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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hfc View Post
    My guess is ebikes are bought more frequently by commuters or business use type person in a country like China. My hope is that one would be bought instead of a motor scooter, so a win for the environment.
    I'm in US and used to commute on one of these.
    eBikes now outselling all the rest of the bicycles. wow-e100-glow_product-400x523.jpg
    Worked out well since I'm not sweaty by the time I got in the office and no need to wear cycling shoes or chamois. Then the county decided to outlaw all scooters because the kids are getting into accidents. Yeah, instead requiring driver's license or some sort of measure to prohibit kids from riding, they outlawed it on everyone. I had to sell mine.

  2. #27
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    I live and work near Microsoft's main campuses in Redmond, WA. I ride my bike up same hill (520 bike trail) as the "Softies" on my way to work when I commute. By my unofficial count last summer, more than half of the bikes riding up that hill every morning had electric assist. Once the price comes down, batteries get better, and the motors, and engineering get better (i.e. bikes get lighter and easier to manage) there will a lot more of them yet. They will take over the bike paths and MUT's. It's only a matter of time.

    My plan is to avoid them and get out on the gravel and dirt forest roads as much as possible for my cycling fix.

  3. #28
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    From my personal experience trying to get non-cyclists to cycle (girlfriends, wife), the e-bike concept of getting them to ride with you is just bull$hit and won't last. A cyclists rides frequently to ride further/faster. With a motor that incentive is gone, and the rest just becomes a fad. IMHO this will encourage people to remain fat and out of shape, it really reminds me of WALL-E.



    There are numerous negatives to all this, from the coming push for registration requirements that will probably include all bikes to crashes with 50 lb bikes doing some serious damage, never mind cops pulling over bikes to check for your illegal motor (in my states they aren't legal at all). Old people can still ride a regular bicycle, apparently some 105 year old chain smoking frenchie can still do it just fine... and he's probably alive at 105 because he doesn't have a motor.

    The idea of only having a high end road bike market isn't realistic either. There isn't enough volume in the segment to have manufacturers make components for it, so if e-bikes take over as it seems they will the component selection for regular bikes will definitely shrink.
    Last edited by DrSmile; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:24 AM.
    “Bicycling has done more to emancipate women than anything else in the world.” - Susan B. Anthony 1896
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  4. #29
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    So with ebikes overtaking bicycle sales I assume the number of ebike threads will increase and bicycle threads will decrease. Then the cyclists will stop logging in and the world moves on. Anyway I am going to keep riding my regular bicycle and leave the ebike thing to you folks. Enjoy your scooter and remember it is polite to say "on your left".

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmile View Post
    With a motor that incentive is gone, and the rest just becomes a fad.
    Fad, by nature, it comes and goes. By being not permanent, what's there to worry?

    IMHO this will encourage people to remain fat and out of shape, it really reminds me of WALL-E.
    Likely the USA problem. It's got more to do with bad diet than lack of exercise.

  6. #31
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    I currently own 4 bikes, Full carbon race bike, FS mountain bike, Hardtail mt bike and an E-bike commuter that I paid 2k for. I live in Tucson and we don't get much rain. Work is 10 miles away with a nasty hill coming and going. Sometimes I take the race bike most times I take the E-bike.. Really because I don't have a shower at work and baby wipes get old.. On the E-bike i really don't sweat at all and guess what I am still riding a bike. Mine is power assist. Does it replace any of my other bikes? No it does not... When I am training, racing or doing fast group rides I am on the Carbon. So yes there is a place for E-bikes..

  7. #32
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    Where I ride there are a few recreational riders with e assist bikes. They use them so they can continue to het outdoors with friends and continue to enjoy a sport they were previously able to partake in when healthier. More power to them.
    I'm 66 years old with multiple artificial joints and a spine held together with numerous rods, screws, plates and cages. When, not if, it becomes necessary for me to have e assist on order to continue riding there will be no hesitation. I ride in the Sierra foothills and coastal range of northern California.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    A more realistic way to think of them, in these parts....they're "those" riders marauding down the "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" paths at 25MPH.

