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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I certainly don't want to imply that "the men" are the "root cause".
    oh, hmm, why don't I just say what I think to so I myself can be clear too. I think if the women don't have an issue with trans, then mens shouldn't stick their noses where they don't belong. And if the women do have an issue, then let's hear it from the women debate and not from the men to debate on the behalf of the women.

    On a related note. "sexuality" in nature is not always X and Y. It's a spectrum. XY is one thing, but science has learned and is still learnng that external factors can huge factors. The classic definite of XX = female and XY = male is become just a subset of criteria of a broadening definition (or rather, understanding) of what is male and what is female.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Why do you continue to make emotion based responses?
    "Heckling", "hateful", "scared", "relax"

    The issue is whether it is fair for the trans to compete with the natural gender.

    Your emotion based red herrings do not further the conversation.

    FWIW, l4h has linked to articles about why it may not be fair. Don't see how your links trump hers.
    Seriously? She has linked to articles about boxing, we are talking about cycling. Surely you can understand they are different sports?

    If you actually took the time to read the various studies and links I have posted you would understand how WADA/IOC/USAC came up with their model. If you read them, instead of deflecting to boxing, you would know that it is possible for Trans women to compete and for it to be fair. If you read them you would see multiple studies that show a 10-15% decrease in performance after a year of Testosterone suppression and estrogen therapy. If you read them you would also know that this decrease in performance is on par with the difference in performance between elite men and women athletes. If you read them you would know that the drop is performance is not only due to Test suppression but the side effects of estrogen.

    ......but you don't read them, instead you just repeat the same thing over and over.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Seriously? She has linked to articles about boxing, we are talking about cycling. Surely you can understand they are different sports?
    Which article would that be? If you look back my quotes from the articles are general, not specific to any one sport.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    Which article would that be? If you look back my quotes from the articles are general, not specific to any one sport.
    Do you read your own posts?

    You not only quoted, but highlighted, a quote from Krutzik that was specifically about boxing. You even bolded where it was from.

    Krutzik told boxing magazine Bloody Elbow.


    This is a cycling form. We are discussing Trans women in cycling. Not boxing, basketball, volleyball.......Cycling.

    USAC has very specific rules, based on lots of study, that enable trans women to compete fairly in cycling. Jullien, for example, has been part of a USAC study for 3 years. She is not a Pro, she is a Cat 2. In the one Pro race she did she finished 55 place, 11 minutes back.

  5. #55
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    Trolls are triggered by Transwomen

    Her Facebook and Strava pages were quickly stained with anonymous commenters seemingly irked by her talent. Recently she’s had to report online death threats to the police. Transwomen are disproportionately targeted for violence
    https://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/0...-classic-2017/

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Do you read your own posts?

    You not only quoted, but highlighted, a quote from Krutzik that was specifically about boxing. You even bolded where it was from.



    This is a cycling form. We are discussing Trans women in cycling. Not boxing, basketball, volleyball.......Cycling.

    USAC has very specific rules, based on lots of study, that enable trans women to compete fairly in cycling. Jullien, for example, has been part of a USAC study for 3 years. She is not a Pro, she is a Cat 2. In the one Pro race she did she finished 55 place, 11 minutes back.
    So you don't like the evidence because of the magazine it comes from?
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    oh, hmm, why don't I just say what I think to so I myself can be clear too. I think if the women don't have an issue with trans, then mens shouldn't stick their noses where they don't belong. And if the women do have an issue, then let's hear it from the women debate and not from the men to debate on the behalf of the women.
    That's what I should have written ...
    Apologies if my language came over as rude.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    So you don't like the evidence because of the magazine it comes from?


    If you bothered to read the links you post you would that there is a link to her interview. It is about the boxing. You might not realize this but boxing and cycling are very different sports.

    Fortunately I have posted several links that talk with experts in cycling. They give the guidelines and explain the reasoning behind how USAC developed them.

    If you want to talk about boxing perhaps you should post in a boxing forum.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    This is a cycling form. We are discussing Trans women in cycling. Not boxing, basketball, volleyball.......Cycling.
    Then why did you post a link to the Harper study done on runners?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by frons View Post
    Then why did you post a link to the Harper study done on runners?
    The Harper study on endurance runners showed similar decreases in performance as USAC's research. Most reasonable people can see that endurance sports, like running, cycling, cross country skiing, etc. have more in common than cycling and boxing.

  11. #61
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    Have you argued in the past that dopers who took testosterone and EPO for years have beneficial effects that may go beyond the 2 year ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Or was it a transwoman triggered by trolls?

    Jokes aside, Bearden is undeserving of ridicule or threats. Attacking her is wrong (even if she is wrong). She is following the rules and from all accounts she is a good person just trying to race as a woman. The question is whether the rules are correct. Should trans women just race with men and accept that they are mediocre?

    Is the 10nm limit the right limit? Should the 10nm limit be lowered to that of natural born women? 2.8?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimoly View Post
    "( I do not know enough about testing a person's free test when they are on HRT. But how long between the suppression therapy and the test? I wonder, if the drug is administered 3 days prior to the test, will the results be different than if the drug is administered 25 days prior to the test? Is there a way to cheat the system? )"

    The testosterone suppressant most commonly used is Spironolactone, and is taken orally twice daily. Your doctor first issues a generic prescriptive level and then adjusts it according to test results. The maintenance prescription is one that we will take for the rest of our lives if we do not wish to have unwelcome male secondary characteristics to return. This maintenance prescription level is reduced after orchiectomy, as without the testes the body does produce less testosterone. All bodies, make and female, produce testosterone - albeit in different amounts (with a wide variation even within members of the same gender).

