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  1. #26
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    So I see you've discovered that they have your trainer listed. That means they have a power curve calculated for it. Also if you don't have a powertap you shouldn't be doing that work out. Have you read the description for that workout? It explicitly tells you to only do it if you have a power meter and are trying to set a power curve for their trainer. No powertap then don't do that workout period. Do any other workout on their just not that one. I'm sorry if I'm being a little gruff but that workout is straight out not for you. http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/w.../8-minute-test. Try that workout instead. It will not be easy but you should be able to hit the power numbers it wants. The point in that workout is to see how strong you are. Read the directions, follow the onscreen instructions and please don't do that "TrainerPowerCurveMeasurement" again.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattintheCrown View Post
    Ok, well, I tried on my trainer's 3rd level last night. It went somewhat better, in that it was possible for me to get to a higher power level before hitting my top speed, but I was still not able to get anywhere near 500W. In fact, I couldn't quite get to 380W. It's unclear to me whether one is supposed to be able to complete this training sequence. I also noticed that there is text instruction which I didn't pick up the first time due to my playing a video not on fullscreen mode. The text mentions mph levels that correspond to the power levels. The mph levels seem to be way low compared to the effort I put out (for example, the 25 mph level had me pedaling at very near my full physical capability, whereas I can crank out 25 mph on my bike without too much trouble). Not sure what this means.
    As to your speed being off - check the devices tab on the client.. Under your speed/cadence sensor config, it will show your wheel speed (in mph) - does that agree with your computer? If not the wheel size is probably off. (At the very bottom of the same config tab - keep scrolling.) For whatever reason, my Garmin Edge 305 has a computed (based on GPS) wheel size of 1091 or so - default was 2098. Once I adjusted TR down to 1091, the speed matched between my 305 and TR. I don't get it, haven't tried to make sense out of it, and frankly, don't care why. I know the 305 agrees with everybody I've ever ridden with and compared speed/distance with. In fact, when I first mounted it, I still had a flight deck installed and they agreed as well.

    Ditto the power number. I'm not sure I have the right trainer configured. The numbers look disappointingly low. But again - who cares? If, thru regular training I can see improvements in my FTP, then I'm getting stronger and faster. And bottom line - that's all I want... If you wanna hang out in the coffee shop and brag about your 500 watt FTP, then drop some coin on a real power-meter.

    I've only been using TR a week, but already the benefits are clear and obvious to me. And it's $10 a month...

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClancyO View Post
    As to your speed being off - check the devices tab on the client.. Under your speed/cadence sensor config, it will show your wheel speed (in mph) - does that agree with your computer?
    Yeah; I set it the same way I set my 500. 3003mm in my case. I guess the workout I was running just works with a powermeter. My mistake.

    Ditto the power number. I'm not sure I have the right trainer configured. The numbers look disappointingly low. But again - who cares? If, thru regular training I can see improvements in my FTP, then I'm getting stronger and faster. And bottom line - that's all I want... If you wanna hang out in the coffee shop and brag about your 500 watt FTP, then drop some coin on a real power-meter.

    I've only been using TR a week, but already the benefits are clear and obvious to me. And it's $10 a month...
    This I'll have to see about when running another workout. But I totally agree; I don't care whether the wattage is accurate necessarily, just that it is precise enough to enable me to increase my power output and ride stronger. I'm not sure I'm ready to do the "8 minute test" jeff mentioned; I'm trying to ease both my ass and my knees into this after being off for several months (last season ended prematurely due to acute knee pain), and an hour is a bit longer than I'm looking to ride just yet.

  4. #29
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    I didn't feel 'prepared' for the 8 minute test either (my third 'ride' - and the first one returned no power at all, so really only my second) - but I did it anyway to establish a baseline.

    It's kinda' like intentionally NOT getting on the scale at the start of a diet - By the time you eventually do, you've already lost weight (hopefully) but then you don't know 'how far you've come'..

    Do the 8 minute test anyway - it will establish a baseline for the rest of the workouts. And besides, it's only 21 minutes of REAL effort - and the first 5 of that is just warm-up/clearing.. Good luck!

  5. #30
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    You can just start with the default FTP setting of 200 and work up or down from there if it seems too hard or easy. You'll know quickly if it is set too high. As you note, the relative part is what really matters rather than the absolute power reading, although it is fun to see that too.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattintheCrown View Post
    Yeah, it is a calibration workout: "TrainerPowerCurveMeasurement". It was my impression that I should run that one to get.. uh.. my trainer's power curve? I guess that's what it's for, but it's not real clear, possibly because I haven't been able to finish it. Maybe I should just ignore it an move on to regular workouts.
    Sorry for the late reply on this.

