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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    If you want it to fit right get a proper bike fit.

    If you want to just be kind of ok then read some fit threads and posts and wing it by feel. I did 6000 miles on my first road bike with a fit by reading and feel. It was ok. For my new bike I got a proper fit and it better. More power, less fatigue and more comfort. All marginally so, but it nice to know I am doing better now.
    You don't know how much better you could be. You maybe good but you maybe able to improve 10%. A single fit from a single fitter isn't going to dial you in. Best fit is iterative. Exhaustive trial and error. Every drop, every reach, every setback, saddle height up and down and combinations thereof. Cleat position matters. Bar width matters. Saddle selection matters.


    Its a huge daunting puzzle not easily arrived at.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Lance for example doesn't ride with much saddle setback...but monsters like Hincappie and Boonen sure did with massive setback.
    Yes, fully understand setback is a function of height. There are STA, setback, femur and height considerations, but for the average guy riding a properly sized frame, the seat should not be all the way back on the rail. On a smaller pro sized frame with a steeper STA, you're going to need that seat back to compensate. What I think is preventing some from bumping it up are the multiple and stern warnings to not move the seat forward to adjust for reach and the terrible knee pain repercussions that come with it. While well intentioned, they miss the point that some may be greatly benefited by moving that seat forward and sitting on it correctly. The knees move way back in relation to crank with proper tilt of pelvis...which brings me to another point.... 85% of complaints about uncomfortable seats....guys going through a dozen or them or buying ridiculously wide seats, are all related to incorrect positioning... which no seat in the middle of the bell curve will solve.

    When I stopped being OP and had my fit done a few years ago, my avg cadence went up by 15-20 my bar was lowered by >1cm and my comfort improved dramatically. Instead of pushing from behind the crank, my knees now fell effortlessly like well oiled pistons with each turn of the crank. Shortly thereafter some SI joint and lower back issues I had forever resolved themselves, magically.
    "That pretty much sums it up. I'm 43 and my max is ~178-180. If that HR chart was mine or Froome's, we'd be on the verge of death. But for you it probably looks like a normal workout." -TLG

    LOLOLOL

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    You don't know how much better you could be. You maybe good but you maybe able to improve 10%. A single fit from a single fitter isn't going to dial you in. Best fit is iterative. Exhaustive trial and error. Every drop, every reach, every setback, saddle height up and down and combinations thereof. Cleat position matters. Bar width matters. Saddle selection matters.


    Its a huge daunting puzzle not easily arrived at.
    It is better, but did I say "best"? My fitter adjusted my seat position father aft and raise the seat. This is the opposite direction I had been going on my old bike. Felt a bit off in the first mile or so, but then got more natural. It will take some time see if more adjustments can be made as my body adapts. Also with a different set of bars with less drop I can use the drops more with more comfort. I might able to go slight bit lower on the bars, but too much lower and I will start restricting power. Best for me to get more miles under my belt as I before make too many changes. I already have a pretty aggressive seat to bars drop so key is to find the right tipping point. That said road is still a part time deal for me so the road bike will always feel different from the mtn bike where most of my focus is.
    Joe
    Road Bike - Specialized Venge | MTB - 2018 Specialized Epic - Vassago Verhauen Steel SS - 2013 Santa Cruz 5010

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalbiker View Post
    Go to slowtwitch.com and post a picture of yourself riding it (a video would be even better).

    You'll get some true industry experts giving you advice. About as useful as you can get on the internet, and probably more useful than what you'd get in many shops.
    Ain't that the truth. OTOH this is the same crowd that thinks the Ceepo Shadow-R is the next greatest thing...Good Lord. No wonder the general pubic thinks we are dorks.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    Ain't that the truth. OTOH this is the same crowd that thinks the Ceepo Shadow-R is the next greatest thing...Good Lord. No wonder the general pubic thinks we are dorks.
    And who among the general public can be not we dust on a bicycle? I can drop most college kids on a bike and I am 3x's their age...part of the fun. Of course fat guys think skinny guys in spandex are dorks. We think they are dorks too or we would sit on the couch and drink beer.

