Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 72
  1. #1
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,107

    Fairness with Transgender Cyclists

    Two trans women disagree on fairness. In the article, McKinnon wants trans women to compete with without undergoing any hormone treatment or limitations. Bearden says the 10nm (IOC standard) should limit competition. So how do we reconcile fairness to the trans athlete with fairness to the competition?


    And then there is the question as to whether 10nm is the appropriate standard
    .
    In 2015, the IOC changed their regulations to include trans women in the women's category of events if they remained under the testosterone levels of 10 nanomoles per litre (NMOL/L) a year prior to competing, as well as during competition.

    However, a CIS female (a born female) can reach nowhere near the testosterone level of 10 NMOL/L. The average female sits at 2.8 NMOL/L and the average male 23-25 NMOL/L. This means [some trans females] compete at three times the amount of testosterone to other females.

    "It hasn't been studied, but logical science will tell you someone who has three times more testosterone has the advantage physically. We need to do more research before arguing either way.

    "I don't know what the solution is, but right now it is not fair on CIS females competing against transgender women."

    So it seems like there are four possible approaches:

    A) Let trans women compete without limitation
    B) Let trans women compete w women if their testosterone levels are below 10nm
    C) Let trans women compete w women if their testosterone is below X-nm
    D) Athletes compete as their birth sex or in the elites

    This comes up in my district as there is a Cat-3 trans women winning W1/2/3 races. (And honestly I would not have known that this person is claiming female unless someone told me -- she is totally androgynous.) Two of the top female racers in the district have privately expressed displeasure but would never do so publicly, for fear for backlash.

    So I would go with D above. Why is it so important for these trans women to beat real women? Nobody is saying the trans women cannot race - just race in the elites.

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: DaveWC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    3,227
    How about Caster Semenya? She was born a woman but has a condition known as hyperandrogenism, which causes some women to produce higher levels of male sex hormones such as testosterone.

  3. #3
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,107
    Right, and there is another female runner who has super high testosterone levels; she is discussed in the article above. I do not know if there is an easy answer to this or if those few female athletes with conditions should be the foundation for transgender guidelines. I assume there is some distinction between a woman with high testosterone levels and a person born with a penis and testicles who identifies as a woman.

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,088
    Jillian is right on this. If anyone is actually interested in the details and the rules here are some good links

    https://303cycling.com/transgender-c...llian-bearden/

    Steller: Transgender cyclist's win in Tucson was fairer than it seemed | Latest Tim Steller columns | tucson.com

    You claim a trans women is wining Cat 3 races. Is this occasional or does she win a lot? If so they should upgrade her.

    The Caster Semenya story is very, very, complex. The reality is a large percentage of female athletes have genetic variances that give them a competitive advantage.

  5. #5
    Cycling Addict
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    3,902
    My opinion is that transgender women should be allowed to compete as women under the same testosterone limits as cisgender women, as long as they have registered at those levels for at least a year. HRT significantly weakens a MTF during transition. Forcing her to compete with men is showing a significant misunderstanding of what she has gone through to achieve her present status.
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  6. #6
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,450
    For cat 2-5 be whatever you want.

    For pro/1, you compete under the gender of your birth.

    Life is not fair. You want to be a pro athlete, then do it on the field you were born with.

    As a male, my Vo2 max is a couple standard deviations above normal and a couple below elite. As a woman, i have elite level Vo2 numbers. Would it be fair to "change" to a woman and compete with them? If it is, then is it fair for me to dope to "level the playing field" for me to compete with other males?

    I toss the BS flag on some of the article. It is not a right to be a pro athlete. You want to change genders. Fine, your right. But, if you exercise that right, you may give up some privileges.
    Last edited by crit_boy; 02-12-2018 at 09:55 PM.

  7. #7
    Cycling Addict
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    3,902
    So a Pro/1 FTM (transgender man) would have to compete with the women even though he has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has a significant advantage?
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,450
    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    So a Pro/1 FTM (transgender man) would have to compete with the women even though he has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has a significant advantage?
    Not legal to take testosterone. So, they could not compete b/c the act of taking the drug violates the rules.

  9. #9
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    29
    It’s a tough issue for sure. Question: who among these cases competed as an elite / pro PRE operation? As far as I can tell, none?

    Point is, while respecting their needs and all, many of these trans-women have shot up the national / world rankings as a direct result of their gender reassignment.

    And if that’s the case, in the narrow focus of international competition, is it fair to say they have an advantage due to medical treatment? HGH and steroid treatments are all legal forms of medical treatment, as are maybe hundreds of other threatments.. all of which are outlawed in competition because of the inherent and measurable enhancement to performance.

    So by allowing trans women with higher natural testosterone levels to compete on a level playing field, shouldn’t we then allow sufferers of severe asthma who may need frequent steroid doses?

  10. #10
    Not a rocket surgeon.
    Reputation: tihsepa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    9,402
    I think they should compete in their own class. Against other transwhatevers. Do whatever they want and be whatever they want. Have at it.
    You cant make up your own rights to fit whatever situation you have worked yourself into.
    Yes, I am intolerant.