    Thus, there is usually no variance in time period between taking the Spironolactone and any test given to check for testosterone levels. It should be the same on any day as the drug is usually taken at breakfast and at the evening meal (you have to take it with food and you don't want to take it too late at night as it causes you to pee more often).
    Thanks for the insight.

    The question here is whether this is an easy system to abuse. McKinnon said she does not believe trans women should have to take any hormones or hormone blockers. What if she still wants to compete and wants to "trick" the testing. Is it possible to take the drugs just enough to pass the tests but still benefit from having testosterone levels above 10nm for the majority of the month?

    I do not expect you to know the answer. I am just framing the issue.

    While I have not competed in decades (quitting decades before starting HRT), I can attest that I have lost general muscle mass and speed on the bike.
    There is no doubt that the drugs lower athletic performance, just as taking testosterone would increase performance.


    When you have given up so much in order to bring your body into accord with your soul, to be told that you are not what you are and that you have to accept being declared to be what you have left behind is a nasty slap in the face.
    To some top level women I know, it's a slap in the face to have an androgynous person, born male, beat them. And if they dare question it they are called a bigot. This is happening in my district.

    I mean, we have already given up decent wages
    Does this really happen? Let's say there is a computer engineer who transitions. Do they get paid a lower rate? Does HR suddenly dock their pay?

    and many friendships (false friends, apparently, when they can't accept us for who we are) and have to suffer from public ridicule and a higher level of violent assault than our cisgender sisters.
    There is no question that being trans is difficult. I cannot even imagine.

    It takes a very brave woman to decide to open herself up to the level of hate shown by the public in order to continue a sport she loves.
    It has been asked: Why not race with them men and avoid all that hardship? Why is it so important to stomp on women who didn't go through puberty with a crazy amount of testosterone coursing through their veins?

  13. #63
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    Why not make the limit at the same relative level it was for the person pre-trans as the post trans level.

    For example, if person's pre vo2 and T was 110% of general male population, then post trans (male to female trans) that person cannot exceed 110% of vo2 and T of the general female population.

    Note: my position is change gender, then no more pro athlete. My above statement is to further a discussion on levels.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    The Harper study on endurance runners showed similar decreases in performance as USAC's research. Most reasonable people can see that endurance sports, like running, cycling, cross country skiing, etc. have more in common than cycling and boxing.
    So how does an increased lung capacity, heart & fast twitch muscle all that studies show may be still true with transgender women not pertain to cycling?
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Why not make the limit at the same relative level it was for the person pre-trans as the post trans level.

    For example, if person's pre vo2 and T was 110% of general male population, then post trans (male to female trans) that person cannot exceed 110% of vo2 and T of the general female population.

    Note: my position is change gender, then no more pro athlete. My above statement is to further a discussion on levels.
    That is what USAC is doing.

    If you read the links I posted you would see it is not just about Test levels. The athlete has to be on hormone therapy for at least a year. They have been tracking Jillian's wattage in an effort to insert her into a similar level as a female as she was pre-transition. The goal is participation, not domination.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    So how does an increased lung capacity, heart & fast twitch muscle all that studies show may be still true with transgender women not pertain to cycling?
    If you read the studies I posted, instead of some lady talking about boxing, you would know that after a year of hormone therapy endurance athletes average 11.5% decrease in performance.

  17. #67
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    Minus 11.5%, across the board?

    So a guy with a 300 watt FTP will be a girl with a 266 watt FTP.
    A guy who sprints at 1400 watts will be a girl who sprint at 1240 watts.

    A guy with mediocre numbers will be a monster girl, especially if there is an 11.5% drop in body weight.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    If you read the studies I posted, instead of some lady talking about boxing, you would know that after a year of hormone therapy endurance athletes average 11.5% decrease in performance.
    No, you've posted a link to a single study (not plural).

    On runners.

    With eight participants (and one withdrew before the end of the study).

    And Harper's data from studying Bearden, as if to set the baseline for all other MtF trans athletes, may be a good baseline or it may not. Data is much more sparse than you are admitting.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by frons View Post
    No, you've posted a link to a single study (not plural).

    On runners.

    With eight participants (and one withdrew before the end of the study).

    And Harper's data from studying Bearden, as if to set the baseline for all other MtF trans athletes, may be a good baseline or it may not. Data is much more sparse than you are admitting.
    Harper is not studying Bearden, USAC is. Her decrease in performance is in line with other studies and athletes experience.

    Currently there are over 50 trans women racing with a USAC license. Given the fear pushed on this thread there should be plenty of examples of them "Stomping" other women. So far the best anyone can come up with is Bearden "Won" a century ride.

  20. #70
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    The reason nobody can find an example of a trans women dominating is that USAC takes performance into account.

    USA Cycling’s technical Director, Chuck Hodge

    “Let’s say we have someone who in the past raced as a Cat 3 male, the female category may not correspond so we needed to have the ability to move somebody around outside of the upgrade rules in fairness to everyone, the athlete and the other competitors,”
    “I don’t want this to be a witch hunt. What we are looking for is to strike a balance at the grassroots level to let riders race their bikes in a fair atmosphere with people of like ability, and at the elite level, to make sure that we are meeting the international guidelines while also protecting the athlete and the sanctity of competition,”
    “This wasn’t a hard decision,” he said. “It’s really just treating people fairly and equitably and with respect.”

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Harper is not studying Bearden, USAC is.
    Read your own links.

    It turns out she has been an excellent research subject for Joanna Harper, a physicist who is transgender and has been studying the performance of transgender females as compared to their previous male selves and women who were born physically female.

    This has been borne out by Harper’s research on runners and on Bearden, who had completed rigorous testing at a Colorado bicycle training center in 2011, before beginning her transition.
    Again, Bearden may be an "excellent research subject," but that's one data point.

  22. #72
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    Moderator's Note

    this thread went to a bad place, edited and locked.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

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