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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    I don't see the 'value' of $500 disc brakes, $1500 carbon wheels or $2500 electric groupset.
    its weird that disc brakes continue to cost so much for road bikes today. That should really change but I guess MFRs can try to cash in as the market bears it

    in MTB, disc brakes have become standard for 15 years now, and they have been generally well ironed-out, simple and cheap. Yes cheap, as cheap as rim brakes. I just ordered a set of Shimano XT brakes which I consider essentially the best disc brake made, a flawless brake, and the set was only $140 brand new, front and rear.
    https://www.ebay.ca/itm/232801738277 Levers, hose, calipers, pre-bled and will take me 5-10 minutes to swap onto my new MTB. Oh and the XT brakes I put on my other MTBs have only needed new pads once every year or two - zero maintenance.

    Can't even buy a pair of Shimano 105 cable-only brifters for a road bike for $140. let alone Ultegra hydro-brifters+calipers. insanity. Giant has tried to solve this overpricing problem with their road bike cable-hydraulic interface (branded Conduct), but that still adds a fair amt to the price and weight of a bike (they sell the interface unit for $200).
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 1 Week Ago at 10:04 AM.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    .....in MTB, disc brakes have become standard for 15 years now........
    More like about 10 years. V-brakes were still pretty standard on mountain bikes 15 years ago.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  3. #78
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    hmm I put my first disc brake on my mtbn bike in 1999. and we bought a pair of rocky mtn bikes with hydro discs in 2001, while everyone riding with us in Vancouver also had hydro discs by them. and I bought a lower end mtn bike in 07, with cable discs. But I stopped cycling from about 2005-2012, so didn't really pay attention to the switch over. However I knew in 1999 hydro discs absolutely transformed the mtn bike experience in technical terrain and would take over for sure.

    I also get the idea that discs do not at all 'transform' the road riding experience. It's a more incremental change, albeit one that I think is worthwhile .. when it becomes cheap to do so!
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:43 PM.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    More like about 10 years. V-brakes were still pretty standard on mountain bikes 15 years ago.
    when I first got into mtb scene around 2005, hydro discs were already well established in mtb. There was a unanimous, universal, agreement that disc was the better tech for mtb.

    I don't see that sense of universal agreement in the roadie world today with regard to disc though.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    when I first got into mtb scene around 2005, hydro discs were already well established in mtb. There was a unanimous, universal, agreement that disc was the better tech for mtb.

    I don't see that sense of universal agreement in the roadie world today with regard to disc though.
    Yep. When I bought my bike in 2006, rim brakes were still prominent, but most definitely on the way out.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    when I first got into mtb scene around 2005, hydro discs were already well established in mtb. There was a unanimous, universal, agreement that disc was the better tech for mtb.

    I don't see that sense of universal agreement in the roadie world today with regard to disc though.
    Probably because they don't make as noticeable a difference for the average road rider. Your post made me think of way back in the 80's when the first front shocks came out in the mountain scene. Talk about transforming the mountain bike performance! Very noticeable and almost universally necessary if you were interested in performance. You still don't see road bikes with front shocks because they aren't necessary and overall would probably hurt performance. I see road disc sorta in the same situation. I could be wrong but, an interesting comparison I thought I'd share.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    its weird that disc brakes continue to cost so much for road bikes today. That should really change but I guess MFRs can try to cash in as the market bears it

    in MTB, disc brakes have become standard for 15 years now, and they have been generally well ironed-out, simple and cheap. Yes cheap, as cheap as rim brakes. I just ordered a set of Shimano XT brakes which I consider essentially the best disc brake made, a flawless brake, and the set was only $140 brand new, front and rear. Levers, hose, calipers, pre-bled and will take me 5-10 minutes to swap onto my new MTB. Oh and the XT brakes I put on my other MTBs have only needed new pads once every year or two - zero maintenance.