    Yah, that's not a workout. That's just something for us to point people to with Trainers we don't have who also have power meters. It helps us generate power curves for those trainers.

    It shouldn't be used as a workout though. Sorry about the confusion. I just updated the description of the workout to be more clear.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePearson View Post
    We try hard! If you have any questions I'm here to answer them.

    -Nate
    TrainerRoad co-founder
    Nate,
    Any chance of settings for the Minoura Action Roller Advance? if so you've got another customer.
    Chris

  8. #33
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    After using this for some time, I really like it. I'm getting in cardiovascular shape at the moment by running the "homers nose" workout. I'll say this: when you set the software up, it asks you for a FTP, which it says to set at 200 if you don't know what to set it at. IMO, 200 assumes you're quite an ass-kicker. If you're not in good shape, set it much lower. Of course, running the tests will establish an FTP for you, so run that ASAP.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripton View Post
    Nate,
    Any chance of settings for the Minoura Action Roller Advance? if so you've got another customer.
    Chris
    Yah, we just need a couple rides with a power meter on those rollers. We have a workout called "power curve measurement" that you can do to help generate the curve.

    If you have access to one, you could sign up and do that ride for us and let us know. We'll then figure out the curve and add it.

    -Nate

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattintheCrown View Post
    After using this for some time, I really like it. I'm getting in cardiovascular shape at the moment by running the "homers nose" workout. I'll say this: when you set the software up, it asks you for a FTP, which it says to set at 200 if you don't know what to set it at. IMO, 200 assumes you're quite an ass-kicker. If you're not in good shape, set it much lower. Of course, running the tests will establish an FTP for you, so run that ASAP.
    Yah, everyone should do a test first. It's really hard for us to estimate FTP of someone by age and sex.

    We kinda struggled with what the default is. We should probably guide new people to a test a little easier than we do now. We kind of just throw all the workouts at you right now. It would be nice to explain why we do a test and what it does.

    Actually, that's a really good idea! Thanks for the feed back man .

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePearson View Post
    Yah, we just need a couple rides with a power meter on those rollers. We have a workout called "power curve measurement" that you can do to help generate the curve.

    If you have access to one, you could sign up and do that ride for us and let us know. We'll then figure out the curve and add it.

    -Nate
    I'll look into whether anyone in my club has one I could borrow for a few days.

  12. #37
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    Hey Nate, here's a suggestion: add some sort of calories-burned functionality to this program. I'm strictly controlling my caloric intake, and it's therefore essential for me to have some idea how many calories I'm burning so I know how much to eat. You could use average heart rate, age, and weight to make an estimate, and it would save users the trouble of looking it up every time.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattintheCrown View Post
    Hey Nate, here's a suggestion: add some sort of calories-burned functionality to this program. I'm strictly controlling my caloric intake, and it's therefore essential for me to have some idea how many calories I'm burning so I know how much to eat. You could use average heart rate, age, and weight to make an estimate, and it would save users the trouble of looking it up every time.
    Estimating calories would be harder than looking at Kilojoules.. 1kj pretty much equals 1 calorie.

    So if you look at a workout where you burned 1200kj you can say you burned 1200 calories. The total KJ used is already provided at the end of the workout too.
    ~ Long Live Long Rides~

  14. #39
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    zoso is exactly right.

    Here's the math:

    1 calorie = 4.184 kJ

    Cyclists are between 23-25% efficient (can vary a bit).

    For every kJ your power meter picks up, you burn about 1 calorie if you are 24% efficient.

    Even though it takes 4 kj to burn a calorie, you're only picking up about 24% of those kJ that you are actually using while riding. The rest is lost in metabolic stuff and heat expenditure.

    And that's why 1 kJ is about equal to 1 calorie.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePearson View Post
    zoso is exactly right.

    Here's the math:

    1 calorie = 4.184 kJ

    Cyclists are between 23-25% efficient (can vary a bit).

    For every kJ your power meter picks up, you burn about 1 calorie if you are 24% efficient.

    Even though it takes 4 kj to burn a calorie, you're only picking up about 24% of those kJ that you are actually using while riding. The rest is lost in metabolic stuff and heat expenditure.

    And that's why 1 kJ is about equal to 1 calorie.
    Hmm. I had been attempting to figure my calories via a watt-hour to calorie conversion. For example, I had registered 77W over 60 minutes doing Homers Nose. 77W = 66 calories, and a human is supposedly ~25% efficient. So I figure 264kcal, give or take (same workout had 277Kj).