  6. #31
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    I got to sniff Lance's saddle one time. When they did that big promotional ride across America for cancer research. I volunteered to help out, and they assigned a bunch of us to watch bikes as the group got up to make some speeches. I watched LA's bike.

    I would swear it was not a 58, but maybe it is just my belief that someone 5'9" should be on a 54 or 56 that is affecting my memory.

  7. #32
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    Some search results Lance's bike:

    https://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/ar...-series-25622/ Top tube length: 573mm (horizontal)

    www.cyclingnews.com presents 2009 Pro Bikes (Top tube length: 572mm)

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJay View Post
    I got to sniff Lance's saddle one time. When they did that big promotional ride across America for cancer research. I volunteered to help out, and they assigned a bunch of us to watch bikes as the group got up to make some speeches. I watched LA's bike.

    I would swear it was not a 58, but maybe it is just my belief that someone 5'9" should be on a 54 or 56 that is affecting my memory.
    He rode a 58cm Madone " for all his TdF wins. Almost a pedestrian fit for a top racer and one size up from any rider his size in the peloton:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Making sure that my bike won't fit me?-lances-recent-bike.jpg  

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    He rode a 58cm Madone " for all his TdF wins. Almost a pedestrian fit for a top racer and one size up from any rider his size in the peloton:
    What wins?
    Oh my, a troll who doesn't know the difference between your and you're. What will they think of next?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    He rode a 58cm Madone " for all his TdF wins. Almost a pedestrian fit for a top racer and one size up from any rider his size in the peloton:
    I wonder if this was some calculated tradeoff in getting oxygen into the body versus aero benefits. I realize this is the tradeoff for some, but I wonder if in this case, it was more important to get every bit of oxygen for the EPO-engine and not worry about conserving it as much. or am I reading much into it? When did he have that **** put into his back?
    "That pretty much sums it up. I'm 43 and my max is ~178-180. If that HR chart was mine or Froome's, we'd be on the verge of death. But for you it probably looks like a normal workout." -TLG

    LOLOLOL

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJay View Post
    I got to sniff Lance's saddle one time.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    I wonder if this was some calculated tradeoff in getting oxygen into the body versus aero benefits. I realize this is the tradeoff for some, but I wonder if in this case, it was more important to get every bit of oxygen for the EPO-engine and not worry about conserving it as much. or am I reading much into it? When did he have that **** put into his back?
    Maybe a small percentage. Probably more a function of his riding most of the time in the cocoon of the peloton and in the draft and he was more dominant in climbing stages where a higher handlebar isn't a hindrance.

    He just isn't a real flexible dude and got more aero by riding more stretched out than slammed. I honestly subscribe to his bike fit and how I ride as well....stretched out but not slammed. Lance could get a flatish back when needed and I can too or close.

