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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post

    Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.

    The irony is, I took all the gear off of my Giant and put it on my 20 y/o plus Kestrel frame (100% carbon) and am riding that while I figure this out. The frame is quite a bit heavier, but built like a tank!

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    doesn't even have to be a 'manufacturing defect' it could be an engineering defect too. but you'd only know if you had it expertly analyzed. Trouble is where can you hire a true expert qualified to do such analysis? I only know of Luescher, on the other side of the World, and even then I as a consumer don't know how authentic his credentials are.

    the bike makers are in the catbird seat. they supposedly have the experts and the game play on their side. They may also have a prejudice against all riders who file complaints, because sometimes the riders lie about it. We as non experts can never really know if the warranty is a marketing ploy or if it is real. And these things are too low dollar to be litigating over, unless someone gets seriously injured.
    I am a mechanical engineering and have personally worked numerous structural failure analysis investigations in the satellite industry. Some of them were composite failures. In those efforts I have worked with some of the top composite experts in the country. When I showed them the frame said it was an obvious design weakness couple with a manufacturing defect.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    What a load of bull.
    Try using the google. There's thousands of photos of cracked/broken Ti, Steel, & Aluminum bikes.


    For any industry huh?
    You never heard of cracks in aluminum airplane structures? And now they're making airplanes from carbon fiber. ZOMG!
    how did I get called out for that? Want to edit?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Not 1-3 or 4 year old frames.

    Couch it all how you might want it.

    But it simply is not true.

    This stuff is happening on basically new carbon lain material.

    For other material. No. Unless you're talking 10 to 20 to 30 year old frames.


    It's like Trump's little world here, only applied to bicycles. At least Donald paid out, though, lol.
    Wrong again... many of these were rather new frames. You failed to note my comment about my friend who went through THREE Viner frames in the early 80s... none of those bikes was more than two years old. The water bottle mount crack was on a three year old Land Shark (ultra thin steel tubing).

    thing is, you are making absolute statements - "this doesn't happen to new (name your alloy here) frames, but it does to carbon" - while we are saying that we have seen it on all types of frames, so there is no absolute.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I was replacing a shifter cable on my 2014 Giant Defy Advanced 1 (MSRP $3200) and flipped the bike over to see what was going on because the cable was stuck. Shockingly, I found a crack on the crank side coming out of the corner of the cable guide cutout. I purchased the bike December 2015 and it has ~5000 miles of riding on it (3600 in the last year).


    Attachment 322537
    First thing, maybe take a better picture. I would advise you to remove the 2 cables and plastic BB insert, so you can inspect and show via pictures the damage better. Also gently wash the area to remove dirt without causing any further abrasion.

    The dirt or whatever looks like some serious underside abrasion, which is likely not helping you. That's not normal on road bikes, at least not on mine.

  6. #31
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    how did I get called out for that? Want to edit?
    Sorry about that. Fixed it.
    For some reason when I hit reply I'm getting 3 multi quotes. RBR hamsters must be drinking.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    The irony is, I took all the gear off of my Giant and put it on my 20 y/o plus Kestrel frame (100% carbon) and am riding that while I figure this out. The frame is quite a bit heavier, but built like a tank!
    yes the Kestrels back then were if anything over engineered if compared with now. Good thing too. I really liked my EMS 200 sci but the BMC teammahine is three times a better ride.

    I agree too, it's a design and probably a fabricating error.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unreal, not another one! Dam#, Paul H, I feel for you. Good thing you didn't keep riding that, or other cracks, from stressing too much at that junction, might have happened at other locations. As carbon becomes more prevalent, finally people will start realizing what "crack propagation" truly means. Countless hours/weeks argument over this inside a large aircraft manufacturer, my head hurts thinking about it.

    I hope Giant steps up.....just like for the other poster I hope Trek steps up (only difference with the Trek poster was he never caught the beginning of the crack in the stay, which reached the point of a 'Cat Failure', which then took out other areas in the worst way possible).

    Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.
    I just about spit a mouthful of coffee all over my keyboard when I read this. Where do you come up w/ this ****?
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  9. #34
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    BTW: the joke "Crack 'n' Fail" has a definite truth to it. Cannondale is the only bicycle manufacturer required by the CPSC to place a sticker on their frames warning the consumer to regularly inspect the frame for cracks. This happened in the mid-90s, but I have seen that sticker on recent Cannondale bikes.
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  10. #35
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    First thing, maybe take a better picture. I would advise you to remove the 2 cables and plastic BB insert, so you can inspect and show via pictures the damage better. Also gently wash the area to remove dirt without causing any further abrasion.

