Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 126
  1. #51
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    5,875
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I think that is what made me so angry. They were saying I crashed the bike, when I didn't, based on a photo of a tiny crack.

    In the end, I will probably get the frame repaired and move on. I have a couple of quotes of $200 for the repair.

    Giant still has the frame, I guess when I told the LBS that I had some experts look a the frame and they laughed at their accident claim they decided to look at it too. So, there is a chance they will reverse themselves, but I am not hopeful. They no longer make the frame so even if they warranty it, it will be expensive because they only make disc brake frames in the defy lineup.

    I am thinking that their first step is to say it is the owner fault regardless of what happened. If the owner accepts it then they just saved a warranty claim, if not, they go to the next step.
    well the good news is that bottom bracket repair is fairly easy, they just lay more carbon layers on it, and $200 is a very reasonable price vs other options for you. I'd bite the bullet at $200

  2. #52
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    5,875
    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    That is key. Civil court is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". You just need to convince a judge that there's a 51% chance you're correct.
    If you can get a couple independent sources to say that it wasn't user damage, you're likely to win. The manufacturers claim is going to be biased.
    Small claims costs around $50-$75 and a day off work. You don't have much to lose.

    I'm not sure if they're who you'd sue, or Giant. Giant is the one making the warranty. I don't know if the LBS has liability.
    I would think suing Giant would be a better option. They're going to incur a lot of expense flying someone in to argue the case. Pressuring them to settle.
    In a big metro, you can just file a small claims online. For expert evidence, I'd get a local carbon repair shop to write up an affidavit what they think caused the damage, probably need to pay them some money for this, and based on that go from there to see if you'd stand a chance in court.

    I think you could sue Giant too if Giant is sold in the same county where the Court has jurisdiction. It's gonna cost a day's worth of work (maybe good time to use a floating vacation), some efiling fee, and some expert evaluation fee. I know if it where me, and I'm convinced it's not my fault, and if I can get a local carbon repair shop to evaluate and determine it's not my fault in an affidavit, then I'd take it to small claims and let the judge decide

    on a related note, i've had to use a local carbon repair shop to write me an affidavit saying that my damaged (not visibly broken) carbon frame, that was involved in an accident with a car, couldn't be safely repaired, and that damage may already happened even if not visible to the eyes, and thus this would put the frame at risk of failing earlier than otherwise. This affidavit alone got the insurance co. of the driver to pay for a new bike (just over 10k), when initially the insurance co. suggested that they would pay for me to repair it (and no way I' was going to want to accept my 10k bike being repaired!). I also reckon for a car insurance co., 10k is chump change and they are not going to think too hard especially if you can get some expert evidence to support your claim. It's really a matter of "how hard do you want to fight it"
    Last edited by aclinjury; 05-04-2018 at 09:16 AM.

  3. #53
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    We were purchased by Trek in 1995 (I kept my job until the Waterloo HQ took it over in 1998). Gary had mortgaged the company to the hilt in the early 90s in order to work with Alcoa to come up with a new aluminum alloy for the frames (we called it "Gradient" tubing, Trek called it "ZR9000") but then had tooling issues working with the new tubing. Those issues caused us to be months late in deliveries. However, because we had displayed the prototypes at the bike shows there had been a tremendous number of orders placed for the bikes. When the bikes were months late, we lost half of our dealers. The banks were demanding their money and we didn't have it.

    Trek closed the Chehalis plant in 2000, moving the production equipment to Waterloo. They continued production of Klein bikes until 2007 or 8, IIRC - but the writing was on the wall for expensive aluminum racing bikes. The cost of manufacture was much greater than carbon and the market was demanding carbon, so the brand died off. The name still appears on the side of the boxes Trek bikes are shipped in, along with all the other brands that Trek owns.

    That sucks. A riding buddy of mine had one and he loved it.

  4. #54
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: jspharmd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,195
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    What? Looks to me like it's been ridden in the rain and not cleaned, and also over lubed but that's not abrasion.
    I agree that it doesn't look like abrasion to me, but Z'mer is right to some extent. Don't give them any reason the "think" you could have crashed the bike. Thoroughly clean it and give the impression that you meticulously maintain your bike and will not tolerate them suggesting that you crashed it.

    Crossing my fingers now, but I've had two Trek MTB frames warrantied. It was almost no questions asked warranty. Maybe my bike shop does a better job of explaining to the manufacturer that the crack was not my fault. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe Trek does a better job honoring their warranty. Who knows.

