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  1. #1
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  2. #2
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    tell me you did not dig up a dead horse

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    tell me you did not dig up a dead horse
    With all limbs attached. .I detested LA BTW.
    Last edited by Notvintage; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:16 PM.

  4. #4
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    "Mr. Oedipus? Yes, our records indicate you were mistakenly placed in the wrong manger at birth, and Jocasta is not, if fact, your mother. So it's all good if you'd like to pop those eyeballs back in."

    "D'oh!"
    ​Huzzah! I've figured out how to put something in the little box under my posts.

  5. #5
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    That "study" was utterly discredited. It utterly fails at simple methodology. Flawed study methods inevitably lead to laughably flawed conclusions that make for great headlines...especially when people don't actually read the study or the article and know both are FOS.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  6. #6
    Russian Troll Farmer
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    As a person who has actually taken epogen (legally, for a medical condition), I can guarantee you that it does work. I went from being severely anemic to being able to ride a half-century in roughly 2 months.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  7. #7
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    Where's CXWrench? Or does he only jump on people who post tire/wheel questions here?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dir-t View Post
    Where's CXWrench? Or does he only jump on people who post tire/wheel questions here?

    For some reason I imagine CXWrench as Rand Paul's neighbor.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  9. #9
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    i use to care but not anymore. this sums it up for me
    Training and techniques will make you suffer slightly faster up hills, not suffer any less.
    Guy Wilson-Roberts

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    I went from being severely anemic to being able to ride a half-century in roughly 2 months.
    Wait a minute; you were on EPO and it took you TWO MONTHS to ride a half-century? What kind of performance is that?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post
    Wait a minute; you were on EPO and it took you TWO MONTHS to ride a half-century? What kind of performance is that?
    He had to use the bathroom over 200 times in two months so that slowed him down a bit.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    As a person who has actually taken epogen (legally, for a medical condition), I can guarantee you that it does work. I went from being severely anemic to being able to ride a half-century in roughly 2 months.
    Legally of course!

  13. #13
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    Simply put or in summary: Best evidence available as of now is that in the highly trained cyclist and certain other types of elite athletes EPO's effect is negligble. It's rep far, far, exceeds it's real world competitive reputation.

    In the world of performance in sport it is more myth than fact.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalGuy View Post
    Simply put or in summary: Best evidence available as of now is that in the highly trained cyclist and certain other types of elite athletes EPO's effect is negligble. It's rep far, far, exceeds it's real world competitive reputation.

    In the world of performance in sport it is more myth than fact.

    That is a pretty laughable conclusion.....did you read how terribly executed the OP study was? It most certainly does not in any way "prove" what you claim. None of the participants was a pro cyclist. "Healthy but well trained" probably means the participants were not in a training program....then after 8 weeks they sent them racing up Mount Ventoux. The study was otherwise in the the Netherlands, which is pretty much the flattest place on Earth.

    It was a poorly done study.
    Last edited by Marc; 1 Week Ago at 05:43 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The study was the the Netherlands, which is pretty much the flattest place on Earth.
    You have not been to limburg I take it.
    And in any case, whether there are hills or not would be irrelevant.
    Blows your hair back.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by den bakker View Post
    You have not been to limburg I take it.
    And in any case, whether there are hills or not would be irrelevant.

    If you're testing a drug who's point in endurance sport is to supercharge recovery... among a sample-size that don't go balls-to-the-walls enough to really need recovery.....yes it is relevant. Especially when the final exam in the study is a climb up Mt. Ventoux.


    This study is like finding that Neosporin doesn't work....by studying people who were not injured in a manner that needed Neosporin in the first place.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    If you're testing a drug who's point in endurance sport is to supercharge recovery... among a sample-size that don't go balls-to-the-walls enough to really need recovery.....yes it is relevant. Especially when the final exam in the study is a climb up Mt. Ventoux.


    This study is like finding that Neosporin doesn't work....by studying people who were not injured in a manner that needed Neosporin in the first place.
    You'll notice i did not quote any part about sample size. How big does a sample have to be to need recovery?
    Blows your hair back.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by den bakker View Post
    You'll notice i did not quote any part about sample size. How big does a sample have to be to need recovery?

    Size matters...but it isn't the crux of the problem, although larger is better (and this study also had a small sample). It is who the sample is. EPO has been studied by accredited labs like WADA and everyone else for decades, these researchers are aiming to upturn lots of established sports science. If a study on a drug used for 30-straight years to cheat in cycling is going to come and say, "for 30-years people were stupid" to use the stuff.... They'd better:

    A) Have current and/or ex-professional cyclists in the study. Competition winning amateurs too. Both are hard to get (due to-you know using doping knowingly), but them's the breaks.