    Fit is part philosophy and part physiology. Good riders 'choose' particular fit. Lance was fanatical about his fit btw...notorious for it. Pro bike mechanics had to be on their game when setting up his bikes.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    She is hot, had her 15 minutes of fame and then gone.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    LOL. There is a reason you are perplexed, you miss the point and don't know much about fit.
    Seriously? So you're going to tell me that a 20-30 year old pro cyclist should be fitted the same as a 60+ recreational cyclist? It's people who think like this that is the reason so many beginners give up the sport. Not everybody has the same flexibility and strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    I can drop most college kids on a bike and I am 3x's their age...part of the fun.
    Sure. This proves in the end, it's all about the engine, not the bike. I just love smoking a 20 something guy on a hill with his $8,000 bike and $3,000 carbon wheels.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9W9W View Post
    When I pull up to a cafe of LBS the amount of bikes I see with seats slammed all the way back on the rails and +15 90mm stems is outrageous. It's not even the stems but the amount of seats that are all the way back on the rails is so prevalent I wonder if they are built differently. No wonder they sit and mash the pedals needing to take breaks frequently.
    I don't know what having the seat slammed back has to do with having to mash the pedals and take breaks frequently. I have my seat slammed back because that is what I find feels best. I don't need to mash, nor do I need to take frequent breaks. If I move the saddle forward, I feel cramped in the cockpit. I am not saying this is the optimal saddle position for everybody. But for me at least, if I slide my saddle forward, it puts my knees forward of KOPS. Now I know what you're about to say about KOPS not being gospel, but for most recreational riders, you want to be at KOPS or behind it, not forward of it. Sure, pros can get away with being forward of KOPS. For the rest of us, it is only asking for knee injury down the road.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    And who among the general public can be not we dust on a bicycle? I can drop most college kids on a bike and I am 3x's their age...part of the fun. Of course fat guys think skinny guys in spandex are dorks. We think they are dorks too or we would sit on the couch and drink beer.
    I'm not following you here. My post was TIC. I wouldn't ride the Ceepo though. Fugly!

  16. #41
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    I can't help you either woody, because this isn't a health forum.
    But please know many people that have tourettes have tics but not unheard of for people with tourettes to not have tics.
    Yes, you can get a tic on a bike if not careful.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Seriously? So you're going to tell me that a 20-30 year old pro cyclist should be fitted the same as a 60+ recreational cyclist? It's people who think like this that is the reason so many beginners give up the sport. Not everybody has the same flexibility and strength.



    Sure. This proves in the end, it's all about the engine, not the bike. I just love smoking a 20 something guy on a hill with his $8,000 bike and $3,000 carbon wheels.



    I don't know what having the seat slammed back has to do with having to mash the pedals and take breaks frequently. I have my seat slammed back because that is what I find feels best. I don't need to mash, nor do I need to take frequent breaks. If I move the saddle forward, I feel cramped in the cockpit. I am not saying this is the optimal saddle position for everybody. But for me at least, if I slide my saddle forward, it puts my knees forward of KOPS. Now I know what you're about to say about KOPS not being gospel, but for most recreational riders, you want to be at KOPS or behind it, not forward of it. Sure, pros can get away with being forward of KOPS. For the rest of us, it is only asking for knee injury down the road.
    a suggestion is, grease your saddle rails, loosen the saddle clamp bolts and ride the bike with a sliding saddle. You will be surprised by how you can move both forward and behind KOPS to find the sweet spot.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    I can't help you either woody, because this isn't a health forum.
    But please know many people that have tourettes have tics but not unheard of for people with tourettes to not have tics.
    Yes, you can get a tic on a bike if not careful.
    Ha! I laughed...I'll be careful but, I fear there is no hope for me. :-)

  19. #44
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    I think you've already received the best advise here. If you are serious about getting the bike set up as good as it can be, pay the bucks to get fitted by a professional. The 56 may or may not be the ideal size for you (all 56's are not created equal), but a competent fitter will be able to set you up on it as good as it's going to get. You may not have to, but be prepared to buy a new stem and/or seat post. There's no free lunch. No magic bullet. If you're not willing to give something, you're really not all that interested in getting something.
    It ain't rocket surgery. Buy everything on sale, pedal when you have too, coast when you can, and get home in one piece. Keep going forward - there is no reverse.

    OGWB

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post

    I don't know what having the seat slammed back has to do with having to mash the pedals and take breaks frequently. I have my seat slammed back because that is what I find feels best. I don't need to mash, nor do I need to take frequent breaks. If I move the saddle forward, I feel cramped in the cockpit. I am not saying this is the optimal saddle position for everybody. But for me at least, if I slide my saddle forward, it puts my knees forward of KOPS. Now I know what you're about to say about KOPS not being gospel, but for most recreational riders, you want to be at KOPS or behind it, not forward of it. Sure, pros can get away with being forward of KOPS. For the rest of us, it is only asking for knee injury down the road.

