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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    My opinion is that transgender women should be allowed to compete as women under the same testosterone limits as cisgender women, as long as they have registered at those levels for at least a year. HRT significantly weakens a MTF during transition. Forcing her to compete with men is showing a significant misunderstanding of what she has gone through to achieve her present status.
    In an article I linked above, an argument is made that 10nm is arbitrary. That argument is made by a trans woman who wants zero requirements for trans women to race with women. In this video, that same trans woman makes the argument that trans women should be able to compete without an arbitrary limitation on their testosterone levels.







    Alternatively, an argument is made in the second article I linked that the 10nm is arbitrary and 3 times as high as a natural woman's levels. Thus it is unfair for a trans women with three times the testosterone to race with natural women.


    ( I do not know enough about testing a person's free test when they are on HRT. But how long between the suppression therapy and the test? I wonder, if the drug is administered 3 days prior to the test, will the results be different than if the drug is administered 25 days prior to the test? Is there a way to cheat the system? )


    IMO, this 10nm limit is akin to the 49.9 hct limit that used to be placed on the men's pro peloton -- a temp fix that was prone to abuse and did not last.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    For cat 2-5 be whatever you want.

    For pro/1, you compete under the gender of your birth.

    Life is not fair. You want to be a pro athlete, then do it on the field you were born with.

    As a male, my Vo2 max is a couple standard deviations above normal and a couple below elite. As a woman, i have elite level Vo2 numbers. Would it be fair to "change" to a woman and compete with them? If it is, then is it fair for me to dope to "level the playing field" for me to compete with other males?

    I toss the BS flag on some of the article. It is not a right to be a pro athlete. You want to change genders. Fine, your right. But, if you exercise that right, you may give up some privileges.
    I am a man.

    Alison Tetrick has raced in my fields multiple times. She's 100% natural born woman. She said that she likes the racing more with the men--it's a better challenge for her and prepares her better for UCI racing. Also, and I hope I am not misrepresenting her, but I don't think she likes kicking around the W1/2/3 ladies.

    If super strong pro women race with men, what's wrong with a super strong trans woman racing with men?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    It is completely possible for a Trans person to fairly participate in sports.
    It may seem fair to the trans person and unfair to their competition. That's the debate. Blanked assertions on what is fair may not be accurate, as the reality is each person utilizes test differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWC View Post
    Again, in the case of Caster Semenya no parts were changed. Her body simply produces more testosterone than normal.

    Eero Mantyranta, a (male) Finnish cross-country skier who won seven Olympic medals in the 1960s, including three golds, was found to have a genetic mutation that increased his hemoglobin level to about 50 percent higher than the average man’s.
    You're comparing natural variation to what is arguably unnatural: transgender.



    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    These are, for lack of a better term, genetic freaks(no insult ), born with this advantage, not going thru any type of life change to get there. I see that as being different to someone who starts in one place and goes thru a life change to be in another place.
    This speaks to what I wrong above: It's not exactly right to compare natural variation to unnatural modification.



    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    If you read any of the links, and quotes, I have posted you would know this.
    One of the links above said that Bearden's results were fair because she won the sprint by just half a second and the field speeds were on average lower. This argument might sway someone who doesn't race. Or a runner.

    But for cyclists, we know that the field often stays together. A sprinter who is doped to the gills can have an unfair advantage, winning by a wheel without changing the speed of the race.

    So looking at average speed of the field and margin of victory is not a good way to judge what is fair.

    And saying, "Sure, the trans woman won the race but she just *barely* won it!" is little consolation to the natural women who lost the race.


    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    What is the average nmol/L of testosterone reading in a born woman? How many born women have a testosterone level higher than 9nmol/L?
    And why shouldn't natural women be able to level the playing field with trans by doping up to 9nm? Again, we are reminded of the 49.9 hct limit of days gone by.

  4. #29
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    Ultimately, why is it so important for the trans women to beat women? What's wrong with trans women getting mediocre results while racing against men? (The majority of racers get mediocre results!)

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    It seems that this thread has been moved from PO. Maybe the best place is General.

  6. #31
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    1) Why this discussion? It's a thing between women and transwomen. I've never heard a male soccer player, track & field athlete, cyclist etc. complain about unfair competition from transmen. Males debating about this problem smells of mansplaining. Let the women and transwomen solve the issue.

