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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Okay, let's assume that's true.



    You seem to be making an argument for more gears in back, i.e. the majority of weaker riders could use a wider range, and more gears in back gives them a wider range without increasing the gear spacing.
    Yes, but as with anything, there is a sweet spot. Read my opening post. What is intrinsically wrong with 12s? All the things I mentioned in my OP. Yes a greater range of overall gearing is created with 12s for the same spacing between shifts, but it comes at a higher cost of more weight, weaker chain, weaker cogs, cogs spaced closer together for greater cross chain sensitivity and opportunity for greater set up error aka cable tension sensitivity for proper indexing. I mentioned for me, I don't need more than 10 cogs in back. A smart rider puts the range of gearing on the bike that covers his needs based upon strength and terrain.. You can have a 34t chainring in front and a 32t cog in back with 10 cogs in back which will allow an average rider to get up very steep hills. Not enough? Put a triple in front with 22t granny gear. 10s in back is plenty. More is marketing. I own both 10 and 11s.

    So I believe 12s with Campy is overreach with a clear downside.
    Last edited by 11spd; 04-14-2018 at 03:45 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    Shame on you Campy for not checking with internet Windbag 11sp before innovating.
    Good on Campy for releasing 12s for dumbsh!t factory feel, Campy's target demo. He's the man for the job as a worthy clueless bottom feeder...lol.

    And what do you believe the tradeoffs are factory feel for Campy 12s? Why didn't they go straight to 13 or 14 speed if more is better?
    Uhhhh, duuhhhh, weeell....its got gears doesn't it? What color is it?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Good on Campy for releasing 12s for dumbsh!t factory feel, Campy's target demo. He's the man for the job as a worthy clueless bottom feeder...lol.
    Excellent commentary. Making us proud.

    - sarcasm for clarity -

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Excellent commentary. Making us proud.

    - sarcasm for clarity -
    Factory feel is typically funny but is insufferably clueless.
    Of course he feels left out because he lacks any original thought and when he feels overwhelmed by his insecurity, he has to take his shot.
    Crit boy, speaking of original thought, you have any thoughts on 12 speed?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Racing on Medieval cobblestones is close! Hinault and LeMond considered P-R sadomasochistic.

    Those paper thin wimpy discs wouldn't hold up hitting the cobblestones at 25 mph. The heavier forks to hold up under disc braking are not as shock absorbent as the rim brake versions. Wheel changes on that brutal course are problematic. Are these brakes now self-centering?

    And look at those chain rings! I'm thinking about putting the 44 t. on this Spring, just for kicks. It was a sweet gear on the flats, and could handle the climbs, with minor adjustments, as well as the 42. 44, 46, are great on the flats, as single speed riders, and those P-R riders will attest.
    Much truth in this. Riding those stones for a quarter of that race is good reason for a more compliant fork.
    Too old to ride plastic

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Racing on Medieval cobblestones is close! Hinault and LeMond considered P-R sadomasochistic.

    Those paper thin wimpy discs wouldn't hold up hitting the cobblestones at 25 mph. The heavier forks to hold up under disc braking are not as shock absorbent as the rim brake versions. Wheel changes on that brutal course are problematic. Are these brakes now self-centering?

    And look at those chain rings! I'm thinking about putting the 44 t. on this Spring, just for kicks. It was a sweet gear on the flats, and could handle the climbs, with minor adjustments, as well as the 42. 44, 46, are great on the flats, as single speed riders, and those P-R riders will attest.
    That is the most hilarious thing I've read today.

    It is like saying hitting your hand with a composite handled claw hammer hurts less than hitting your hand with an old-hickory handled claw hammer. Hint hint---tire pressure does 10X more for ride comfort than the fork.

    All the problems you are imagining....are only problems you're inventing in your head to justify liking-it-better-the-old-way.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Yes, but as with anything, there is a sweet spot. Read my opening post. What is intrinsically wrong with 12s? All the things I mentioned in my OP. Yes a greater range of overall gearing is created with 12s for the same spacing between shifts, but it comes at a higher cost of more weight, weaker chain, weaker cogs, cogs spaced closer together for greater cross chain sensitivity and opportunity for greater set up error aka cable tension sensitivity for proper indexing. I mentioned for me, I don't need more than 10 cogs in back. A smart rider puts the range of gearing on the bike that covers his needs based upon strength and terrain.. You can have a 34t chainring in front and a 32t cog in back with 10 cogs in back which will allow an average rider to get up very steep hills. Not enough? Put a triple in front with 22t granny gear. 10s in back is plenty. More is marketing. I own both 10 and 11s.

