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  1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Rocket science. You know. Bernoullli, 2nd law of thermodynamics which states that for a thermodynamically defined process to actually occur, the sum of the entropies of the participating bodies must increase. In an idealized limiting case, that of a reversible process, this sum remains unchanged. All partial differential equations, 2 phase flow...stuff behind what gives rockets flight. You know, the stuff you could never possibly understand because its way over your head....just like FEA and section modulus of a bicycle frame for guys here is like magic. But if want a solid take, ask Kontact who believes that brake fade on disk brakes is a real problem even though he doesn't know conductive heat transfer and brake fluid phase change from where apples comes from.
    ugh oh, rocket scientist. honestly dude, this makes it even more remarkable that you would have time to exchange tits for tats on RBR! Alright rocket man, i'm now impressed!

  2. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    You and Maelocks can take it from here. He admits to being non technical ....
    Dude, Graphene?

    I knew about carbon fiber before carbon was invented.

  3. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    You are so right as the other guys are in this thread that believe guys like Kontact who is a bike shop mechanic and others with no science training are responsible for all innovation. What better example than the rockets designed by NASA including the land rover and trip to the moon in the 60's? Somebody in marketing decided this would be great idea. To me, this is solid evidence. Most know the space program, the very definition of design innovation, was designed by Kontact and other geniuses in their parent's garage. In fact the entire NASA program is comprised of guys like Kontact, plumbers, ditch diggers and others without training in science, math and physics aka engineers. How could this be? The answer to me is obvious. Like the pyramids, this is clear evidence of divine intervention...lol.
    I guess you missed the part about how sporting goods companies are different aerospace companies, because it apparently matters a whole lot more when a 747 wheel fails than a Trispoke.

    And you haven't paid attention to much I've been saying about my background - bike mechanic is something I did while going to Northwestern, and came back to while I was starting my bicycle seat company after being a commercial pilot. I've met and spoken to a lot of the people who are intimate to the design work of several of these companies - especially when I was working in the industry in Trek's home town.

    So when you say I'm "just" a bike mechanic and skip over all the other bike industry and aviation industry experience, you just sound like you can't make a point without a put-down.

    Which I guess you can't.
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  4. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Rocket science. You know. Bernoullli, 2nd law of thermodynamics which states that for a thermodynamically defined process to actually occur, the sum of the entropies of the participating bodies must increase. In an idealized limiting case, that of a reversible process, this sum remains unchanged. All partial differential equations, 2 phase flow...stuff behind what gives rockets flight. You know, the stuff you could never possibly understand because its way over your head....just like FEA and section modulus of a bicycle frame for guys here is like magic. But if want a solid take, ask Kontact who believes that brake fade on disk brakes is a real problem even though he doesn't know conductive heat transfer and brake fluid phase change from where apples comes from.
    "Brake fluid phase change", for those of you who 11spd doesn't think will recognize as "boil".

    And I'm pretty sure most of us remember conduction vs. convection vs. radiation from middle school.


    I'm pretty sure your specialty is comedy.
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  5. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    I guess you missed the part about how sporting goods companies are different aerospace companies, because it apparently matters a whole lot more when a 747 wheel fails than a Trispoke.

    And you haven't paid attention to much I've been saying about my background - bike mechanic is something I did while going to Northwestern, and came back to while I was starting my bicycle seat company after being a commercial pilot. I've met and spoken to a lot of the people who are intimate to the design work of several of these companies - especially when I was working in the industry in Trek's home town.

    So when you say I'm "just" a bike mechanic and skip over all the other bike industry and aviation industry experience, you just sound like you can't make a point without a put-down.

    Which I guess you can't.
    I hope you don't mind. I am just having some fun with your silly assertions throughout this thread. If you had more education, you would understand why you are misguided about disc brakes being challenged for pro racing as you have stated. Can't teach engineering in a bike forum thread...even if you had the capacity to understand.

  6. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    "Brake fluid phase change", for those of you who 11spd doesn't think will recognize as "boil".

    And I'm pretty sure most of us remember conduction vs. convection vs. radiation from middle school.


    I'm pretty sure your specialty is comedy.
    Your specialty is fiction...lol. Watch out for that brake fade, all the disc brake bikes currently on the market are killers.

  7. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    ugh oh, rocket scientist. honestly dude, this makes it even more remarkable that you would have time to exchange tits for tats on RBR! Alright rocket man, i'm now impressed!
    Its ok to have a background in thermodynamics and be an avid cyclist. I have met countless MD and PhD's on the road. But of course we view the sport through a different lens...like your outrageous conflation of marketing and engineering.

  8. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Its ok to have a background in thermodynamics and be an avid cyclist. I have met countless MD and PhD's on the road. But of course we view the sport through a different lens...like your outrageous conflation of marketing and engineering.
    Dropping references to middle school physics and things you read at the barber's in Popular Science does not make you a rocket scientist.