    2) It seems that the difference between women and transwomen in this context is arbitrary. In general, the fact that there are transwomen and -men suggests that the difference between men and women is arbitrary. The logical conclusion seems to be: let everybody compete in the same competition and let the best win. Or am I mansplaining now?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    Ultimately, why is it so important for the trans women to beat women? What's wrong with trans women getting mediocre results while racing against men? (The majority of racers get mediocre results!)
    I can't answer that but psychologically people would rather win than not win and given that they have an advantage they do it. This is the same reason why some racers don't want their category bumped up. I think I am with crit_boy on this issue. I have a hard time understating why a very small demographic (less than .5%) expects the world to accommodate them unconditionally as opposed to them adapting to their unique situation. I am not limiting that to just cycling. Maybe that makes me intolerant but there it is.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I can't answer that but psychologically people would rather win than not win and given that they have an advantage they do it. This is the same reason why some racers don't want their category bumped up. I think I am with crit_boy on this issue. I have a hard time understating why a very small demographic (less than .5%) expects the world to accommodate them unconditionally as opposed to them adapting to their unique situation. I am not limiting that to just cycling. Maybe that makes me intolerant but there it is.
    I tend to agree with you.

    The counter argument: “This is bigger than sports and it’s about human rights,” McKinnon says. “By catering to cisgender people’s views, that furthers transgender people’s oppression. When it comes to extending rights to a minority population, why would we ask the majority? I bet a lot of white people were pissed off when we desegregated sports racially and allowed black people. But they had to deal with it.”




    I do not agree with that argument. She's entrenched in the oppressor/oppressed paradigm; she's a legit Marxist. Learn more about trans-athlete McKinnon here.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    I tend to agree with you.

    The counter argument: “This is bigger than sports and it’s about human rights,” McKinnon says. “By catering to cisgender people’s views, that furthers transgender people’s oppression. When it comes to extending rights to a minority population, why would we ask the majority? I bet a lot of white people were pissed off when we desegregated sports racially and allowed black people. But they had to deal with it.”




    I do not agree with that argument. She's entrenched in the oppressor/oppressed paradigm; she's a legit Marxist. Learn more about trans-athlete McKinnon here.
    I dont buy into McKinnon's argument in this case. Its not about discriminating against or oppressing transgender people in the case, its about fairness for all the competitors. I am not sure how to resolve this other than setting limits on hormone levels and such which is basically the approach they are using. Women's racing faces so many obstacles and this situation isn't helping.

  10. #35
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    "( I do not know enough about testing a person's free test when they are on HRT. But how long between the suppression therapy and the test? I wonder, if the drug is administered 3 days prior to the test, will the results be different than if the drug is administered 25 days prior to the test? Is there a way to cheat the system? )"

    The testosterone suppressant most commonly used is Spironolactone, and is taken orally twice daily. Your doctor first issues a generic prescriptive level and then adjusts it according to test results. The maintenance prescription is one that we will take for the rest of our lives if we do not wish to have unwelcome male secondary characteristics to return. This maintenance prescription level is reduced after orchiectomy, as without the testes the body does produce less testosterone. All bodies, make and female, produce testosterone - albeit in different amounts (with a wide variation even within members of the same gender).

    Thus, there is usually no variance in time period between taking the Spironolactone and any test given to check for testosterone levels. It should be the same on any day as the drug is usually taken at breakfast and at the evening meal (you have to take it with food and you don't want to take it too late at night as it causes you to pee more often).

    While I have not competed in decades (quitting decades before starting HRT), I can attest that I have lost general muscle mass and speed on the bike. Personally, I have no desire to compete ever again, but I have respect for those women willing to suffer the slings and arrows from the less accepting in our society. When you have given up so much in order to bring your body into accord with your soul, to be told that you are not what you are and that you have to accept being declared to be what you have left behind is a nasty slap in the face.

    I mean, we have already given up decent wages and many friendships (false friends, apparently, when they can't accept us for who we are) and have to suffer from public ridicule and a higher level of violent assault than our cisgender sisters. It takes a very brave woman to decide to open herself up to the level of hate shown by the public in order to continue a sport she loves.

  11. #36
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    No one is suggesting that a trans person has to give up cycling.

    Even at mid-level amateur level, racing bikes requires sacrifices - time, money, injury, etc. I assume that racing at the elite level requires more sacrifices (opportunity cost concepts). Personally wanting to change genders versus wanting be a professional athlete falls into that sacrifice/opportunity cost category. If it is more important to you to be an elite athlete, then wait until your career is over before undergoing the trans process. On the other hand, if changing gender is more important for you, then the choice is to give up on a professional cycling (weight lifting, running) career.

    The issue of allowing trans to compete in their new gender is in the inherent unknowns.

    One has no idea what level of athlete a trans person would have been if born as that gender. IOW, elite level athletes are genetic outliers. Without the genetic gift, one cannot rise to the elite levels. The inherent unfairness lies in assuming that the trans person would have been able to be an elite level athlete if born into that gender.

    WRT the drugs taken to maintain lower levels of male hormones - To me that screams of easy to abuse. We know athletes dope. If all one has to do to get a competitive advantage is suppress your natural juices a little less, it is way too easy to gain a performance advantage.

