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  1. #1
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    New a little help with saddle setup

    I have purchase a Selle Antomica saddle, and I'm trying to get it set up so I can ride it on my trainer after I have knee surgery(meniscus tear) the 16th of this month, to help with recover. I am using the Lemond method for my saddle height, I measure 34.25 in, at the inseam so Lemond saids my seat should be 30.25 measure from center of bottom bracket to top of seat, Does this seem right, I had it at 29.5/8 on my other seat, so I going to start at 30 in.

    The setback is the one setting I have the most problem with. According to Selle Antomica if you use a plumb line from the nose of saddle it should drop to the center of the bottom bracket, I have two different saddle post one that has a 20mm set back and one that has a 0 setback, I cant get the saddle nose within a inch of the bottom backet center with either post, so I am using the kops method, but Steve Hogg doesn't like this method, anyone got any suggestion or links for saddle setback.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post
    According to Selle Antomica if you use a plumb line from the nose of saddle it should drop to the center of the bottom bracket,
    There are number of saddle setup threads on this forum. Most of those threads debunked the myth of KOPS. The above Selle Antomica method is about as general as KOPS. People have different proportions in upper and lower legs. The above won't work well when it comes to fine tuning which is very important.

    Try the forum search on saddle setup.

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    Besides the factors mentioned above:

    Pelvic rotation. People with more flexibility, straighter backs and good pelvic rotation can drop their saddles 5-10mm compared to people with less flexibility. This is because you sit higher up on the saddle as your sitbones narrow.

    Equipment differences. Crank length, pedal stack height, shoe stack height, chamois thickness, etc. all matter.

    How much ankling is in your natural pedal stroke matters as well.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    There are number of saddle setup threads on this forum. Most of those threads debunked the myth of KOPS. The above Selle Antomica method is about as general as KOPS. People have different proportions in upper and lower legs. The above won't work well when it comes to fine tuning which is very important.

    Try the forum search on saddle setup.
    KOPS is not a myth. It is a reasonable starting point. Spinners will want to be "in front of" KOPS and mashers will want to be behind. Those with long femurs may want to be behind. Etc. There is no single number, whether it uses leg length, arm length, torso length, or any other length as its basis. The "myth" comes from people stating without reservation that you can set up a saddle based on some set of numbers. They are all starting points from which you adjust height, fore/aft position, and saddle tilt until you get what is comfortable for you. And as you change saddles (immediate), develop as a rider (shorter term) and age (longer term) these adjustments can change.

  5. #5
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    Semantics. Since KOPS has no basis or standard (is it the front of the knee, the patellar tendon, etc.), it is effectively a "myth." There are plenty of ways to fudge a starting point for saddle fore/aft. KOPS should really not be considered ahead of any of them.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    KOPS is not a myth.
    It is a myth as a finalizing step of setup. There have been riders who had it that way for a while, then post questions online about lack of performance, pain in xyz area... etc.

    It is a reasonable starting point. Spinners will want to be "in front of" KOPS and mashers will want to be behind. Those with long femurs may want to be behind. Etc. There is no single number, whether it uses leg length, arm length, torso length, or any other length as its basis. The "myth" comes from people stating without reservation that you can set up a saddle based on some set of numbers. They are all starting points from which you adjust height, fore/aft position, and saddle tilt until you get what is comfortable for you. And as you change saddles (immediate), develop as a rider (shorter term) and age (longer term) these adjustments can change.
    I wouldn't call it reasonable. More like the bottom of basic, can easily be tossed in favor of other methods.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceugene View Post
    Semantics. Since KOPS has no basis or standard (is it the front of the knee, the patellar tendon, etc.), it is effectively a "myth." There are plenty of ways to fudge a starting point for saddle fore/aft. KOPS should really not be considered ahead of any of them.
    Exactly. Even a slight raise or drop of heel can throw off the measurement.

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    As a cyclist who has had meniscus surgery, I will throw one other idea out to you. I always had used fixed black Look cleats, however after my injury and the repair, I find that things feel better to me using the slightly floating grey Look Keo cleats. If I recall those provide 4d.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKSki View Post
    As a cyclist who has had meniscus surgery, I will throw one other idea out to you. I always had used fixed black Look cleats, however after my injury and the repair, I find that things feel better to me using the slightly floating grey Look Keo cleats. If I recall those provide 4d.
    I use Shimano yellow cleats(I think they have 4 degree float) I think I'm going fork out the money for a bike fit, there is a place about a hour away that does the Retul fit. I don't know a lot about Retul but it seems to be a good choice, as I have several issues that cause me some problems on the bike, I have upper and lower back problems, I have sit bone chaffing, flexability issues lower back, hamstrings etc. There is just a lot of different info out there on the web, and it is hard to figure out what is best for me.