    What you - someone who does not work in the bicycle industry - fail to understand is that an awful lot of the engineering is not being performed by engineers and that the engineering is not happening in accordance with longstanding engineering practices. That 1000 gram bike frame might come from an aviation computer model, not no airplane has ever had carbon walls that thin.


    No one is attacking science and engineering. We are pointing out that a great deal of what happens at bike companies is nothing like actual engineering. In part because an aviation engineer would never create and sell something as fragile as many bike frames.
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  9. #484
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    This thread is the perfect Hanukkah present--it keeps giving new gifts each day.

  10. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Dropping references to middle school physics and things you read at the barber's in Popular Science does not make you a rocket scientist.

    What you - someone who does not work in the bicycle industry - fail to understand is that an awful lot of the engineering is not being performed by engineers and that the engineering is not happening in accordance with longstanding engineering practices. That 1000 gram bike frame might come from an aviation computer model, not no airplane has ever had carbon walls that thin.


    No one is attacking science and engineering. We are pointing out that a great deal of what happens at bike companies is nothing like actual engineering. In part because an aviation engineer would never create and sell something as fragile as many bike frames.
    In bold underscores how little you understand about FEA computer modeling and stress analysis. The same CAD and FEA computer modeling which have spawned the latest and greatest carbon fiber bicycle frames is the exact same CAE...used to develop the Boeing 787 carbon fiber airplane. There are even analogies used for each in wind tunnel testing and trying to optimize boundary layer analysis. Virtually every component on a modern bicycle from handlebars, to stems to seatposts to cranksets are developed with the same CAE tools. Of course the 787 uses a superior grade of carbon and wall thickness is different. Not even close to being relevant. FEA and strain gage testing to compose computer models are the same. Stuff you aren't trained to do or understand and I am.

  11. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    In bold underscores how little you understand about FEA computer modeling and stress analysis. The same CAD and FEA computer modeling which have spawned the latest and greatest carbon fiber bicycle frames is the exact same CAE...used to develop the Boeing 787 carbon fiber airplane. There are even analogies used for each in wind tunnel testing and trying to optimize boundary layer analysis. Virtually every component on a modern bicycle from handlebars, to stems to seatposts to cranksets are developed with the same CAE tools. Of course the 787 uses a superior grade of carbon and wall thickness is different. Not even close to being relevant. FEA and strain gage testing to compose computer models are the same. Stuff you aren't trained to do or understand and I am.
    Correct. Bike companies are using software designed to make structures that are several inches thick of carbon fiber to design bikes with fraction of an inch wall thickness.

    If you are an engineer, you understand that materials don't scale infinitely - particularly oriented fiber matrices. What Boeing might accomplish with 500 layers of fiber, a bike company has to do with 40 layers. Issues like delamination become critical when the relative "grain" size of the material is a significant percent of the wall thickness.

    Bicycles need bicycle engineering, and that type of engineering has come from a range of enthusiasts that have (mis)appropriated tools and methods from somewhat dissimilar industries.
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  12. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Correct. Bike companies are using software designed to make structures that are several inches thick of carbon fiber to design bikes with fraction of an inch wall thickness.

    If you are an engineer, you understand that materials don't scale infinitely - particularly oriented fiber matrices. What Boeing might accomplish with 500 layers of fiber, a bike company has to do with 40 layers. Issues like delamination become critical when the relative "grain" size of the material is a significant percent of the wall thickness.

    Bicycles need bicycle engineering, and that type of engineering has come from a range of enthusiasts that have (mis)appropriated tools and methods from somewhat dissimilar industries.
    There is only 'one type' of engineering. A point you repeatedly miss as you have denigrated disk brakes repeatedly based upon ignorance. There have been countless steps forward in bicycle development in the last 10 years born from utilizing the disciplines of engineering. Its has been the advance of the computer and CAE and not bike shop guys like you that moved the industry into its latest level of tech.
    What you write is beyond absurd. Same applies to the auto industry. Its engineers that have created modern car technology from electric steering to airbag technology to ABS to throttle by wire..an endless list of creation by engineers. And soon autonomous vehicles and tomorrow robots and AI. A guy like you has no idea of what Shimano put into Di2 to take it to its current level. Or Sram using Di2 as a benchmark and creating wireless electric shifting. The electronics are way over your head. No, like disc brakes, you are only prone to share wive's tales about the veracity of bicycle technology based upon your personal bias.

  13. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    Bicycles need bicycle engineering, and that type of engineering has come from a range of enthusiasts that have (mis)appropriated tools and methods from somewhat dissimilar industries.
    yeah, MIT is a world-class engineering school ... but n o bike company would ever hire an engineer with an advanced degree from MIT ... because MIT doesn't teach "bicycle engineering."

    It's different, you know.