    This also goes back to the above issue - no one knows what level of T they would have had if born to another gender. Setting a limit for trans people is inherently unfair to the natural born athletes of that gender who do not have that level. If the trans person can have X level of hormone, it must be legal for all racers to take drugs to get to that level.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    No one is suggesting that a trans person has to give up cycling.

    Even at mid-level amateur level, racing bikes requires sacrifices - time, money, injury, etc. I assume that racing at the elite level requires more sacrifices (opportunity cost concepts). Personally wanting to change genders versus wanting be a professional athlete falls into that sacrifice/opportunity cost category. If it is more important to you to be an elite athlete, then wait until your career is over before undergoing the trans process. On the other hand, if changing gender is more important for you, then the choice is to give up on a professional cycling (weight lifting, running) career.

    The issue of allowing trans to compete in their new gender is in the inherent unknowns.

    One has no idea what level of athlete a trans person would have been if born as that gender. IOW, elite level athletes are genetic outliers. Without the genetic gift, one cannot rise to the elite levels. The inherent unfairness lies in assuming that the trans person would have been able to be an elite level athlete if born into that gender.

    WRT the drugs taken to maintain lower levels of male hormones - To me that screams of easy to abuse. We know athletes dope. If all one has to do to get a competitive advantage is suppress your natural juices a little less, it is way too easy to gain a performance advantage.

    This also goes back to the above issue - no one knows what level of T they would have had if born to another gender. Setting a limit for trans people is inherently unfair to the natural born athletes of that gender who do not have that level. If the trans person can have X level of hormone, it must be legal for all racers to take drugs to get to that level.
    Cycling is just one sport, there are others like basketball where being a male during puberty can allow for different physiology differences such as larger bone mass & growth that that person would otherwise not have had had that person been born a girl. In basketball, for example, having larger hands can be an advantage.

    If there are no advantages given, then a female, transitioning to a male should be equal to men in elite sports, but are we seeing that?

    https://stream.org/transgender-athle...al-difference/

    The Body Can’t Be Completely “Reformatted”
    Even with surgery, doping, and hormone treatment, you can’t change every piece of your body. The body functions as a cohesive whole. The skeletal system, the size of major internal organs, and one’s center of mass are all fundamental components of the body. We see this in athletes who use steroids. They often sustain injuries because steroids change muscle mass without changing the ligaments and tendons connected to the muscle.

    Doctors can change some things about the body. But they can’t “reformat” the body to become something else completely. A biological male is going to have the fundamental structures of a male body. That’s an inherent advantage in many sports.
    Women will, in effect, but pushed out of competition because they were born with female bodies. Does that make any sense? As Jeff Jacobs asks in his thoughtful article in the Hartford Courant, “What do we tell these girls? A transgender’s journey is more important than your journey?”
    Sports is not about feelings, it's about having the physiology to excel in a sport in your natural form. Like you said, life is about choices and sacrifices so transgenders who may have developed an unfair advantage should not be allowed to compete. It's not fair to natural women and they can wait until after they have finished their competition career to change their sex.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    For cat 2-5 be whatever you want.

    For pro/1, you compete under the gender of your birth.

    Life is not fair. You want to be a pro athlete, then do it on the field you were born with.

    As a male, my Vo2 max is a couple standard deviations above normal and a couple below elite. As a woman, i have elite level Vo2 numbers. Would it be fair to "change" to a woman and compete with them? If it is, then is it fair for me to dope to "level the playing field" for me to compete with other males?

    I toss the BS flag on some of the article. It is not a right to be a pro athlete. You want to change genders. Fine, your right. But, if you exercise that right, you may give up some privileges.
    Well spoken!!!! Totally Agree..

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post
    One of the links above said that Bearden's results were fair because she won the sprint by just half a second and the field speeds were on average lower.
    You didn't read the link did you? It is a century ride, not a USAC race. She gets shelled at USAC races.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Hero View Post

    I do not agree with that argument. She's entrenched in the oppressor/oppressed paradigm; she's a legit Marxist. Learn more about trans-athlete McKinnon here.
    Ahh, triggered by a Marxist again. Can you find anyone from USAC, WADA, or the IOC who agree with McKinnon and advocates for her position? Of course not.

    It is interesting that the folks most worked up about this issue are a bunch of men. I know several trans women who race. They have largely been embraced by other women racers. The heckling comes from men.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller
    1) Why this discussion? It's a thing between women and transwomen. I've never heard a male soccer player, track & field athlete, cyclist etc. complain about unfair competition from transmen. Males debating about this problem smells of mansplaining. Let the women and transwomen solve the issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti
    It is interesting that the folks most worked up about this issue are a bunch of men. I know several trans women who race. They have largely been embraced by other women racers. The heckling comes from men.
    There's probably a root cause in all this. It's the men.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    . They have largely been embraced by other women racers. The heckling comes from men.
    Let the women solve the issue is BS. The athletes are not the ones making the rules.