    So I believe 12s with Campy is overreach with a clear downside.
    None of these points are new; the same issues could have been argued when the jump was made from 6-speed to 7-speed or 9-speed to 10 speed. Maybe we passed the "sweet spot" back at 8-speed? Maybe the sweet spot is at 12-speed, 13-speed, or 15-speed?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Maybe the sweet spot is at 12-speed, 13-speed, or 15-speed?
    The sweet spot don't matter without the legs.
    Too old to ride plastic

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    None of these points are new; the same issues could have been argued when the jump was made from 6-speed to 7-speed or 9-speed to 10 speed. Maybe we passed the "sweet spot" back at 8-speed? Maybe the sweet spot is at 12-speed, 13-speed, or 15-speed?
    A pop quiz for you tc. Why didn't Campy go straight to 13 speed?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    That is the most hilarious thing I've read today.

    It is like saying hitting your hand with a composite handled claw hammer hurts less than hitting your hand with an old-hickory handled claw hammer. Hint hint---tire pressure does 10X more for ride comfort than the fork.

    All the problems you are imagining....are only problems you're inventing in your head to justify liking-it-better-the-old-way.
    Actually Marc, there is some truth to losing an increment of compliancy by having disc brakes because the front fork and rear chainstay does have to be stiffer to control braking forces closer to the axle with disc brakes.

    But, it is likely not huge as you suggest.

    Speaking of disc brakes in the Roubaix race, anybody know how many teams fronted disc brakes in the race?

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    A pop quiz for you tc. Why didn't Campy go straight to 13 speed?
    I have no idea. Why didn't Shimano go from 6-speed directly to 10-speed? Why didn't Campy or Shimano sell compact chainrings in the 70s? Why didn't the original StumpJumper use tubeless tires?

  12. #62
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    frame spacing and freehub spacing would need to change for 13.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    frame spacing and freehub spacing would need to change for 13.
    He's alive. Didn't think you had it in ya ff. And to help a bit, deeper wheel dish depending on drop out spacing weakens overall wheel integrity.

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  14. #64
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    Moderator's Note

    For the love of puppies. Posting vacations inbound, from your friendly neighborhood "weak ass mods"
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Good on Campy for releasing 12s for dumbsh!t factory feel, Campy's target demo. He's the man for the job as a worthy clueless bottom feeder...lol.

    And what do you believe the tradeoffs are factory feel for Campy 12s? Why didn't they go straight to 13 or 14 speed if more is better?
    Uhhhh, duuhhhh, weeell....its got gears doesn't it? What color is it?
    Enjoy the time off, and this final warning.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    Shame on you Campy for not checking with internet Windbag 11sp before innovating.
    You too.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  17. #67
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    Wow. 11spd = Roadworthy = banned. Lol.

    Also freehub aka highdraw in another forum.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    This thread is really an addendum to excellent conversation resulting from the lack of benefit of recent tech advances as discussed in Belgianhammer’s thread exposing how pro riders aren’t using much of the modern tech being pushed by large companies like Specialized in the Paris Roubaix race. Within that thread a poster adroitly pointed out why companies have to so called innovate, to create a ‘different’ but not necessarily better mousetrap to set themselves apart from the competition in an effort to create a market and therefore demand to sell product and generate higher profit. That is the reality and in particular the new Roubaix bicycle showcases what is wrong with that equation as many have complained about the noisy Future Shock and having buyer’s remorse. Of course, all too many have been there with aerobikes riding rough, press fit bottom brackets creakiing and god awful integratedstem/handlebar bikes where cable routing goes through the stem. A long list of failure for so called marketing ‘exclusivity’... the customer pays for in terms of increased maintenance and/or performance tradeoffs.