  5. #55
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    30
    I think Trek is a better manufacturer and they also provide better service to their customers. I am sure their not perfect, but I have owned a bunch of trek bikes over the years including a light postal frame bike and I never had an issue, period.

  6. #56
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,026
    Quote Originally Posted by jspharmd View Post
    I agree that it doesn't look like abrasion to me, but Z'mer is right to some extent. Don't give them any reason the "think" you could have crashed the bike. Thoroughly clean it and give the impression that you meticulously maintain your bike and will not tolerate them suggesting that you crashed it.

    Crossing my fingers now, but I've had two Trek MTB frames warrantied. It was almost no questions asked warranty. Maybe my bike shop does a better job of explaining to the manufacturer that the crack was not my fault. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe Trek does a better job honoring their warranty. Who knows.
    No one ever starts threads when their warranty is covered and the process is painless, do they?
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  7. #57
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    No one ever starts threads when their warranty is covered and the process is painless, do they?

    If it ever happens to me, I will be the first!


  8. #58
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: BCSaltchucker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,849
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    No one ever starts threads when their warranty is covered and the process is painless, do they?
    more laughable sniping from cxw

    i've read countless posts on here of folks reporting successful warranty claims. I've mentioned the one I did dozen times on here (Klein). And there is still the significant inconvenience/delay/hit to confidence in the bike the owner suffers even if they achieve a no cost replacement.

    however I do agree that folks need to be respectful and patient with manufacturers, giving them a fair chance to do the right thing before posting negativity on the net about it
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 05-04-2018 at 11:11 AM.
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

  9. #59
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    209
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I just about spit a mouthful of coffee all over my keyboard when I read this. Where do you come up w/ this ****?
    No kidding, this guy takes the cake. I have two full carbon mountain bikes and I have gone down dozens of times, I’ve torn my meniscus but never broke a frame.
    Last edited by jaggrin; 05-04-2018 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Spelling

  10. #60
    Cycling Addict
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    3,784
    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    No kidding, this guy takes the cake. I have two full carbon mountain bikes and I have gone down dozens of times, I’ve torn my meniscus but never broke a frame.
    I have an '89 Kestrel MXZ and once I t-boned a tree stump so hard that the rear derailleur cable popped out of the frame guides. That's right - the frame (probably the most overbuilt carbon mountain bike ever) flexed so much in the impact that the cable popped out of the guides. No bent fork, no bent wheel, no crumpled downtube/headtube (which certainly would have happened with a steel or aluminum frame with that hard of an impact) - all I had to do was get out a 5mm allen wrench and re-adjust the derailleur.

    Funny - there is a strain of sativa heavy cannabis great for rides called "Allen Wrench". I have stopped for several "headset adjustments" using that...
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  11. #61
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,299
    Quote Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    Why not? Not only is that possible, it happens to me quite often.
    The question here is, do you think a carbon frame should be able to take a pebble strike without cracking.

    And if yes to the above, should a bike frame maker cover this under warranty?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  12. #62
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I agree, they may do the right thing eventually.
    Well, I hope for you they will do that, but I'm not certain. These stories about denied warranty claims - be it by Trek or Giant - are amazing.

    Manufacturers simply looking at a picture and deciding that the damage is caused by user error or an accident. No further analysis necessary.

    Giant, one of the biggest, most experienced builders of carbon frames cannot properly design a carbon frame. (This is actually the most amazing thing I learned.)

    Manufacturers claim user error or an accident when it's perfectly clear for experts that it's obviously not only a manufacturing but also a design flaw. A stupid commercial move if I've ever seen one.

    Imagine the owner going to court and winning (a certainty, given the testimony of the carbon experts). In the age of Facebook, forums and the internet the whole cycling community will know the same day that a) Giant cannot properly design a frame; b) Giant cannot properly manufacture a frame: c) the Giant warranty is bogus!

    Manufacturers of racebikes seem to live on another planet.

    By the way BelgianHammer is wrong. One of my friends rides an aluminum Allez, and after 3 yrs - not more - the chainstay on the side of the derailleur broke, a clear break right where the weld next to the derailleur is (warranty period expired, bad luck for him).
    Last edited by HFroller; 05-04-2018 at 12:12 PM.

  13. #63
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    I have an '89 Kestrel MXZ and once I t-boned a tree stump so hard that the rear derailleur cable popped out of the frame guides. That's right - the frame (probably the most overbuilt carbon mountain bike ever) flexed so much in the impact that the cable popped out of the guides. No bent fork, no bent wheel, no crumpled downtube/headtube (which certainly would have happened with a steel or aluminum frame with that hard of an impact) - all I had to do was get out a 5mm allen wrench and re-adjust the derailleur.