    B) All participants all need enrolled in an regular coached training program

    C) That program needs targeted towards the "final exam"


    An exercise-recovery drug needs tested like an exercise recovery drug by people in athletic situations were recovery aid is wanted. Couch potatoes shooting EPO probably won't see their blood values change meaningfully either. Most rec cyclists probably won't either--they're not training hard enough or regularly enough to leverage recovery aid. IOW, the study needs to use the drug in a manner it is used to cheat, by people who would resort to it physiologically.

    Why'd I bring up topography? Here in Nebraska we have have rolling (sometimes pan-flat like Zeeland) plains but not proper mountains, not even so much as a Cat 4--you take a juiced Nebraska native-riding cyclist and send them on a race up Mount Ventoux---they'll necessarily do badly compared to anyone who lives in a mountainous area, because there's nothing remotely like Ventoux to train on.

    Also what time of year are the participants on peak form, or verging on overtrained? This study was done beginning of March to mid- April. I'd wager most amateur/recreational cyclists have barely gotten their bikes off the spin-trainer from winter yet. In the Northern hemisphere many are still on their turbo-trainers because the weather is crap.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Size matters...but it isn't the crux of the problem, although larger is better (and this study also had a small sample). It is who the sample is. EPO has been studied by accredited labs like WADA and everyone else for decades, these researchers are aiming to upturn lots of established sports science. If a study on a drug used for 30-straight years to cheat in cycling is going to come and say, "for 30-years people were stupid" to use the stuff.... They'd better:

    A) Have current and/or ex-professional cyclists in the study. Competition winning amateurs too. Both are hard to get (due to-you know using doping knowingly), but them's the breaks.

    B) All participants all need enrolled in an regular coached training program

    C) That program needs targeted towards the "final exam"


    An exercise-recovery drug needs tested like an exercise recovery drug by people in athletic situations were recovery aid is wanted. Couch potatoes shooting EPO probably won't see their blood values change meaningfully either. Most rec cyclists probably won't either--they're not training hard enough or regularly enough to leverage recovery aid. IOW, the study needs to use the drug in a manner it is used to cheat, by people who would resort to it physiologically.

    Why'd I bring up topography? Here in Nebraska we have have rolling (sometimes pan-flat like Zeeland) plains but not proper mountains, not even so much as a Cat 4--you take a juiced Nebraska native-riding cyclist and send them on a race up Mount Ventoux---they'll necessarily do badly compared to anyone who lives in a mountainous area, because there's nothing remotely like Ventoux to train on.

    Also what time of year are the participants on peak form, or verging on overtrained? This study was done beginning of March to mid- April. I'd wager most amateur/recreational cyclists have barely gotten their bikes off the spin-trainer from winter yet. In the Northern hemisphere many are still on their turbo-trainers because the weather is crap.
    There are plenty of problems with the study but the location is not one of them. The wattage is provided which in every case is more relevant than climb times.
    And neither wattage or the climb time of Ventoux suggest that the same was "couch potatoes". Rather it suggests the description "We enrolled healthy, well trained but non-professional male cyclists aged 18–50 years" is more apt.
    Blows your hair back.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    That is a pretty laughable conclusion.....did you read how terribly executed the OP study was? It most certainly does not in any way "prove" what you claim. None of the participants was a pro cyclist. "Healthy but well trained" probably means the participants were not in a training program....then after 8 weeks they sent them racing up Mount Ventoux. The study was otherwise in the the Netherlands, which is pretty much the flattest place on Earth.

    It was a poorly done study.
    No, I hardly glanced at the study. The reason that was so is because lots of other investigative studies going back several years have shown that EPO is/was vastly overrated as I stated. Also although not a currently universally highly studied topic with a general medical or scientific based consensus the shift in the paradigm each year increases to the conclusion I stated: EPO was overrated in the LEVEL of its effectiveness as a performance enhancement substance in elite or highly trained aerobic athletes.

    Last edited by GlobalGuy; 1 Week Ago at 11:43 AM. Reason: typo

  21. #21
    T K
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    EPO? Meh. Deer antler and tiger balls are where it's at.

  22. #22
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    OK, so is OP saying LA should have his wins reinstated? He would have performed the same w/o the EPO, right?

    Personally, I think there must be a significant benefit. The pros wouldn’t go to all that trouble and take all those risks for nothing. I know that’s an “if there’s smoke there’s fire” argument, but I assume these people know their bodies pretty well.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    It was a poorly done study.
    Exactly why I posted it. No way in hell you have tons more red blood cells and aren't aerobically much better than before.

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