    The dirt or whatever looks like some serious underside abrasion, which is likely not helping you. That's not normal on road bikes, at least not on mine.
    What? Looks to me like it's been ridden in the rain and not cleaned, and also over lubed but that's not abrasion.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I am a mechanical engineering and have personally worked numerous structural failure analysis investigations in the satellite industry. Some of them were composite failures. In those efforts I have worked with some of the top composite experts in the country. When I showed them the frame said it was an obvious design weakness couple with a manufacturing defect.
    I wish you all the best with your frame.

    But ... you showed your frame to some of the top composite experts in the country and they said it was an "obvious" design weakness coupled with a manufacturing defect?

    I'm willing to believe you, but boy, some experts.
    Did you show them a picture? Did you show them the frame? What did they do with the frame? (and do you always have the frame with you?) Did they all say it was obviously a design weakness etc.?

    I would expect a real top expert to say: "OK man, I'll give you my opinion, but keep in mind that I don't know anything about racebikes."

  12. #37
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    Yep, no abrasion just dirt. I wiped it away from the failure area, should have done a better job.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    I wish you all the best with your frame.

    But ... you showed your frame to some of the top composite experts in the country and they said it was an "obvious" design weakness coupled with a manufacturing defect?

    I'm willing to believe you, but boy, some experts.
    Did you show them a picture? Did you show them the frame? What did they do with the frame? (and do you always have the frame with you?) Did they all say it was obviously a design weakness etc.?

    I would expect a real top expert to say: "OK man, I'll give you my opinion, but keep in mind that I don't know anything about racebikes."
    I brought them the frame. They said that they could perform non destructive testing (Thermography, ultrasound, and CT scan) but said it would be a waste of effort for a failure as obvious as this. They speculated that there were too many microvoids in the fiber coupled with the stress riser in the corner of the cutout. The cyclic loading due to pedaling then resulted in a fatigue failure.


    This was their opinion
    1) Poor design creating high stress area
    2) Manufacturing issue in the area of high stress

    They have been expert witnesses (ironically for bike manufacturers) in personal injury cases. Mostly fork failures leading to the rider being impaled. That has made me reconsider my carbon fork.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    And there we go again.
    It could be a manufacturing defect, but then, perhaps, it isn't.

    I think the best one can do is send a picture to Giant. They have massive experience in checking damaged frames. After all, they have massive experience building frames. They even build Trek frames.

    By looking at the picture, Giant will know immediately if it's manufacturing defect. Just like Trek, I suppose. Case closed.
    The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame. They will go with the "user damage" first, and I suspect it's only in cases of clear manufacturing defect will they want to own up to it and replace the frame. And without cutting up a frame to analyze the inside of the tubes, how is the manufacturer is to determine if a frame failure is the result of a crash or manufacturing defect? It's totally conceivable that a manufacturing defect can lead to a bigger crash that will ultimately cause the rider to crash or make the frame to fail to the point such that the frame now looks to have sustained damage from user crashing. To analyze such failure, I think you'd need to cut up the frame and analyze it first. There is a carbon expert on Youtube called Luescher Teknik and he has many times over demonstrate to viewers the imperfections of carbon fiber manufacturing within the bicycle industry. There are plenty of wrinkles and voids within these tubes to cause as stress initiation points.

    Yet, when a warranty case is presented by a consumer, the process involves the LBS taking a photo and sending it to the manufacturer, and based on this a decision is made whether it's a user's fault or manufacturer defect. What kind of analysis is that? Ideally, what should happen is that the frame should be cut up and analyzed, and then give the analysis. But this probably takes too much time and cost for the manufactuers to do, so they simply go with "user's fault" and hope that the user will throw his hands in the air and accept it as is.

    well I know if it were me, and I'm absolutely convinced that I did not crash and cause the frame to fail, and the manufacturer denies it, I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court. It is not too hard to show a reasonable preponderance of evidence to the judge as to why a frame would fail. Otherwise, we're all at the mercy of some guy looking at our photos and depending on his quotas determines if our frame will get a warranty!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    yes the Kestrels back then were if anything over engineered if compared with now. Good thing too. I really liked my EMS 200 sci but the BMC teammahine is three times a better ride.