    Why wouldn't get a frame or post set back/stem combo that actually fits instead.
    Breaking a rail or clamp can't be very fun and you're increasing the chances.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Why wouldn't get a frame or post set back/stem combo that actually fits instead.
    Breaking a rail or clamp can't be very fun and you're increasing the chances.
    I guess this is a legitimate concern. My seat posts of choice clamp a large area, not just two small points. I am thinking this would help prevent this. I am also only 175lbs. I have only known one person in my life who has broken a seat post rail and she is an Athena, so not too surprising.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Seriously? I don't know what having the seat slammed back has to do with having to mash the pedals and take breaks frequently. I have my seat slammed back because that is what I find feels best. I don't need to mash, nor do I need to take frequent breaks. If I move the saddle forward, I feel cramped in the cockpit. I am not saying this is the optimal saddle position for everybody. But for me at least, if I slide my saddle forward, it puts my knees forward of KOPS. Now I know what you're about to say about KOPS not being gospel, but for most recreational riders, you want to be at KOPS or behind it, not forward of it. Sure, pros can get away with being forward of KOPS. For the rest of us, it is only asking for knee injury down the road.
    You may be just on the limits in terms of being on a correctly sized bike. Thus in your case the only way to make the bike fit correctly, is to slam back on the rails. The only other option is that you are a mutant with insanely long femurs. If your seat is slammed back on the rails and your bars are level with the seat, you are doing it wrong. Period. If you slide your seat forward, specifically more towards the middle of its rails, and that puts your knees forward of KOPS, three things are responsible for this:
    a) you are sitting on it like a bench and not with your pelvis tilted forward
    b) you are riding a bike with an STA of 80 degrees
    c) you are a long tail bell curve mutant human with alien sized femurs
    d) you are measuring incorrectly. I presume you haven't had a fit and therefore all measurements are personal/subjective.

    What kind of bike manufacturer would design a bike that requires someone to slam their seat all the way back in order to be within a comfortable range? How would they serve that segment of their customers who need their seat 2mm further back than yours? I'm assuming you know the first thing about bike geometry, otherwise I'm just pissing into the wind. But, really think constructively about you being at the limits of the rails, and what that says about the seat manufacturing, bike manufacturing design process, or your personal choice of frame size.

    KOPS isn't a rule, most people get it ass backwards and then revolt. Rather, it is a likely the resultant range for an anatomically correct and efficient bike position. Notice I didn't say frame sizing as that isn't an issue when thinking from the crank out. KOPS and having your seat in the middle of the rails are again, not at all related.

    Finally, being "at KOPS" or "ahead of KOPS" is really only a difference of a 1-2mm's of seat height. What I mean by this is that small minute changes in seat height can have huge effects in how you sit on the seat, how you tilt your pelvis, which in turn have an exponential effects on where where your knees fall in relation to the all mythical kops
    Last edited by 9W9W; 1 Week Ago at 10:19 AM.
    "That pretty much sums it up. I'm 43 and my max is ~178-180. If that HR chart was mine or Froome's, we'd be on the verge of death. But for you it probably looks like a normal workout." -TLG

    LOLOLOL

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I guess this is a legitimate concern. My seat posts of choice clamp a large area, not just two small points. I am thinking this would help prevent this. I am also only 175lbs. I have only known one person in my life who has broken a seat post rail and she is an Athena, so not too surprising.
    I would think it was a combination of where it was clamped coupled with the material the rails were made of rather than a function of weight alone. The same model of seat can have multiple different rails/materials.
    "That pretty much sums it up. I'm 43 and my max is ~178-180. If that HR chart was mine or Froome's, we'd be on the verge of death. But for you it probably looks like a normal workout." -TLG

    LOLOLOL

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