    Why?


    Because the roads, where motorized vehicles belong, are suicide unless you have a 4000LB steel roll cage....so naturally those same homicidal drivers take their mopeds on the bike paths that are not supposed to have mopeds (or scooters) on them at all.
    That's exactly the situation in the DC area. We have this great network of bike paths that go into the city from the suburbs. They aren't part of the roads. And motorized vehicles are supposedly banned. I see more and more of these things lately. Typically ridden by younger people who certainly look fit enough to ride a regular bike. I can see the appeal -- out public transportation system -- the metro -- is unreliable, traffic is terrible, and even if you do drive, where do you park? So for a couple thousand bucks, you can buy an e-bike and get to work pretty fast without breaking a sweat.

    At first I thought they were kind of cool. Then it starts getting to the point where there's one buzzing by me every 10 minutes and its not so cool. They're usually going way too fast (25 mph) for the rider's skill set. A collision with one of these things could be fatal -- they must weigh 75 lbs. I worry what the bike path is going to be like when 50% of the bikes on it are electric. I'm guessing it'll be like the roads around here where there's always some jerk tailgating me in his huge SUV.

    I hope it's a fad, but I fear it isn't.

  9. #34
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    I don't think there are many downsides to e-Bikes proliferating. They could potentially allow inexperienced cyclists to go far faster than is safe, endangering other people. That's about it. I do think they should be banned wherever motorized vehicles are banned, because that's what they are: motorized vehicles. I also think they have no business participating in mass start cycling events.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
    I don't think there are many downsides to e-Bikes proliferating. They could potentially allow inexperienced cyclists to go far faster than is safe, endangering other people. That's about it. I do think they should be banned wherever motorized vehicles are banned, because that's what they are: motorized vehicles. I also think they have no business participating in mass start cycling events.
    ebikes typically the motor cuts out over 25kph or 32kph depending on jurisdiction that is the legal limit for the assisted power. Since they are extremely heavy bicycles, it is very difficult to power it higher than that speed once the assist cuts out. While many road riding clubs (enthusiasts, no ebikes) will cruise at 30kph-40kph routinely.

    The 250 w versions commonly found here and in europe feature no more power than a strong road cyclist outputs without any motor.

    I encounter ebikes on the MUT all the time. There is in way a reasonable person could describe them as a hazard any different than a road cyclist. They're typically cruise about the same speed as myself on a non ebike, except maybe faster up hills.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    ...bikes last forever ...
    Batteries don't.
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    Stout beers under trees, please.

  12. #37
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    ebikes typically the motor cuts out over 25kph or 32kph depending on jurisdiction that is the legal limit for the assisted power.
    If your jurisdiction has a limit. And when I commute, I cross three jurisdictions (2 counties and the District of Columbia). And no one polices these things. I see them them travel faster than 32 kph (~ 20 mph) all the time. Just because laws exist doesn't mean they're enforced, or people abide by them.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    ebikes typically the motor cuts out over 25kph or 32kph depending on jurisdiction that is the legal limit for the assisted power. Since they are extremely heavy bicycles, it is very difficult to power it higher than that speed once the assist cuts out. While many road riding clubs (enthusiasts, no ebikes) will cruise at 30kph-40kph routinely.

    The 250 w versions commonly found here and in europe feature no more power than a strong road cyclist outputs without any motor.
    A strong road cyclist can go a heck of a lot faster than 32kph. So one half of what you're saying is wrong.

    All is know is when I rented one in Portugal I would have had not problem cruising around all day at 25mph or more and that was with horrible treaded tires.

    Maybe the motor would kink out at 32kph with no rider power at all but motor plus rider power gets them going pretty darn fast.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    ebikes typically the motor cuts out over 25kph or 32kph depending on jurisdiction that is the legal limit for the assisted power.
    True but easily defeated and an unenforceable regulation.