    Can't even buy a pair of Shimano 105 cable-only brifters for a road bike for $140. let alone Ultegra hydro-brifters+calipers. insanity. Giant has tried to solve this overpricing problem with their road bike cable-hydraulic interface (branded Conduct), but that still adds a fair amt to the price and weight of a bike (they sell the interface unit for $200).
    Keep in mind that mountain bike brake levers do not perform double duty as shift levers the way they do with Shimano road setups. This is a more complicated device to make, though whether it is several hundred dollars more complicated I cannot say.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    Keep in mind that mountain bike brake levers do not perform double duty as shift levers the way they do with Shimano road setups. This is a more complicated device to make, though whether it is several hundred dollars more complicated I cannot say.
    Shimano used to make an XTR ST-M966 dual control mountain bike lever.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_fuji View Post
    Yep. When I bought my bike in 2006, rim brakes were still prominent, but most definitely on the way out.
    On the way out? Its 2018 or 12 years later. Most of my friends still ride rim brakes. Watch the TdF in less than week. Majority of the peloton will still be on rim brakes. If one doesn't need disc brakes, why incur the expense is the point. I don't want the expense of electric shifting either. Some don't want the expense of a carbon frame either. Discs maybe become prevalent or even the majority. But rim brakes aren't going away any time soon because the are a lower cost option for braking for many that prefer them to disc brakes for the type of riding they do. Some guys don't want gears on a bike. They prefer a fixed gear. Fixed gear bikes aren't on their way out either FWIW.

  10. #85
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    he means in 2006 rim brakes were well on their way out on mountain bikes
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    disc brakes is easy maintenance??
    is that why Mtbr site has a whole subforum dedicated to disc brakes? riiighttt.... gotcha
    I've worked on many wire disc brakes but never dealt with hydraulic, so went by comments in another forum. Tell me it ain't true!

    I too am a Luddite still riding slotted cleats, toe clips and straps, and down tube shifters, on a lugged steel frame fully Campy equipped, original Super Record, and it still looks pretty. Oh yeah, and 36 fully adjustable spokes on fully replaceable aluminum rims.

    There's definitely elegance in simplicity, particularly with a bike. Sometimes I think of riding as a return to evolutionary roots as a bird in flight. When the heart rate settles at 122 bpm, everything clicks in and starts working in unison. The hunting instinct takes over. Guys are practicing that on the MUTs every weekend. Its so basic, its inevitable.

    Bikes are like weapons, an extension of the body producing forward speed. Rider cleans his bike like a weapon. Everything has to work exquisitely or the experience "isn't winning well."

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    You still don't see road bikes with front shocks because they aren't necessary and overall would probably hurt performance.
    Back in the early 2000s, Cannondale came out with a road bike called "Silk Road". It had a short travel front mono shock - their Headshok which as shocks go, was a great design. The Silk Road didn't last very long which I presume was because road cyclists weren't willing to trade off extra weight for comfort.

    The Headshok continued to be popular on Cannondale's hybrid and mountain bikes until they came out with their Lefty shock.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Back in the early 2000s, Cannondale came out with a road bike called "Silk Road". It had a short travel front mono shock - their Headshok which as shocks go, was a great design. The Silk Road didn't last very long which I presume was because road cyclists weren't willing to trade off extra weight for comfort.

    The Headshok continued to be popular on Cannondale's hybrid and mountain bikes until they came out with their Lefty shock.
    Rock Shox before then

    Did Gravel do what disc's haven't been able to ?-rockshox.jpg
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  14. #89
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    The newest and fastest aero road bike needed disc brakes to be as aero as possible.
    https://youtu.be/y-GhJ3zIPCw

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    The newest and fastest aero road bike needed disc brakes to be as aero as possible.
    https://youtu.be/y-GhJ3zIPCw
    What I found (for me) was yeah riding by myself on non-technical roads (up down or level) aero bikes are fine. Where I felt they suffered was in a tight peloton on punchy terrain. Getting over there right now to follow a wheel seemed so much different on an aero bike compared to a traditional road frame. Overall I just felt like whatever energy the frame was saving aero wise I was losing way more by being out of position. So much so I sold gave up the aero frame for the traditional road frame. Not saying I'm right more JMO. Have not heard anyone else say the same so it could just be me...