    Funny - there is a strain of sativa heavy cannabis great for rides called "Allen Wrench". I have stopped for several "headset adjustments" using that...
    That reminds me, I was hit head on by a car when I was riding the Kestrel in 1998. It broke the fork but the frame was fine. After healing up, I put a new fork (see the clear finish carbon fork) and headset in it and rode if for another 10k miles. Just rebuilt it using the components from the cracked Giant frame and is still working. Kestrel was not messing around with their designs.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails GIANT denies warranty on obvious manufacturing defect for 2014 Defy Advanced 1-5ca16a05-35ba-41b0-b848-b2d6ddfa06e2.jpg  

  14. #64
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    Well, I hope for you they will do that, but I'm not certain. These stories about denied warranty claims - be it by Trek or Giant - are amazing.

    Manufacturers simply looking at a picture and deciding that the damage is caused by user error or an accident. No further analysis necessary.

    Giant, one of the biggest, most experienced builders of carbon frames cannot properly design a carbon frame. (This is actually the most amazing thing I learned.)

    Manufacturers claim user error or an accident when it's perfectly clear for experts that it's obviously not only a manufacturing but also a design flaw. A stupid commercial move if I've ever seen one.

    Imagine the owner going to court and winning (a certainty, given the testimony of the carbon experts). In the age of Facebook, forums and the internet the whole cycling community will know the same day that a) Giant cannot properly design a frame; b) Giant cannot properly manufacture a frame: c) the Giant warranty is bogus!

    Manufacturers of racebikes seem to live on another planet.

    By the way BelgianHammer is wrong. One of my friends rides an aluminum Allez, and after 3 yrs - not more - the chainstay on the side of the derailleur broke, a clear break right where the weld next to the derailleur is (warranty period expired, bad luck for him).
    I am planning on a repair and avoiding Giant in the future. My wife has a 2014 Giant Defy Advanced SL-1 also. I really liked the frame, but I am done with them for our bikes.

    I will probably just go with Canyon for our next bikes and expect no warranty on the frame. Canyon is the only manufacturer that does 100% xray inspection on their forks during assembly. The claim they reject between 0.5 -1%.

    https://www.bikebiz.com/retail/why-i...ites-for-flaws

    If a fork fails you are forked!

  15. #65
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I will probably just go with Canyon for our next bikes
    I don't know where you live, but in Europe the Canyon warranty period is 6 yrs (with the usual conditions, though).

  16. #66
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    I don't know where you live, but in Europe the Canyon warranty period is 6 yrs (with the usual conditions, though).
    Giant claims lifetime, I am not counting on either company living up to their claims. However, the Canyon bike is cheaper so the broken frame is already priced in!

  17. #67
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,026
    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    more laughable sniping from cxw

    i've read countless posts on here of folks reporting successful warranty claims. I've mentioned the one I did dozen times on here (Klein). And there is still the significant inconvenience/delay/hit to confidence in the bike the owner suffers even if they achieve a no cost replacement.

    however I do agree that folks need to be respectful and patient with manufacturers, giving them a fair chance to do the right thing before posting negativity on the net about it
    'Laughable sniping'? WTF? Do yourself a favor and put me on your ignore list, then you won't have to worry about getting butthurt over my posts.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  18. #68
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    'Laughable sniping'? WTF? Do yourself a favor and put me on your ignore list, then you won't have to worry about getting butthurt over my posts.
    Most of the people on this forum need their comfort puppies, coloring books, play dough and safe spaces to make it through the day let alone s some dialogue.
    Last edited by itsnotmyparty; 05-04-2018 at 04:07 PM. Reason: Adding

  19. #69
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    7,557
    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unreal, not another one! Dam#, Paul H, I feel for you. Good thing you didn't keep riding that, or other cracks, from stressing too much at that junction, might have happened at other locations. As carbon becomes more prevalent, finally people will start realizing what "crack propagation" truly means. Countless hours/weeks argument over this inside a large aircraft manufacturer, my head hurts thinking about it.

    I hope Giant steps up.....just like for the other poster I hope Trek steps up (only difference with the Trek poster was he never caught the beginning of the crack in the stay, which reached the point of a 'Cat Failure', which then took out other areas in the worst way possible).

    Man, you all wonder why people---specifically those who either know and/or who have worked with carbon---still express hesitation when dealing with carbon frames. Yes, advances have been made, but nowhere near what needs to be done. You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.
    Your observations to not stand up to reality. Many of us have had high end aluminum mountain bike frames crack/fail in various places. The primary cause was the same as it is with carbon frames. We all want bikes that weigh in below current minimums.