    The 250 w versions commonly found here and in europe feature no more power than a strong road cyclist outputs without any motor.
    There are lots of far more powerful bikes out there. Amazon is selling generic 1,000 watt bikes for a thousand bucks right now. Also, ebike watt ratings are almost always far underrated:
    The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com

    Also, given that a woman I know zips by my house on her daily commute at 25+ mph uphill in street clothes on her Stromer ST2, there's a ton of power available from an ebike. BTW: that Stromer is pretty cool.

    I encounter ebikes on the MUT all the time. There is in way a reasonable person could describe them as a hazard any different than a road cyclist. They're typically cruise about the same speed as myself on a non ebike, except maybe faster up hills.
    Given the fact that kids in my area seem to have all gotten cheap electric fat bikes last year and blow by me at 23 mph on a gravel MUP hardly pedaling while wearing basketball shorts, I have to say that I've had a different experience.

  15. #40
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
    Given the fact that kids in my area seem to have all gotten cheap electric fat bikes last year and blow by me at 23 mph on a gravel MUP hardly pedaling while wearing basketball shorts, I have to say that I've had a different experience.
    +1.

    I have no problem with them driving on roads with the other motorized vehicles, but they need to stay the hell off the MUT where "motorized vehicles" are banned. I've had guys at the LBS justify it by saying they are pedal assisted. This means you have to turn the crank to make the motor go. Therefore they aren't motorized vehicles.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    +1.

    I have no problem with them driving on roads with the other motorized vehicles, but they need to stay the hell off the MUT where "motorized vehicles" are banned. I've had guys at the LBS justify it by saying they are pedal assisted. This means you have to turn the crank to make the motor go. Therefore they aren't motorized vehicles.
    This is a conventional reasoning error (from Kohlberg's theory of moral development). You're not stating anything deep or substantial about why they should be banned, you're just invoking an arbitrary rule, a conventional rule which is weak and unconvincing, and perhaps unfair and counterproductive imho. Whereas it is precisely this rule which has wisely been reconsidered as too broad given the real world outcomes of ebikes on MUT, especially when compared to the real world benefits of ebikes on the MUT: reduced automobile use, and increased participation in cycling for fun and health.

    Thus the most active cycling cities in the World (I live in one of them, and do not ride an ebike) have wisely decided to allow ebikes on their cycling infrastructure, including on the MUT. It only seems to be the car-focused places with extremely low participation in cycling that we find folks trodding out this silly argument that ebikes are somehow a substantially different risk on the MUT. But these cities watch their accident and injury statistics closely, so it seems the risk from them is sufficiently low to continue classing them with cyclists.
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:23 AM.

  17. #42
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    srhdgjhnbvn cfvxcv

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    This is a conventional reasoning error (from Kohlberg's theory of moral development). You're not stating anything deep or substantial about why they should be banned, you're just invoking an arbitrary rule, a conventional rule which is weak and unconvincing, and perhaps unfair and counterproductive imho.
    OK, got it.
    It only seems to be the car-focused places with extremely low participation in cycling that we find folks trodding out this silly argument that ebikes are somehow a substantially different risk on the MUT.
    Wait, aren't you doing the same thing?

    Whereas it is precisely this rule which has wisely been reconsidered as too broad given the real world outcomes of ebikes on MUT, especially when compared to the real world benefits of ebikes on the MUT: reduced automobile use, and increased participation in cycling for fun and health.
    Possibly. I'll be specific to as to avoid the conventional reasoning error:
    1. Speed governors on ebikes are easily defeated. Ebike speed limits are impossible to enforce.
    2. Ebikes don't require a license. In order to go fast on a conventional bike, you typically need to spend time riding. During that time, you develop skills. Ebikes circumvent this check.
    3. Powerful ebikes are readily available today for low prices. Generic options are proliferating. Soon, 500+ watt bikes will be sold at Walmart
    4. Ebikes are only going to get more powerful. Power increases will likely happen extremely rapidly.
    5. MUTs/MUPs are generally crowded and narrow.
    6. People generally want to go as fast as possible, no matter the mode of transportation.

    Given that, it's reasonable to argue that ebikes don't have a place on MUPs. It's at least possible to have that discussion. Rejecting this idea as a "silly argument" is dismissive. Many people here have lots of cycling experience and know of what they speak. Again, I love the idea of ebikes for many use cases. I'm not anti-ebike. I agree with you that they are a huge positive. I just think these factors need to be thought through.