    I agree too, it's a design and probably a fabricating error.
    The Kestrel was incredible in the 90's and it still is a fun bike, but the technology has moved on since it was built. Here is a photo of the Kestrel with modern hardware.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails GIANT denies warranty on obvious manufacturing defect for 2014 Defy Advanced 1-5ca16a05-35ba-41b0-b848-b2d6ddfa06e2.jpg  

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury
    I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court. It is not too hard to show a reasonable preponderance of evidence to the judge as to why a frame would fail.
    That is key. Civil court is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". You just need to convince a judge that there's a 51% chance you're correct.
    If you can get a couple independent sources to say that it wasn't user damage, you're likely to win. The manufacturers claim is going to be biased.
    Small claims costs around $50-$75 and a day off work. You don't have much to lose.

    I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court.
    I'm not sure if they're who you'd sue, or Giant. Giant is the one making the warranty. I don't know if the LBS has liability.
    I would think suing Giant would be a better option. They're going to incur a lot of expense flying someone in to argue the case. Pressuring them to settle.
    Last edited by tlg; 05-04-2018 at 08:21 AM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I brought them the frame. They said that they could perform non destructive testing (Thermography, ultrasound, and CT scan) but said it would be a waste of effort for a failure as obvious as this. They speculated that there were too many microvoids in the fiber coupled with the stress riser in the corner of the cutout. The cyclic loading due to pedaling then resulted in a fatigue failure.


    This was their opinion
    1) Poor design creating high stress area
    2) Manufacturing issue in the area of high stress

    They have been expert witnesses (ironically for bike manufacturers) in personal injury cases. Mostly fork failures leading to the rider being impaled. That has made me reconsider my carbon fork.
    I'll believe your experts. Luescher Teknik (on youtube) is a bicycle expert himself and has said and shown similar things about voids and stress initiators (wrinkles) many many times when he cut up carbon frames.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I am a mechanical engineering and have personally worked numerous structural failure analysis investigations in the satellite industry. Some of them were composite failures. In those efforts I have worked with some of the top composite experts in the country. When I showed them the frame said it was an obvious design weakness couple with a manufacturing defect.
    well then have them sign an affidavit saying so, listing their credentials

    and hey I 100% sympathize with you, based on what limited info I have. I'd feel kinda powerless as a consumer on this issue.

    only thing else I'd suggest is exhaust all reasonable avenues for a solution before engaging in an online feedback rampage. It could just be some middle-level F-up and the MFR might still be coaxed to a reasonable solution if treated with respect, patience and reason.
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 05-04-2018 at 08:24 AM.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame. They will go with the "user damage" first, and I suspect it's only in cases of clear manufacturing defect will they want to own up to it and replace the frame. And without cutting up a frame to analyze the inside of the tubes, how is the manufacturer is to determine if a frame failure is the result of a crash or manufacturing defect? It's totally conceivable that a manufacturing defect can lead to a bigger crash that will ultimately cause the rider to crash or make the frame to fail to the point such that the frame now looks to have sustained damage from user crashing. To analyze such failure, I think you'd need to cut up the frame and analyze it first. There is a carbon expert on Youtube called Luescher Teknik and he has many times over demonstrate to viewers the imperfections of carbon fiber manufacturing within the bicycle industry. There are plenty of wrinkles and voids within these tubes to cause as stress initiation points.

    Yet, when a warranty case is presented by a consumer, the process involves the LBS taking a photo and sending it to the manufacturer, and based on this a decision is made whether it's a user's fault or manufacturer defect. What kind of analysis is that? Ideally, what should happen is that the frame should be cut up and analyzed, and then give the analysis. But this probably takes too much time and cost for the manufacturer's to do, so they simply go with "user's fault" and hope that the user will throw his hands in the air and accept it as is.

    well I know if it were me, and I'm absolutely convinced that I did not crash and cause the frame to fail, and the manufacturer denies it, I'd be looking to take the LBS where I got the frame from to small claims court. It is not too hard to show a reasonable preponderance of evidence to the judge as to why a frame would fail. Otherwise, we're all at the mercy of some guy looking at our photos and depending on his quotas determines if our frame will get a warranty!

    I think that is what made me so angry. They were saying I crashed the bike, when I didn't, based on a photo of a tiny crack.

    In the end, I will probably get the frame repaired and move on. I have a couple of quotes of $200 for the repair.

    Giant still has the frame, I guess when I told the LBS that I had some experts look a the frame and they laughed at their accident claim they decided to look at it too. So, there is a chance they will reverse themselves, but I am not hopeful. They no longer make the frame so even if they warranty it, it will be expensive because they only make disc brake frames in the defy lineup.