    I've built and sold many high performance rudders, centerboards, mast spreaders, tillers, mast steps and vang levers from both carbon and carbon / kevlar hybrids and can tell you that we were involved in doing the same thing. We continued to build ever lighter iterations until we began seeing failures and we'd either redesign or back off a couple of generations.

    There are millions of cabon bike frames out there and the failure rate is not excessive by any standard. These frame manufacturers that do not honor warrantees for legitimate design and/or manufacturing problems are crapping in their own nest.

    I've been on carbon frames for at least 15 years without a single failure and can't recall any of my friends having any issues related to carbon frames.

  20. #70
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    293
    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    You simply do not see this type of thing, ever, in steel and ti and even aluminum framing, for any industry. We never saw it. But implementing carbon these past 6-7 years? See it all the time now. And it is scary.
    Anyone remember Clark*Kent? Manitou Aluminum?

  21. #71
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,084
    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Your observations to not stand up to reality. Many of us have had high end aluminum mountain bike frames crack/fail in various places. The primary cause was the same as it is with carbon frames. We all want bikes that weigh in below current minimums.

    I've built and sold many high performance rudders, centerboards, mast spreaders, tillers, mast steps and vang levers from both carbon and carbon / kevlar hybrids and can tell you that we were involved in doing the same thing. We continued to build ever lighter iterations until we began seeing failures and we'd either redesign or back off a couple of generations.

    There are millions of cabon bike frames out there and the failure rate is not excessive by any standard. These frame manufacturers that do not honor warrantees for legitimate design and/or manufacturing problems are crapping in their own nest.

    I've been on carbon frames for at least 15 years without a single failure and can't recall any of my friends having any issues related to carbon frames.
    Yes!

    For anyone skeptical about the integrity of carbon frames, just google Santa Cruz carbon frame test videos. The first one I viewed was about 8 yrs ago and they compared carbon and aluminum frames using everything from calibrated instruments to walking frame against concrete structure. The strength of carbon is amazing.

    Sorry to hear about this bad customer service from Giant.

  22. #72
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    5,875
    Quote Originally Posted by BacDoc View Post
    Yes!

    For anyone skeptical about the integrity of carbon frames, just google Santa Cruz carbon frame test videos. The first one I viewed was about 8 yrs ago and they compared carbon and aluminum frames using everything from calibrated instruments to walking frame against concrete structure. The strength of carbon is amazing.

    Sorry to hear about this bad customer service from Giant.
    and that infamous Santa Cruz test is a little misleading. Carbon fiber of that test frame was compromised way before it eventually failed catastrophically. But looking from the outside from a distance, one wouldn't notice it. Put it under xray and ultrasound scan probably would have revealed a boatload of fiber fraying, stress riser points, and voids between the layers. That test had a lot of bro science and made for a good selling point for Santa Cruz at the time, who was the first to come out with carbon mtb frame.

  23. #73
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    13,026
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    and that infamous Santa Cruz test is a little misleading. Carbon fiber of that test frame was compromised way before it eventually failed catastrophically. But looking from the outside from a distance, one wouldn't notice it. Put it under xray and ultrasound scan probably would have revealed a boatload of fiber fraying, stress riser points, and voids between the layers. That test had a lot of bro science and made for a good selling point for Santa Cruz at the time, who was the first to come out with carbon mtb frame.
    Uhhhhmmmmm...
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  24. #74
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    209
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    and that infamous Santa Cruz test is a little misleading. Carbon fiber of that test frame was compromised way before it eventually failed catastrophically. But looking from the outside from a distance, one wouldn't notice it. Put it under xray and ultrasound scan probably would have revealed a boatload of fiber fraying, stress riser points, and voids between the layers. That test had a lot of bro science and made for a good selling point for Santa Cruz at the time, who was the first to come out with carbon mtb frame.
    Nothing like throwing some baseless, unsubstantiated dribble out there.

  25. #75
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    293
    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Uhhhhmmmmm...
    Coughkestrelcough

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-29-2014, 09:47 AM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-29-2013, 03:44 PM
  3. Giant Defy 1 Vs. Defy Advanced 3
    By Uphill70 in forum General Cycling Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-22-2013, 04:34 PM
  4. 2010 defy advanced 2 or 2011 defy advanced 3?
    By Defy in forum Bikes, Frames and Forks
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-04-2012, 05:20 PM
  5. Giant Defy or Defy Advanced for Big Guy?
    By WoodyCT in forum Bikes, Frames and Forks
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-20-2009, 07:54 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.