  19. #44
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    its an arbitrage. rules, licensing and permits are friendlier to e-bikes than they are to mopeds. if the law was indifferent i don't think you'd see much of a market preference one way or the other.

    and i think the e-bikes are a hazzard. where i am at the delivery guys are cruising at 20 mph without effort on the sidewalk and you have people in the bike lanes using them not pedaling, extremely quiet going through red light and stop signs. only a matter of time before some high profile accidents happen. and unlike regular bikes the riders of these vehicles often don't have good cycling skills. i've seen riders try to squeeze in between vehicles only to have the rider stopped at a vehicle and the bike keep going.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    its an arbitrage. rules, licensing and permits are friendlier to e-bikes than they are to mopeds. if the law was indifferent i don't think you'd see much of a market preference one way or the other.

    and i think the e-bikes are a hazzard. where i am at the delivery guys are cruising at 20 mph without effort on the sidewalk and you have people in the bike lanes using them not pedaling, extremely quiet going through red light and stop signs. only a matter of time before some high profile accidents happen. and unlike regular bikes the riders of these vehicles often don't have good cycling skills. i've seen riders try to squeeze in between vehicles only to have the rider stopped at a vehicle and the bike keep going.
    so in effect .. a small percent of the ebikes are riding around behavnig exactly as badly and almost as swiftly moving as the lycra and carbon fibre set (but nowhere near as bad as the singlespeed bike couriers). ban then too! sky is falling. think of the children! zero tolerance. three bikes you're out. More regulation of everything is good regulation. swamp the swamp

    Nope. This roadie snobbery against ebikes is I suspect mostly just old fashioned snobbery. But it calls to mind the ignorants who are often railing against road cyclists for 'not paying road taxes, not being licensed or insured.' The reason they're wrong is because authorities have tried doing just that to road bicyclists .. and it turned out to be a complete unnecessity, waste of resources and a counter productive restriction based on nothing but childish conventional reasoning. Which is what I see when folks and non-cycling-town politicians talk about ebikes.
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:13 PM.

  21. #46
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    where i am it doesn't feel like a small percentage. these bikes are mostly serving the fast food industry by and large, a much smaller number are being used as commuter bikes.

  22. #47
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    End of Story



    If you think they're not going to dominate, you're delusional.

    Today's society is not about hard men, we're soft, people are soft, this fits perfectly.
    use a torque wrench

  23. #48
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    Well I went for an old fashioned bike ride today. Not a single battery on my bike. I did have a blinky light but my 2y/o Grandson snagged it. Since it was $30.00 I think I will go with a battery free cycling lifestyle.

  24. #49
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    I'm glad I'm not much into MTB, I don't see these things being stopped outside of law enforcement. No way to keep them off of your trails. I can see how a traditional MTBer would not like this one bit, but I don't think there's a choice. It's coming fast and hard to trails near you.

    Being a roadie I couldn't care less. Strava KOMs are a joke for many reasons and this will just be one more to add to it. So they really can't piss me off at all, they can do whatever they want and it won't impact me any.

    As for people that ride in the city or congested areas or on MUTs or whatever, it'll be a problem for you for sure. Actually, I might be the only type of cyclist this won't have a negative impact on.
    use a torque wrench

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post

    At first I thought they were kind of cool. Then it starts getting to the point where there's one buzzing by me every 10 minutes and its not so cool. They're usually going way too fast (25 mph) for the rider's skill set. A collision with one of these things could be fatal -- they must weigh 75 lbs. I worry what the bike path is going to be like when 50% of the bikes on it are electric. I'm guessing it'll be like the roads around here where there's always some jerk tailgating me in his huge SUV.

    I hope it's a fad, but I fear it isn't.
    It's great that, considering their speed, you can successfully determine their "skill set"? Would you post a link to this wireless skillometer that you use? Without one, I fear that I'll soon be weaving to avoid dead cyclists and e-bikes.

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