    Here comes Campy with 12 speed:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campagnolo-12-speed-record-and-super-record-groups-launch/

    https://youtu.be/coRDA1xpeMU

    Now I am a Campy mechanical guy. That is my groupset of choice. Just want to say, I have both a 10s and 11s Campy bike. I notice virtually no difference between 10s and 11s while out riding. None. I don’t need not only broader gearing or tighter gearing.
    I like many here have owned 8s and 9s bikes…both on and off road. I never felt any longing for more gearing then either. Was pretty happy with each. But when owning the next evolution aka one more cog in back, once I hit 10s, I never longed for more in back and owning and riding both Campy and DA 9000 11s, I never felt 11s was an improvement.
    I will say further, look how Campy has executed their new 12s. They did it with the same real estate freehub in back. One more cog crammed in back resulting in less space between cogs and thinner cogs and thinner chain.

    This does four things:

    a. A smaller chain typically reduces durability due to higher force per unit area.
    b. Thinner cogs are weaker due to reduced strength which suffer the same lack of wear resistance
    c. Less space between cogs for same cassette width translates to greater sensitivity to cross chaining because of tendency of chain to rub on adjacent cogs based upon reduced space.
    d. Set up is more sensitive by design with smaller space between more cogs based upon cable pull. Error is compounded based upon the rear derailleur traveling the same overall distance with more stops along the way.

    In summary, you are going to pay more for this so called ‘innovation’for less durability and possibly lower performance and/or set up sensitivity. I don’t want it. I could have easily converted my 10s Campy bike to 11s for example by simply changing the RH shifter body with different no. detents and pull ratio, a different cassette and different chain. A low cost transition. Never felt the need. I don’t believe 11s is better than 10s. I don’t fight 11s much but to me, its completely unnecessary. I feel even more strongly about 12s because the tradeoffs are even more profound for each added cog in back without changing freehub width resulting in need to increase frame dropout spacing.

    My take. Will others follow? Inevitably. No stopping the mad march into oblivion. Same dynamic as with previous cog increases. In design parlence which has been a bitter lesson repeated too often...from outboard bearing BSA to one of many press fit variants of bottom bracket out there…there is no free lunch. Pick your poison carefully and drink responsibly.
    These the same lame conversations we had with 8-9-10-and 11 speed groupos.
    It seems that every flatlander in the country assumes that every other rider in the world rides in the same environment.

    Those who are not full time dopers but do a lot of serious climbing recognize the benefit that 11 speed had in filling the gaps and providing gearing that would allow keeping cadence up on extremely long 10% or steeper climbs. It allowed good ratios on the high end as well (comes in handy on fast descents). The thing that is missing with 11 speed is the mid range 15-18 tooth range where you will always have one large (2 tooth) jump.

    Further, using paris-roubaix bikes as a model of what riding equipment should be is absurd (except for flat landers). If you took out the cobbles, it would be just another place where old people go to ride with their parents. Five speed bikes with coaster brakes would work just fine.
    Last edited by SwiftSolo; 04-14-2018 at 03:11 PM.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    I have no idea. Why didn't Shimano go from 6-speed directly to 10-speed? Why didn't Campy or Shimano sell compact chainrings in the 70s? Why didn't the original StumpJumper use tubeless tires?
    You are exactly right. Ford should have gone directly from the 1929 model T to the 2018 ford explorer in 1930. It's all one giant conspiracy by those corporate bass turds.

    And don't forget that Alexander Bell screwed everybody by not coming out with the i-phone ten the year after he came out with the telephone.

    It's a good thing our educators are exposing these greedy sunz-a-bit-chas for what they are.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    You are exactly right. Ford should have gone directly from the 1929 model T to the 2018 ford explorer in 1930.
    Well at least they should have bypassed the Pinto and Fairmont.
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  21. #71
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    Just another confirmation that single speed is dead. Too bad, I really appreciated its resurgence making odd chain ring sizes available again.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    That is the most hilarious thing I've read today.

    It is like saying hitting your hand with a composite handled claw hammer hurts less than hitting your hand with an old-hickory handled claw hammer. Hint hint---tire pressure does 10X more for ride comfort than the fork.

    All the problems you are imagining....are only problems you're inventing in your head to justify liking-it-better-the-old-way.
    https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/jra-...-still-matter/
    Too old to ride plastic

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