraged by the French Press and that hypocrit, Hinault, is well known.
    If you're referring to his refusal to pee in '82, well there may or may not be something there. I don't know all of the specifics of the incident, and it was a very, very different time. You don't hear much about Hinault from his peers and adversaries, and if it hasn't come out by now, it probably won't.

    Froome's reception at the Giro was probably affected by his lackluster, under-the-radar performance early on. By the time he did his big ride, which some have characterized as "unbelievable", the negative response didn't have time to ferment before it was all over. Even Lance was better received in France when it was perceived he wasn't in top form. That said, the Italians have been historically more forgiving of dopers than the French.

    Quote Originally Posted by coldash View Post
    The phenomenon of the piss-throwing advocates on the net is fairly recent. The question remains as to why a team with as questionable a palmares as Movistar escapes censure.
    In all fairness, the internet and the echo-chamber of incivility it creates is fairly recent. Sky is an easy target based on several reasons, and they do nothing to help themselves in this regard. Just having Gianni Moscon on the roster would be enough for some people, and then Brailford opens his mouth...

    It doesn't excuse the physical assaults, but the reasons for the hatred of Sky can't all be laid at the feet of the French Press and Hinault. A lot of people just don't like Sky.

    I do think if Froome rode for another team, he would get better treatment from the general public.

  22. #22
    off the back
    Reputation: rufus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    13,321
    I'm firmly of the opinion that they're all doping. But Valverde hasn't failed a test yet, while Froome did. And if Moviestar is a reknowned doping team with a reknowned doping DS, they why isn't Nairo climbing as well as Valverde? Is he the only one of them racing clean?


    And if Valverde's doping, what about Simon Yates? Michael Woods? Ben King? Sagan?
    Eff the King's Guard. Eff the city. Eff the King.

  23. #23
    flinty-eyed moderator
    Reputation: Coolhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    12,744
    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I'm firmly of the opinion that they're all doping. But Valverde hasn't failed a test yet. . . .
    Stop the bus-- Valverde is a convicted doper:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...o-valverde-ban

    Ole Piti has been given a free pass to juice it up 2002 style:

    Spanish authorities have long frustrated the UCI by refusing to investigate riders, arguing that national laws left them powerless. Valverde was, therefore, able to win a Cas ruling when the UCI tried to bar him from the road World Championships in 2007.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  24. #24
    The Slow One.
    Reputation: Alaska Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,679
    However, how Valverde interacts with the press even after a difficult day like today affects how he's covered by the press and perceived by the public. Sky could take a page from his book in this regard.

    Technically, he hasn't failed a test. He got caught with his hand (and blood) in the cookie jar. His sanction was justified and served. Until he gets caught again in one way or another, he's going to ride.

  25. #25
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Oxtox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    9,957
    have simply ceased caring about doping.

    just watch the racing and enjoy the scenery....
    Ancient Astronaut theorists say, 'YES!'

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Where is the Outrage?
    By MR_GRUMPY in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-02-2006, 08:26 AM
  2. Replies: 29
    Last Post: 07-19-2006, 06:48 AM
  3. where's all the outrage over leaks?
    By rufus in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 07-11-2006, 08:16 PM
  4. Where's the outrage?
    By Gripped in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-13-2006, 09:11 AM
  5. White House Outrage??
    By magnolialover in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: 05-24-2005, 05:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.