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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    I climb quite a bit and consider myself reasonably good at it. The "trick" is to climb often., vary the climbs and engage don't be so quick to use the easiest gear. The best way to make a hill feel easy is to ride climb a more difficult one. Unlike descending there's no skill involved, its just putting in the time.
    There is some skill involved. Pacing yourself is a skill. Some people are terrible at it. Knowing your limits and staying on the edge of them is a skill.
    As is picking the right gears. Are you a spinner or a masher.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    There is some skill involved. Pacing yourself is a skill. Some people are terrible at it. Knowing your limits and staying on the edge of them is a skill.
    As is picking the right gears. Are you a spinner or a masher.
    Skill may be over-stating it, but I agree there are some things one learns over time. Not sure I would categorizing pacing oneself as a skill, but the point is taken.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Variety is fine if you want to be a well rounded human. But in regards to the OP... "how to improve climbing", swimming is irrelevant.
    It's like if you want to eat soup and say the spoon is irrelevant.

    Well, it is, but at the same time, it's not.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogus View Post
    Doesn't "loosing" weight just make it jiggle a lot more?
    Must be jelly cause jam don't shake like that.
    Too old to ride plastic

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by toki View Post
    It's like if you want to eat soup and say the spoon is irrelevant.

    Well, it is, but at the same time, it's not.
    Eating soup is way easier without a spoon.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    You're about 50lbs heavier than pro racers of your height.
    And that translates directly to speed when climbing. At equal power, that's about 5 mph faster for the pro than for the OP. And the pro undoubtedly has more power.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    ..... engage don't be so quick to use the easiest gear. The best way to make a hill feel easy is to ride climb a more difficult one.

    Only if you can keep a reasonable cadence. Otherwise, you will wreck your knees.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    There is some skill involved. Pacing yourself is a skill. Some people are terrible at it. Knowing your limits and staying on the edge of them is a skill.
    As is picking the right gears. Are you a spinner or a masher.
    This. You will last longer spinning than mashing.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    I climb quite a bit and consider myself reasonably good at it. The "trick" is to climb often., vary the climbs and engage don't be so quick to use the easiest gear. The best way to make a hill feel easy is to ride climb a more difficult one. Unlike descending there's no skill involved, its just putting in the time.
    I disagree here. There is a skill to reading the climb - to knowing when to put in extra effort and when to save energy. Back when I was a measly Cat4 I could climb with the Cat2 riders because I loved to do it and I learned various tricks that helped me get up long climbs quickly. Now I no longer care to go fast uphill, but I still prefer to do it in the most efficient manner possible.

    I do agree that to learn that skill it takes a lot of climbing - the experience of doing it is the only way that you can learn how best to gauge your effort.
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    I disagree here. There is a skill to reading the climb - to knowing when to put in extra effort and when to save energy. Back when I was a measly Cat4 I could climb with the Cat2 riders because I loved to do it and I learned various tricks that helped me get up long climbs quickly.
    If I only had a dollar for everyone who's blown by me at the beginning of a hill, thinking they have to attack it hard. As I slow and steady climb then kick it up at the top and pass them... barely turning over their crank.
    Definitely a skill they need to learn.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    I disagree here. There is a skill to reading the climb - to knowing when to put in extra effort and when to save energy. Back when I was a measly Cat4 I could climb with the Cat2 riders because I loved to do it and I learned various tricks that helped me get up long climbs quickly. Now I no longer care to go fast uphill, but I still prefer to do it in the most efficient manner possible.

    I do agree that to learn that skill it takes a lot of climbing - the experience of doing it is the only way that you can learn how best to gauge your effort.
    Like I said I'm not disagreeing with any of this. I just don't rate this knowledge as a skill. one of the definitions of skill is , "dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical task". If one buys into that definition the knowledge of knowing how to conserve one's energy doesn't quite elevate to what a skill is. It is knowledge though, I grant you that.