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    The newest and fastest aero road bike needed disc brakes to be as aero as possible.
    https://youtu.be/y-GhJ3zIPCw
    You would think that if disc brakes can slice through flesh so easily they would slice through the wind just as well

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    You would think that if disc brakes can slice through flesh so easily they would slice through the wind just as well
    You mean they don't?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    What I found (for me) was yeah riding by myself on non-technical roads (up down or level) aero bikes are fine. Where I felt they suffered was in a tight peloton on punchy terrain. Getting over there right now to follow a wheel seemed so much different on an aero bike compared to a traditional road frame. Overall I just felt like whatever energy the frame was saving aero wise I was losing way more by being out of position. So much so I sold gave up the aero frame for the traditional road frame. Not saying I'm right more JMO. Have not heard anyone else say the same so it could just be me...
    It is definitely a different fit which wont be for everyone and the handling usually isn't as sharp on an aero bike. I mostly ride alone but have no issues riding in a group on my Transonic. Of course bringing a TT or Tri bike to a group ride deserves being ejected from the group before the ride even starts.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    It is definitely a different fit which wont be for everyone and the handling usually isn't as sharp on an aero bike. I mostly ride alone but have no issues riding in a group on my Transonic. Of course bringing a TT or Tri bike to a group ride deserves being ejected from the group before the ride even starts.
    Just to be clear I'm talking aero road frame not a TT or Tri frame. The aero frame I owned was set up identical to my regular road frame.

  20. #95
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    Sounds like that particular aero frame just isn't stiff enough? That's the only thing I can get out of losing energy on high watt outputs and not sharp handling.

    Not all aero frames are like that. My 1st gen Foil isn't, that frame is stiff as concrete and light..too stiff. Keeping weight and stiffness within tight percentage of Addict's was a part of their design goals.

    When it comes to group rides, I'll grab the Foil over my nicer riding alu frame every time unless it's gonna be a chillax roll or B pace lol.
    Last edited by zephxiii; 1 Week Ago at 06:20 AM.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephxiii View Post
    Sounds like that particular aero frame just isn't stiff enough? That's the only thing I can get out of losing energy on high watt outputs and not sharp handling.

    Not all aero frames are like that. My 1st gen Foil isn't, that frame is stiff as concrete and light..too stiff. Keeping weight and stiffness within tight percentage of Addict's was a part of their design goals.

    When it comes to group rides, I'll grab the Foil over my nicer riding alu frame every time unless it's gonna be a chillax roll or B pace lol.
    Maybe too stiff but, subjectively my Factor feels stiffer (too stiff for me) yet it's the most nimble well handling frame I've owned to date. I hate to say it but, the absolute best frame (aero, comfort, handling, etc...) I've owned was the new Foil. I had a 2016 Foil 10 and I think it did nearly everything the Factor does but, way more comfortable. I have a 2017 Factor O2 and have heard they softened up the 2018's. Not sure if true but, it would almost be worth the hassle of selling my frame set and buying the newer version. Anyways, I've learned bikes can easily be too stiff and there are so many other characteristics about a bike that I desire prior to stiffness.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    Maybe too stiff but, subjectively my Factor feels stiffer (too stiff for me) yet it's the most nimble well handling frame I've owned to date. I hate to say it but, the absolute best frame (aero, comfort, handling, etc...) I've owned was the new Foil. I had a 2016 Foil 10 and I think it did nearly everything the Factor does but, way more comfortable. I have a 2017 Factor O2 and have heard they softened up the 2018's. Not sure if true but, it would almost be worth the hassle of selling my frame set and buying the newer version. Anyways, I've learned bikes can easily be too stiff and there are so many other characteristics about a bike that I desire prior to stiffness.
    Dang that makes me want new Foil even more LOL. Maybe next year...

    lol rode the Foil couple of days ago and though awww wasn't that bad at all really! I guess I think it's worse than it actually is. Should prob just get better bars and tape.

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