  14. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
    yeah, MIT is a world-class engineering school ... but n o bike company would ever hire an engineer with an advanced degree from MIT ... because MIT doesn't teach "bicycle engineering."

    It's different, you know.
    True, very few MIT engineers at bike companies. But a little secret because one of my best friends I worked with went to MIT and he had about perfect SAT scores. The best schools in the country don't always spawn the most 'prolific' designs. I worked with guys who went to some of the best engineering schools and with guys who attended more average colleges and a ton of guys from Europe. Typically the guys that went to schools like MIT had the highest IQ's...no mistake, but many times they didn't create the invention that more ordinary engineers did.
    Last edited by 11spd; 2 Days Ago at 02:44 PM.

  15. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    There is only 'one type' of engineering. A point you repeatedly miss as you have denigrated disk brakes repeatedly based upon ignorance. There have been countless steps forward in bicycle development in the last 10 years born from utilizing the disciplines of engineering. Its has been the advance of the computer and CAE and not bike shop guys like you that moved the industry into its latest level of tech.
    What you write is beyond absurd. Same applies to the auto industry. Its engineers that have created modern car technology from electric steering to airbag technology to ABS to throttle by wire..an endless list of creation by engineers. And soon autonomous vehicles and tomorrow robots and AI. A guy like you has no idea of what Shimano put into Di2 to take it to its current level. Or Sram using Di2 as a benchmark and creating wireless electric shifting. The electronics are way over your head. No, like disc brakes, you are only prone to share wive's tales about the veracity of bicycle technology based upon your personal bias.
    Why do you keep coming back to Shimano when I bring up composite bicycle frames designed by non-engineers?
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  16. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
    yeah, MIT is a world-class engineering school ... but n o bike company would ever hire an engineer with an advanced degree from MIT ... because MIT doesn't teach "bicycle engineering."

    It's different, you know.
    It is different. Here's MIT's aerospace department:
    MIT AeroAstro: Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics

    Apparently they don't treat all kinds of engineering the same, and pay attention to the corporate knowledge of different kinds of engineering pursuits.

    Bike companies hire all sorts of people since there is no bicycle engineering department anywhere. Some of the best people are not engineers, some of the worst designs have come from engineers. That isn't the fault of MIT, it is the fact of how sporting goods companies differ from more regulated industries, like automotive or aerospace.

    Take it however you want, but your bike was not designed with the same sort of expertise that went into your car's unibody.
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  17. #492
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    If only there were a retired Formula 1 engineer who would take interest in designing carbon bicycles. Especially the guys who design a front wing to flex specific amounts at certain speeds for reduced drag and increased downforce. I wonder if Adrian Newey likes bicycles?

  18. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    It is different. Here's MIT's aerospace department:
    MIT AeroAstro: Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics

    Apparently they don't treat all kinds of engineering the same, and pay attention to the corporate knowledge of different kinds of engineering pursuits.

    Bike companies hire all sorts of people since there is no bicycle engineering department anywhere. Some of the best people are not engineers, some of the worst designs have come from engineers. That isn't the fault of MIT, it is the fact of how sporting goods companies differ from more regulated industries, like automotive or aerospace.

    Take it however you want, but your bike was not designed with the same sort of expertise that went into your car's unibody.
    You just aren't going to get it. There is no debate with you because you don't understand engineering...the world I lived in for 3 decades.
    Development that went into a car's unibody and subframe is the identical CAE used...same computer software used to optimize and develop carbon fiber bicycle frames, handlebars, stems, seat posts, saddle carbon substrates, wheelsets, cranksets, pedals, derailleur bodies, shifter bodies....a very long list of bicycle components are optimized for weight and stress distribution with the same CAD software to create the math surface and same FEA tools to optimize stress distribution. If you take something as simple as a rear derailleur cage...lets say Campy Super Record versus Athena, the geometry of the cage is not the same with SR as it is with Athena. Stress level aka the environment they both live doesn't change however. SR cage is made out of carbon which has a higher yield strength and modulus of elasticity than an Athena Al cage..so different force/deflection for the same stress level. CAD math modeling of each cage and subsequent FEA is what creates the geometry difference and weight variance. Computer modeling and optionally bicycle wind tunnel testing...the same disciplines used in aerospace and auto industry are used to optimize bike design for virtually all parts sold.

    What I suggest and honestly laughable a guy who knows nothing about engineering continues to make ridiculous statements, why don't you go back to your false narrative about disc brakes? You know, why brake fade will hold back disc brakes in pro racing and how localized frame stiffness of mounting disc calipers can't be surmounted for ride quality an handling. You are just another guy on the internet with lack of science training spinning a false narrative making assertions about design when you don't know what you are talking about.
    Last edited by 11spd; 2 Days Ago at 02:58 AM.