  12. #62
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    Like I said I'm not disagreeing with any of this. I just don't rate this knowledge as a skill. one of the definitions of skill is , "dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical task". If one buys into that definition the knowledge of knowing how to conserve one's energy doesn't quite elevate to what a skill is.
    Instead of parsing definitions, why not just stick with the main definition?

    skill
    [skil]
    noun
    1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well:
    Carpentry was one of his many skills.

    It takes learned knowledge and practice to learn to pace yourself on hills. That's a skill.
    It also takes learned knowledge and practice to be a carpenter. You don't just wake up one day and be good at carpentry. That's a learned skill.

    It is knowledge though, I grant you that.
    And by definition, skill comes from knowledge.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    If I only had a dollar for everyone who's blown by me at the beginning of a hill, thinking they have to attack it hard. As I slow and steady climb then kick it up at the top and pass them... barely turning over their crank.
    Definitely a skill they need to learn.

    It's amazing how many people have pedaled hard passing me on the downhill thinking they could build enough momentum to beat me up the next hill. Guess what? I usually toast them half way up the hill.

    The key is to coast or soft pedal the downhill and save that energy for the next uphill.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    And that translates directly to speed when climbing. At equal power, that's about 5 mph faster for the pro than for the OP. And the pro undoubtedly has more power.
    I got to see first hand the painful reality of ^that^... I was side by side with a pro on a training ride. We were on a long moderate climb. I asked him "what's your power output right now?" He glanced down and said "(393, 401, 388...) I looked down at my computer and saw 525, 518... I was putting out over 500 watts to ride beside a guy putting out under 400 watts... knowing he could put out more than I could - despite being 25% lighter.

    That whole math and physics thing can be a *****. ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    It could be that this person has a life that goes beyond cycling. Telling a new rider that 1800 miles in 10 months is "nothing" is total drivel. Telling him/her that doing more climbing is not a way to improve climbing is well, stupid (oh, I left out "period" because it is always preceded by a statement pulled from ones' ass).

    Anything this rider does that provides quantifiable results is unlikely to lead to burnout. A structured riding regimen may be the exception this early in his riding. I'm just speculating, but, I'm thinking he does not see the podium on the Champs Elysees in his near future.
    What level of reading comprehension are you at??? Because you clearly didn't understand any of my post. I assume from all the criticisms that you have given to other posters that you must clearly be a certified coach. A cycling genius If the OP in his first year did only 1800 miles then that is indeed nothing.... because as anyone knows in cycling, you have nowhere else to go but up. All I read up to the point when I posted was everyone telling the OP, yeah do more hills, lots & lots of hills. Do hill intervals. More hills the better.

    That is such a narrow minded point of view especially for someone that is just starting to get into this sport. Ask any certified cycling coach for their opinions on this & then re-read my post. For a novice cyclist, it is my belief that the person would be better suited to become a better cyclist overall. Losing weight by riding more structured rides with others & improved diet as I originally stated will help him lose weight & ultimately will help lower his climbing time as a collateral benefit.

    No one has mentioned base mileage, aerobic vs anaerobic & workout structure or duration. Everyone is just saying do lots of hills, hill sprints over & over. There are a lot of trolls here that love giving intentional bad advice. Even if the OP didn't use a coach as I mentioned, he still has the option of joining a club as I suggested. No club will do more than 2 rides a week with consecutive intensive climbing involved unless you live in an area that is all hills. Who wants to join a club where all you do is climb all the time??? No one even bothers to mention recovery or rest when they advocate all these hill repeats. Why is that?? Unless you're doped up to the gills, no one is training like what is being suggested here & let's be honest cuz what I'm hearing here is total BS.

    More importantly without the proper base mileage, a rider that starts doing hill intervals & sprints as suggested by so many here risks getting injured. If you think I'm wrong on this, then I suggest you read Lemond's book with regards to this. If you are really an expert in exercise physiology then you will know that as others have mentioned that power to weight is key here for the OP. But what type of cycling will help him lose weight faster?? It's been proven that running will gain the greatest weight loss.