    I see no heckling whatsoever in this thread.

    The question is whether it is fair.

    Not sure wherher you are taking the position that men can state no valid opinion and/or if trans compete within the rules, it is fair?

    I disagree that men can have no valid opinion.
    I also disagree that following the rules makes it fair (for the reasons given in prior posts).

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    There's probably a root cause in all this. It's the men.
    Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I certainly don't want to imply that "the men" are the "root cause".

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Let the women solve the issue is BS. The athletes are not the ones making the rules.

    I see no heckling whatsoever in this thread.

    The question is whether it is fair.

    Not sure wherher you are taking the position that men can state no valid opinion and/or if trans compete within the rules, it is fair?

    I disagree that men can have no valid opinion.
    I also disagree that following the rules makes it fair (for the reasons given in prior posts).
    Huh? Who said that only women can solve the issue?

    If you read any of the variety of links and studies I posted you would understand that USAC's rules are not random, they are backed by several studies. The result is that Trans women are finishing mid pack and having fun participating in sport like the rest of us. They are mostly embraced by the women's racing community.......while dudes still get triggered.

    Relax, this is not the end of the world.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Ahh, triggered by a Marxist again. Can you find anyone from USAC, WADA, or the IOC who agree with McKinnon and advocates for her position? Of course not.

    It is interesting that the folks most worked up about this issue are a bunch of men. I know several trans women who race. They have largely been embraced by other women racers. The heckling comes from men.
    You think transgenders have been embraced by the women they are competing against? I highly doubt that and if they are saying it, they are being politically correct rather than honest. An elite athlete doesn't sacrifice their life to train so that they may not have a fair chance against a transgender.

    Transgender: Do trans athletes have an unfair advantage in sports?

    Dr. Ramona Krutzik, an endocrinologist with the Imperial Valley Endocrine Medical Corporation in Brawley, CA who has 19 years of experience studying human hormones, believes that one year of hormone therapy is not enough to reverse the “advantageous” effects that trans women athletes have after male puberty.

    According to Krutzik, athletes who grow up as men have already enjoyed an increased ability to build muscle and bone mass for years, which accounts for endurance and strength differences between biological men and women. And a few years of hormone suppression does not reverse these effects.

    “Typically, you’re looking at about 15 years after [hormone] suppression and [sex reassignment surgery] to really start to see significant changes in bone density,” Krutzik told boxing magazine Bloody Elbow.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    You think transgenders have been embraced by the women they are competing against? I highly doubt that and if they are saying it, they are being politically correct rather than honest. An elite athlete doesn't sacrifice their life to train so that they may not have a fair chance against a transgender.

    Transgender: Do trans athletes have an unfair advantage in sports?
    Yes, they have been embraced. Not everyone is hateful and scared. Nobody is sacrificing their life to finish mid-pack of a USAC race.

    FYI, this thread is about cycling. Not boxing. If you check the various studies I have posted on this thread you would understand why it is possible for trans women to compete

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Yes, they have been embraced. Not everyone is hateful and scared. Nobody is sacrificing their life to finish mid-pack of a USAC race.

    FYI, this thread is about cycling. Not boxing. If you check the various studies I have posted on this thread you would understand why it is possible for trans women to compete
    Oh it's possible for trans women to compete, but that doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage like larger lung capacity, larger hearts etc. It takes years for the advantages that men have developed during puberty to be reversed.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    Oh it's possible for trans women to compete, but that doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage like larger lung capacity, larger hearts etc. It takes years for the advantages that men have developed during puberty to be reversed.
    I suggest reading the studies and articles I linked. If you did you would find that your claims are flat wrong.

    Note, I am referring to cycling. Not boxing. Not weight lifting. Cycling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Yes, they have been embraced. Not everyone is hateful and scared. Nobody is sacrificing their life to finish mid-pack of a USAC race.

    FYI, this thread is about cycling. Not boxing. If you check the various studies I have posted on this thread you would understand why it is possible for trans women to compete
    Why do you continue to make emotion based responses?
    "Heckling", "hateful", "scared", "relax"

    The issue is whether it is fair for the trans to compete with the natural gender.

    Your emotion based red herrings do not further the conversation.

    FWIW, l4h has linked to articles about why it may not be fair. Don't see how your links trump hers.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    I suggest reading the studies and articles I linked. If you did you would find that your claims are flat wrong.

    Note, I am referring to cycling. Not boxing. Not weight lifting. Cycling.
    I suggest you read the quotes in my posts from doctors who have studied hormones for years. Those who have gone through puberty as a male have an unfair advantage in most sports. Period.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

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