  11. #11
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,139
    Life ain't fair.

    But why should the many(born women racers) be put at a disadvantage to be "fair" to the few(transgender racers).
    Too old to ride plastic

  12. #12
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,088
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    Life ain't fair.

    But why should the many(born women racers) be put at a disadvantage to be "fair" to the few(transgender racers).

    I suggest reading the links I posted. Managed correctly it is completely possible for Trans women participate in sports and it to be fair.

  13. #13
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,450
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    I suggest reading the links I posted. Managed correctly it is completely possible for Trans women participate in sports and it to be fair.
    It appears that lance and possibly froome "managed correctly". What is the difference? They need drugs to make them something they are not.

    Their bodies developed with testosterone (etc) through puberty. So, not fair to those that lacked male hormone levels during their physical developement.

    Sorry. It is inherently unfair to people who were born and continue to race as females.

    Change you parts, you don't get to be a pro athlete. Life sucks. Choose another profession.

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: DaveWC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    3,227
    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Change you parts, you don't get to be a pro athlete. Life sucks. Choose another profession.
    Again, in the case of Caster Semenya no parts were changed. Her body simply produces more testosterone than normal.

    Eero Mantyranta, a (male) Finnish cross-country skier who won seven Olympic medals in the 1960s, including three golds, was found to have a genetic mutation that increased his hemoglobin level to about 50 percent higher than the average man’s.

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,088
    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    It appears that lance and possibly froome "managed correctly". What is the difference? They need drugs to make them something they are not.

    Their bodies developed with testosterone (etc) through puberty. So, not fair to those that lacked male hormone levels during their physical developement.

    Sorry. It is inherently unfair to people who were born and continue to race as females.

    Change you parts, you don't get to be a pro athlete. Life sucks. Choose another profession.
    Your post makes no sense. We are not talking about Lance and Froome.

    Again, I suggested reading the links I posted. It is completely possible for a Trans person to fairly participate in sports.

  16. #16
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,088
    Some folks prefer to remain ignorant, those who do not should read a bit about the process.

    2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.

    2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).

    2.3. The athlete’s total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.

    2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.
    “Enough of them (advantages) go away that it’s reasonable to suggest the two groups can compete against each other equitably.”
    After nine months or so of hormone therapy, Harper’s research found, transgender runners and cyclists typically lose about 11 percent of their ability. That, it happens, is the average difference in performance between elite male and female cyclists and runners.
    USA Cycling works with athletes who have transitioned to get them in a category where they will be competitive.

    Jillian provided me with some pre and post transition times to some of the local benchmarks in Colorado Springs.

    Cheyenne Canyon: 16:14 and 21:08 (77% difference)
    Gold Camp Road: 15:50 and 19:20 (82% difference)
    The Incline: 23:38 and 27:45 (85% difference)

    Jillian has lost anywhere from 15% to 22% in performance on these particular benchmarks
    “Within nine months of being on testosterone (suppression), I was running 12 percent slower,”


    “They were relatively speaking equally competitive in men’s distance running and afterwards in women’s distance running,”

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,139
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWC View Post
    Again, in the case of Caster Semenya no parts were changed. Her body simply produces more testosterone than normal.

    Eero Mantyranta, a (male) Finnish cross-country skier who won seven Olympic medals in the 1960s, including three golds, was found to have a genetic mutation that increased his hemoglobin level to about 50 percent higher than the average man’s.
    These are, for lack of a better term, genetic freaks(no insult ), born with this advantage, not going thru any type of life change to get there. I see that as being different to someone who starts in one place and goes thru a life change to be in another place.
    Too old to ride plastic

  18. #18
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,450
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Your post makes no sense. We are not talking about Lance and Froome.

    Again, I suggested reading the links I posted. It is completely possible for a Trans person to fairly participate in sports.
    What is the difference b/t a doper and a person who must take drugs to remain in a different gender?

    So "managed effectively" means takes drugs. What if they take a little less to be slightly less female and allow slightly more male hormones?

    It is not fair b/c a born female developed with her natural juices. A born male developed with different juices. We have no idea what that mtf would have been if born female. As such, there is no "fair" level of testosterone for a trans gender - unless everyone is allowed to dope to that level of T or everything else.

    I don't care abiut the actual rule. I am not a mtf pro athlete.

    If you change your parts, you can't be a professional.

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,088
    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    What is the difference b/t a doper and a person who must take drugs to remain in a different gender?

    So "managed effectively" means takes drugs. What if they take a little less to be slightly less female and allow slightly more male hormones?

    It is not fair b/c a born female developed with her natural juices. A born male developed with different juices. We have no idea what that mtf would have been if born female. As such, there is no "fair" level of testosterone for a trans gender - unless everyone is allowed to dope to that level of T or everything else.

    I don't care abiut the actual rule. I am not a mtf pro athlete.