    What type of cycling though will offer the greatest weight loss benefit?? Will doing lots of hill repeats as so many here have suggested help him lose more weight??? All this research has been done & readily available & I can tell you that doing a routine of hill repeats alone will not lead to greater weight loss vs other cycling programs. To just do one thing over & over is narrow approach which is why I gave my opinion of a broader, more balanced approach. Clubs have a structured ride program for a reason. They want the riders to enjoy the different rides available but also to help them improve in all areas. I'm here because I want to help others learn & be better riders overall & not just sit on the side lines criticizing others for your own benefit without helping anyone at all.

  16. #66
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    All I read up to the point when I posted was everyone telling the OP, yeah do more hills, lots & lots of hills. Do hill intervals. More hills the better.
    You're reading WAY more into what people are saying.

    What type of cycling though will offer the greatest weight loss benefit??
    None. Greatest weight loss benefit is through diet.

    Will doing lots of hill repeats as so many here have suggested help him lose more weight???
    You're clearly not paying attention because no one has claimed hill repeats would help someone lose weight.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    I disagree here. There is a skill to reading the climb - to knowing when to put in extra effort and when to save energy. Back when I was a measly Cat4 I could climb with the Cat2 riders because I loved to do it and I learned various tricks that helped me get up long climbs quickly. Now I no longer care to go fast uphill, but I still prefer to do it in the most efficient manner possible.

    I do agree that to learn that skill it takes a lot of climbing - the experience of doing it is the only way that you can learn how best to gauge your effort.
    we don't teach common sense here. this is a cycling forum.
    "That pretty much sums it up. I'm 43 and my max is ~178-180. If that HR chart was mine or Froome's, we'd be on the verge of death. But for you it probably looks like a normal workout." -TLG

    LOLOLOL

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    None. Greatest weight loss benefit is through diet.
    No, it's a combination of diet and exercise.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    You're clearly not paying attention because no one has claimed hill repeats would help someone lose weight.
    It's not rocket science. It's as simple math as a bank account. Your withdrawals have to be greater than your deposits - caloric output > caloric intake. Otherwise, you will not lose weight, period.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  19. #69
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    climbing a hill , a long one, is about two attributes endurance and power. one is cardio, the other force). you need to train to improve in both and the work is different. the longer the climb the more endurance plays a role, but if we're talking short and steep power is the dominant force.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Why would you post this kind of total crap for a person looking for honest advice? Those will never be suitable gears for an overweight new rider looking to become a better climber.
    How come you skipped the part where I wrote, "You: Target your weight to be at or below 125lbs?" If you're 125lbs you can climb almost any grade with a 36/23t or 25t.

    I was 125lbs once.... back in middle school.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    Also... don't angle your saddle down per Keoki. Keep it level unless a very good fitter tells you otherwise.
    Why not?? Ever since the UCI relaxed this rule this year, almost all of the pros are doing this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoki View Post
    Why not?? Ever since the UCI relaxed this rule this year, almost all of the pros are doing this.
    Well for starters "the pros are doing this" generally doesn't apply to hacks on an internet forum regarding anything.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoki View Post
    almost all of the pros are doing this.
    The OP has a grand total of 1 year and 1,800 miles on the bike. Doing what "almost all of the pros"are doing is not, on its own, responsible advice. Those pros also ride frames 2 and 3 sizes too small, have saddle to bar drops over 8"... more things a new (95% of riders) should not do.

    Angling the saddle down, even a little, impacts where the rider is on the bike - it will rotate the hips, transfer more weight forward, can result in the rider moving forward on the saddle, etc.

    The pros do it because of that extreme saddle to bar drop - to allow the pelvis to assume a more natural position in response to that bike setup and the aero position the rider will be in. Again... they're pros.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Well for starters "the pros are doing this" generally doesn't apply to hacks on an internet forum regarding anything.
    "The pros are doing this" doesn't apply to must of us - hacks or not.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    "The pros are doing this" doesn't apply to must of us - hacks or not.
    We're all hacks relative to UCI pros. 'Or not' does not apply here.

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