    I am thinking that their first step is to say it is the owner fault regardless of what happened. If the owner accepts it then they just saved a warranty claim, if not, they go to the next step.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    Giant still has the frame, I guess when I told the LBS that I had some experts look a the frame and they laughed at their accident claim they decided to look at it too. So, there is a chance they will reverse themselves, but I am not hopeful. They no longer make the frame so even if they warranty it, it will be expensive because they only make disc brake frames in the defy lineup.
    Meh. They have options. They probably have replacement frames on hand. Or they could repair it.

    On a similar note, a friend of mine had some quite old Zipp wheels. Aluminum rim/carbon style. He cracked a hub. When he went to get a new hub, he found out that hub had a known issue. And it wasn't made anymore, nor was there any hub/spoke combination available. They gave him a brand new $3000 NSW full carbon wheelset, shipped free. THAT is customer service.
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  21. #46
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    "The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame."

    Actually, it is in the manufacturer's interest to warrant the frame so as to avoid a public relations nightmare. In general, most manufacturers bend over backwards to make the customer happy, as the cost of a new frame is minimal compared to the cost of bad publicity.

    In the five years I ran the warranty department at Klein (mid-90s) we were taken to small claims court once. In those days, we required any warranty claim to be shipped to us for our engineers to inspect. This was an obviously crashed mountain bike (downtube and head tube both crumpled before the head tube tore off) but the customer sued us in state court (NH, IIRC) under a law that requires a product to be "suitable for the use for which it is sold". We sent the local sales rep to court, armed with the engineer's inspection report. The judge ruled in our favor as the plaintiff admitted that he had "ridden the bike hard for four or five years" before it broke. The judges decision indicated that he felt that the evidence showed that the bike was suitable for the use for which it had been sold.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    well then have them sign an affidavit saying so, listing their credentials

    and hey I 100% sympathize with you, based on what limited info I have. I'd feel kinda powerless as a consumer on this issue.

    only thing else I'd suggest is exhaust all reasonable avenues for a solution before engaging in an online feedback rampage. It could just be some middle-level F-up and the MFR might still be coaxed to a reasonable solution if treated with respect, patience and reason.
    I agree, they may do the right thing eventually. However, being basically called a liar by Giant is not the best way to treat your customer.

    Also, per Giant's policy, I am not able to talk directly to Giant, just the LBS. Which makes this interaction more frustrating. The LBS is clueless about failure mechanics and is just relaying info from Giant.

    I think this experience is valuable to know about when you are looking at a new Giant at your LBS and they are touting the lifetime warranty on the frame and fork. I remember when I bought the bike it was the clincher for me.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    "The issue relying on the manufacturer to evaluate the failure presents a big conflict of interest. It is of VERY little interest for them to warrant a frame."

    Actually, it is in the manufacturer's interest to warrant the frame so as to avoid a public relations nightmare. In general, most manufacturers bend over backwards to make the customer happy, as the cost of a new frame is minimal compared to the cost of bad publicity.

    In the five years I ran the warranty department at Klein (mid-90s) we were taken to small claims court once. In those days, we required any warranty claim to be shipped to us for our engineers to inspect. This was an obviously crashed mountain bike (downtube and head tube both crumpled before the head tube tore off) but the customer sued us in state court (NH, IIRC) under a law that requires a product to be "suitable for the use for which it is sold". We sent the local sales rep to court, armed with the engineer's inspection report. The judge ruled in our favor as the plaintiff admitted that he had "ridden the bike hard for four or five years" before it broke. The judges decision indicated that he felt that the evidence showed that the bike was suitable for the use for which it had been sold.
    What happened to Klein? Do they still exist, they made some really nice frames.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    What happened to Klein? Do they still exist, they made some really nice frames.
    Trek bought them. Many years ago. Took their technology then eliminated the brand.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    What happened to Klein? Do they still exist, they made some really nice frames.
    We were purchased by Trek in 1995 (I kept my job until the Waterloo HQ took it over in 1998). Gary had mortgaged the company to the hilt in the early 90s in order to work with Alcoa to come up with a new aluminum alloy for the frames (we called it "Gradient" tubing, Trek called it "ZR9000") but then had tooling issues working with the new tubing. Those issues caused us to be months late in deliveries. However, because we had displayed the prototypes at the bike shows there had been a tremendous number of orders placed for the bikes. When the bikes were months late, we lost half of our dealers. The banks were demanding their money and we didn't have it.

    Trek closed the Chehalis plant in 2000, moving the production equipment to Waterloo. They continued production of Klein bikes until 2007 or 8, IIRC - but the writing was on the wall for expensive aluminum racing bikes. The cost of manufacture was much greater than carbon and the market was demanding carbon, so the brand died off. The name still appears on the side of the boxes Trek bikes are shipped in, along with all the other brands that Trek owns.
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