    But then, I figured calories burned via heart rate. I averaged 148bpm over that hour, and heartrate-based calorie calculators tell me I'm burning ~850kcal.

    So what's right? I know that efficiency depends on optimal cadence, so it doesn't surprise me that I'd be well under the cited 24% efficiency doing a workout like Homers Nose (where the whole point is spinning low power, high cadence), but even so, 264 and 850 is a monstrous gap. It seems to me that heartrate might be a better gauge of calories burned, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

  16. #41
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    If you're using a power meter I suspect that the kJ will be the more accurate number. 800 calories for homers nose is a TON.

    You'll want to add a few kJ if you're using a power tap compared to a quarq or SRM. You lose some more power in the drive train.

    Even if you're using VirtualPower I still think it would be closer in most cases than HR based calorie estimates.

    Estimating calories from HR is tricky. There's a long thread over on slowtwitch about this, but the consensus in the end (based on studies) was that kJ was more accurate than HR for estimating calories burned.

    Efficiency changes a bit as you improve, but it's not a big amount. I want to say pros are closer to the 25% range and age groupers are closer to the 24% range. But, don't quote me on that! That's something that's in the back of my mind but I have no data to back it up!

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePearson View Post
    If you're using a power meter I suspect that the kJ will be the more accurate number. 800 calories for homers nose is a TON.

    You'll want to add a few kJ if you're using a power tap compared to a quarq or SRM. You lose some more power in the drive train.

    Even if you're using VirtualPower I still think it would be closer in most cases than HR based calorie estimates.

    Estimating calories from HR is tricky. There's a long thread over on slowtwitch about this, but the consensus in the end (based on studies) was that kJ was more accurate than HR for estimating calories burned.

    Efficiency changes a bit as you improve, but it's not a big amount. I want to say pros are closer to the 25% range and age groupers are closer to the 24% range. But, don't quote me on that! That's something that's in the back of my mind but I have no data to back it up!
    That's interesting. I don't have a power meter (using virtual power), but you're probably right. 800 calories does sound high to me. That's the funny thing with calorie estimators: I've always found it weird if you search online for calories burned biking, how high the estimates tend to be. The estimates they give you for riding 10-12mph sound high for what you'd burn at 18mph, IMO. This stuff seems to be all over the place. Maybe I split the difference somewhat and assume 300kcal.

  18. #43
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    Knowing the absolute exact number of calories doesn't really matter.
    Consider kilojoules an estimate +/- a few calories. As Nate said it's hard to measure perfectly. Both my Garmin and Polar HRM are much higher in calories burned than in reality.. No way I burned 800 calories in 1 hour riding easy!
    ~ Long Live Long Rides~

  19. #44
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    Yah, that's what I would do if I were you. 300 sounds about right.

    What you can do is kinda track your weight and the estimated calories from TrainerRoad. Then if you think 300 is right and that's like 10% more calories, then apply that across the board to all workouts.

    That might work.

  20. #45
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    Hate to be a continual bother, but I had an issue I wonder if you could help me with. I've been running workouts that have instructions, and I like to watch movies while I do the workout. The problem is, I'm having issues with the text appearing behind the movie, instead of in the forefront. I've tried clicking on the workout last, clicking on the desktop last, even clicking on the movie last, and none of these seems to consistently result in the text being in the forefront. Any advice on this?

  21. #46
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    No problem. Letting us know about this things just lets us make it better in the future.

    Make sure you click on TrainerRoad last. That will do the trick. If you do a controlled test you'll see that this works. I swear!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePearson View Post
    No problem. Letting us know about this things just lets us make it better in the future.

    Make sure you click on TrainerRoad last. That will do the trick. If you do a controlled test you'll see that this works. I swear!
    The actual open workout, or the trainerroad box itself?

  23. #48
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    The actual open workout. So if you're in horizontal it would be the window on the bottom of the screen.

  24. #49
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    From a confirmed indoor trainer hater. . . just did a 90 minute indoor ride yesterday with Lemond Revolution and Trainerroad. Two, maybe even 3 thumbs up. Didn't realize there would be a running commentary to help get you through the workout. Would have laughed out loud when the screen stated that we are being, "ALL BUSINESS!" this workout.

    Rides - TrainerRoad
    Just ride.

  25. #50
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    "Three thumbs up"

    Isn't that the name of some porno? \

    Glad you liked it! We have more cool stuff coming.

    My last day at my day job was Friday so I'll be working on this full time starting Monday. My cohort Reid's last day is next Friday.

    I'm excited to have the extra time to really build this thing out.

    -Nate

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