    If you change your parts, you can't be a professional.
    You seriously don't know the difference?

    Fortunately the IOC, WADA, and USAC do. They have reasonable program in place that enables Trans athletes to compete in a fair way. If you read any of the links, and quotes, I have posted you would know this.

  20. #20
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,139
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    You seriously don't know the difference?

    Fortunately the IOC, WADA, and USAC do. They have reasonable program in place that enables Trans athletes to compete in a fair way. If you read any of the links, and quotes, I have posted you would know this.
    What is the average nmol/L of testosterone reading in a born woman? How many born women have a testosterone level higher than 9nmol/L?
    Too old to ride plastic

  21. #21
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: love4himies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    5,491
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    What is the average nmol/L of testosterone reading in a born woman? How many born women have a testosterone level higher than 9nmol/L?
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-...peed-and-power

    In 2015, the IOC changed their regulations to include trans women in the women's category of events if they remained under the testosterone levels of 10 nanomoles per litre (NMOL/L) a year prior to competing, as well as during competition.

    However, a CIS female (a born female) can reach nowhere near the testosterone level of 10 NMOL/L. The average female sits at 2.8 NMOL/L and the average male 23-25 NMOL/L. This means the likes of Hubbard competes at three times the amount of testosterone to other weightlifting females.
    Other advantages when born a male:

    "I don't know what the solution is, but right now it is not fair on CIS females competing against transgender women."

    Heather said not only can testosterone levels give trans women an advantage over their CIS female competitors, after transitioning a trans woman's muscle mass, lung capacity and muscle memory all remain the same as when they were CIS male. That could give the trans female athlete a possible advantage when competing in activities that involve physical strength.
    "There has been very little research into elite male to female transgender athletes.

    "Whether this normalising of hormone levels (and at 10 NMOL/L it is debatable whether they are normalised enough) removes the vast majority of the advantage of having been male is still an unanswered question."
    Agree the sports authorities have jumped the gun when making this politically correct decision before enough research has been done on the advantages in sport a human has if born a male.
    While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. - Stephen R. Covey.

  22. #22
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,139
    Quote Originally Posted by love4himies View Post
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-...peed-and-power



    Other advantages when born a male:





    Agree the sports authorities have jumped the gun when making this politically correct decision before enough research has been done on the advantages in sport a human has if born a male.
    And this is why I see nothing fair to allow trans women to compete against born women. An unfair advantage is allowed to the trans women while calling it fair.

    crit_boy's comparison to Armstrong and Froome is right on the money.
    Too old to ride plastic

  23. #23
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,088
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    And this is why I see nothing fair to allow trans women to compete against born women. An unfair advantage is allowed to the trans women while calling it fair.

    crit_boy's comparison to Armstrong and Froome is right on the money.
    If you read the links, and quotes, I posted. The multiple experts, the results from the athletes themselves, you would understand why the IOC, WADA, and USAC disagree with you.

  24. #24
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,088
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    What is the average nmol/L of testosterone reading in a born woman? How many born women have a testosterone level higher than 9nmol/L?
    What are the side effects of estrogen therapy?

    The reality is each person utilizes test differently. A person can have a naturally high test level and not have excessive musculature. As the links and studies I posted show a person born male who drops his test level below 9nmol/L sees a huge decrease in strength. They will be significantly weaker than a woman who dopes up to 9nmol/L because their body is used to much higher levels. The response is not linear.

    There are several studies that support the IOC, WADA, USADA, USAC position
    Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities » Race Times for Transgender Athletes


    There is an overreprsentation (by about 10,000 fold) in the Olympics of women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Their bodies can use absolutely no androgens, and they're highly overrepresented in high level sport. Will you be excluding them as well?

    The reality is trans cyclists have had little success. The fear campaign is unfounded as 1 year of estrogen therapy mutes any advantages a person born male might have......if you read the links, studies, and quotes, I posted you would know that

  25. #25
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    You claim a trans women is wining Cat 3 races. Is this occasional or does she win a lot? If so they should upgrade her.
    I think she has raced under 20 times and won half her races. A few times that she didn't win it was because her teammate won or teammate was in the break, then she won the field sprint. I am not interested in posting her USAC license on this board but if you are interested let me know and I will private message you her results. From there you can search out her facebook and see that she looks like an androgynous boy: short hair, stuffed sports bra on a flat chest, broad shoulders, V-back, and a bulge in front of the skinsuit.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The new "transgender bathroom fear mongering" stupidity...
    By Typetwelve in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 321
    Last Post: 05-23-2018, 05:23 PM
  2. Transgender Discrimination: Public Schools Can't Do It.
    By TerminatorX91 in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-03-2015, 10:38 AM
  3. Replies: 245
    Last Post: 09-06-2015, 10:54 AM
  4. Transgender couple: Making babies
    By jarbiker in forum Politics Only
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-15-2014, 05:07 AM
  5. Transgender issue -- advice needed
    By MarkS in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 01-05-2008, 03:54 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.