  10. #10
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    All these things were thoroughly addressed in this video, posted nearly perfectly to the time this thread was created:


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    I have never had a need for a trainer. As far as a road bike, correct saddle set-up depends upon an accurate complete bike fit. My fit was done by fitter of many years experience and fitting is all he does for a living. He fits both pros and recreational riders.

    My fit is over two years old for my current bike. It's great. As for the saddle, there are two "tests" that in part confirm a good fit. One I am rock solid stationary on the saddle. Unless I choose to move my position for things like climbs or descents I'm naturally sitting on the same spot. The second is if I stand up on the flats to pedal and then just naturally set down I naturally sit or "land" right on the exact spot of the saddle that it was fitted for me to be on.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post

    The setback is the one setting I have the most problem with. According to Selle Antomica if you use a plumb line from the nose of saddle it should drop to the center of the bottom bracket, .
    I'm not surprised you are having problems - this is most definitely NOT what the set up instructions tell you. The line goes through your knee, not the saddle nose. Reread:

    https://selleanatomica.com/pages/setup




    KOPS is not a myth - myths have claims attached to them. KOPS is just a method for getting your pelvis onto an angled line coming out of the BB without actually being able to observe the pelvic bones. If hip joints stuck out like knees and foot bones do we wouldn't use knees and foot bones. It is just a coincidence that KOPS happens to work, not a fitting conspiracy.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  14. #14
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    Re the video: I don't see how failing the test by your hips sliding forward is an indication that the saddle needs to be moved back works. If your hips are sliding forward and one moves the seat further back, wouldn't you slide further forward. Or how does moving the seat back stop one from moving forward on it?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    Re the video: I don't see how failing the test by your hips sliding forward is an indication that the saddle needs to be moved back works. If your hips are sliding forward and one moves the seat further back, wouldn't you slide further forward. Or how does moving the seat back stop one from moving forward on it?
    If you slide forward, it is because too much of your weight is already forward of the pedals. With you butt further back your entire CG is further back, so when you lift your hands you have enough body weight behind the pedals to counter that movement.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=Kontact;5210094]I'm not surprised you are having problems - this is most definitely NOT what the set up instructions tell you. The line goes through your knee, not the saddle nose. Reread:

    https://selleanatomica.com/pages/setup

    "KOPS is not a myth - myths have claims attached to them. KOPS is just a method for getting your pelvis onto an angled line coming out of the BB without actually being able to observe the pelvic bones. If hip joints stuck out like knees and foot bones do we wouldn't use knees and foot bones. It is just a coincidence that KOPS happens to work, not a fitting conspiracy.[/QUOTE"


    The video saids take a level and place it at the nose of saddle and it should line up at the center on the bottom bracket. There is not enough rail on the saddle to even do this, even with the saddle pull all the way forward it is still a inch or more behind center of bottom bracket.

    Also direct from the written instructions on the Selle Antomica web site.

    "With your feet at 3 and 9 o’clock drop a vertical line from your forward kneecap to the front pedal axle. The front of your knee and the front pedal axle should be in straight up/down alignment. Adjust the seat forward or backward to atain the proper setback, but under no circumstances should you adjust the saddle all the way back to the front rail bend. Leave 1⁄2” (1cm) of space behind the front rail bend."

    I am going to get a Retul fit done once my knee heals up, so this should solve my fit problems I hope.
    Last edited by Ventura Roubaix; 01-18-2018 at 11:59 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    KOPS is not a myth - myths have claims attached to them. KOPS is just a method for getting your pelvis onto an angled line coming out of the BB without actually being able to observe the pelvic bones. If hip joints stuck out like knees and foot bones do we wouldn't use knees and foot bones. It is just a coincidence that KOPS happens to work, not a fitting conspiracy.
    If a method works only by chance (if the rider happens to have a specific physical proportion), should that really be called "method"? It may as well be same as saying, "have the seatpost clamp mount at the midpoint of saddle rail", it may work for some riders who happen to have a specific physical proportion for that.
    I've got an idea, it should be called "KOPS mythod".

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post

    The video saids take a level and place it at the nose of saddle and it should line up at the center on the bottom bracket. There is not enough rail on the saddle to even do this, even with the saddle push all the way back it is still a inch or more behind center of bottom bracket.

    Also direct from the written instructions on the Selle Antomica web site.

    "With your feet at 3 and 9 o’clock drop a vertical line from your forward kneecap to the front pedal axle. The front of your knee and the front pedal axle should be in straight up/down alignment. Adjust the seat forward or backward to atain the proper setback, but under no circumstances should you adjust the saddle all the way back to the front rail bend. Leave 1⁄2” (1cm) of space behind the front rail bend."

    I am going to get a Retul fit done once my knee heals up, so this should solve my fit problems I hope.
    Which video?

    Those quoted instructions are correct - nothing about the saddle nose and the BB. You move the seat to move your butt until your knee is over the pedal.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Which video?

    Those quoted instructions are correct - nothing about the saddle nose and the BB. You move the seat to move your butt until your knee is over the pedal.
    The video is under the "support tab" on the Selle Antomica web site as "setup"

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post
    The video is under the "support tab" on the Selle Antomica web site as "setup"
    That video is poor, but he is demonstrating visually how to define and measure set back, not how to create set back. You are supposed to use that visual aid to understand the written instructions, which use your knee.

    It is overly brief and confusing, but nowhere does it say to place the nose of the saddle directly above the BB.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    Exactly. Even a slight raise or drop of heel can throw off the measurement.
    Yes, if rider raises and drops heels pedaling. Most riders pedal flat footed. Measure KOPs flat footed.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    It is a myth as a finalizing step of setup. There have been riders who had it that way for a while, then post questions online about lack of performance, pain in xyz area... etc.


    I wouldn't call it reasonable. More like the bottom of basic, can easily be tossed in favor of other methods.
    Such as?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    If you slide forward, it is because too much of your weight is already forward of the pedals. With you butt further back your entire CG is further back, so when you lift your hands you have enough body weight behind the pedals to counter that movement.
    Except if the saddle is still tilted ever so slightly downward in front, rider will slide forward no matter how far the saddle is from the bars. Try it!

    Before doing anything else, level that saddle. You want to be able to sit up without sliding forward, a major hassle when taking hands off handlebars while peeling the wrapper off a Powerbar.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post
    I have purchase a Selle Antomica saddle, and I'm trying to get it set up so I can ride it on my trainer after I have knee surgery(meniscus tear) the 16th of this month, to help with recover. I am using the Lemond method for my saddle height, I measure 34.25 in, at the inseam so Lemond saids my seat should be 30.25 measure from center of bottom bracket to top of seat, Does this seem right, I had it at 29.5/8 on my other seat, so I going to start at 30 in.

    The setback is the one setting I have the most problem with. According to Selle Antomica if you use a plumb line from the nose of saddle it should drop to the center of the bottom bracket, I have two different saddle post one that has a 20mm set back and one that has a 0 setback, I cant get the saddle nose within a inch of the bottom backet center with either post, so I am using the kops method, but Steve Hogg doesn't like this method, anyone got any suggestion or links for saddle setback.
    Hogg says it very well. His cautions about KOPS are pretty well stated by Kerry. Variations of one centimeter either way are within a range the rider's levers can handle.

    Level the saddle first. Start saddle height at 30." That's good, so the knees don't get suddenly overstressed from the sudden increase in extension. Then, pedal a few turns to get comfortable and sit on the saddle as you would riding. Place a string with a nut tied to the far end under the knee cap, not in front of it, and move the saddle fore/aft to get the nut to hang above the pedal spindle. Make sure the feet are pointed straight ahead, heels and forefeet clear the crank arms and chain stays when pedaling, and go take a ride.

    If knees feel stressed, lower the saddle back to where it was, 29 and 5/8ths or whatever, and leave it there until you get setback dialed in. You should find a comfortable position with sit bones squarely situated on the back of the saddle. You should be able to pedal fast without rocking the hips. If you slide up on the nose, the saddle is either tilted down in front, or the knees are too far behind the pedal spindles. Reach and drop of the handlebars should not affect this fit, other than upper body weight may be too far forward or the other way, too much weight is on the butt.

    I'd try the above before springing a hundred bucks on a fitter. It ain't rocket science. Fit problems show up sooner rather than later most of the time. If the legs feel good after a ride, you've got it made.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 01-18-2018 at 06:34 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    If a method works only by chance (if the rider happens to have a specific physical proportion), should that really be called "method"? It may as well be same as saying, "have the seatpost clamp mount at the midpoint of saddle rail", it may work for some riders who happen to have a specific physical proportion for that.
    I've got an idea, it should be called "KOPS mythod".
    It doesn't work just "by chance". Even with variations in upper vs. lower leg proportions you still end up with very similar setback positions. Only a fool ignores a useful and accurate tool because they don't care for serendipity.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

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