  19. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    If only there were a retired Formula 1 engineer who would take interest in designing carbon bicycles. Especially the guys who design a front wing to flex specific amounts at certain speeds for reduced drag and increased downforce. I wonder if Adrian Newey likes bicycles?
    Uh oh...you are conflating dialog between Kontact and me. I know, he is a veritable fountain of disinformation...lol. Bicycle framesets and components are already pretty optimized for weight and stiffness. But the bar continues to be raised with framesets getting into the 600 gram range which is 1.5 lbs...pretty amazing.
    Trek Emonda SLR 8 - just in - BikeRadar

    Engineers in F1 are no more evolved in fact than the engineers in NASCAR or NASA or the bicycle industry. We all learned the same discipline in engineering school...same calculus, same physics and same courses. The obvious trap lets say comparing F1 to NASCAR is...F1 cars do everything better. Truth is F1 engineers would initially fail miserably if reassigned to NASCAR because the boundard conditons are so much different. NASCAR engineers have thousands of constraints that keep Nascar race cars from looking like open wheel cars. The key and lost on those making such a comparison is....optimizing design to win on the race track 'within the parameters of design' each race team is beholden to. There are conditions on pretty much all aspects of race car design. The science is...exploiting these rules to create greater efficiency. Technology that goes into F1 engines is no more advanced than the tech that goes into NASCAR motors. Challenges are the same...hp relative to weight and RPM versus durability. Boundary conditions determine level of optimization from chassis, tire compound to aerodynamics i.e. lift aka downforce versus drag....downforce for handling robbing speed...same L/D as an airplane. Same with bicycles which by comparison seem more primitive but there is a high level of engineering that go into bicycles as well.

    Perhaps best example is McLaren working with Specialized since you mentioned F1. Yes, many times companies will go 'outside their own house' for specific expertise:
    McLaren Applied Technologies

    Maybe you heard about the joint venture with McLaren coined 'Rider first Engineering' which basically adopted the same discipline as the auto industry which uses road load data acquisition and strain gaging and real time riding with different frame sizes with different rider sizes to create consistency in frame deflection for all sizes...here-to-fore more ignored. By stress analysis, the FEA computer model can be tweaked not only optimizing stress distribution throughout a bike frameset but weight optimization.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFmD3BmghvA
    Last edited by 11spd; 2 Days Ago at 03:16 AM.

  20. #495
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    The whole point with my MIT joke was exactly that ... an engineer with an advanced degree form MIT can apply that knowledge to Anything ... Any engineer can.

    There is an Australian guy with a lot of YouTube videos (he has a lot of videos where he cuts bikes frames in half) who worked since the '60s doing aerospace work. He now builds and repairs CF bike frames.

    Yes, there are specialized aspects of Any application ... I am sure the guys who do F1 cars like Gordon Murray, would need to learn some aerospace-specific stuff to get a job an NASA ... on the other hand Adrian Newey designs the best F1 cars and feels that he could jump right into designing racing yachts. But at root, math is math and physics is physics.

    The idea that anyone who can do four-function math can design and build a CF bike frame ... yeah, sure ... but a Good one? Cutting-edge Anything is cutting-edge.

    And to tie it back to disc brakes .... what about those hot, sharp cutting edges?

    But no one ever discusses the danger of getting pinched in caliper brakes.

  21. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
    This thread is the perfect Hanukkah present--it keeps giving new gifts each day.
    11spd and Kontact: The gift that keeps on giving.

    They both must have very easy jobs.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  22. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    11spd and Kontact: The gift that keeps on giving.

    They both must have very easy jobs.
    I retired young. I made my money and am an investor. Money is where the money is, not in developing technology for others which I did earlier in life. I had the privilege of working with some pretty brilliant guys along the way. I ride and swim almost everyday. I rode pretty hard this morning so my job isn't always easy but I enjoy it. :-)

  23. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    I retired young. I made my money and am an investor. Money is where the money is, not in developing technology for others which I did earlier in life. I had the privilege of working with some pretty brilliant guys along the way. I ride and swim almost everyday. I rode pretty hard this morning so my job isn't always easy but I enjoy it. :-)
    Oh man! If I were retired, I wouldn't have this much time to spend on message boards. I would be out taking longer rides.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  24. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
    The whole point with my MIT joke was exactly that ... an engineer with an advanced degree form MIT can apply that knowledge to Anything ... Any engineer can.

    There is an Australian guy with a lot of YouTube videos (he has a lot of videos where he cuts bikes frames in half) who worked since the '60s doing aerospace work. He now builds and repairs CF bike frames.

    Yes, there are specialized aspects of Any application ... I am sure the guys who do F1 cars like Gordon Murray, would need to learn some aerospace-specific stuff to get a job an NASA ... on the other hand Adrian Newey designs the best F1 cars and feels that he could jump right into designing racing yachts. But at root, math is math and physics is physics.

    The idea that anyone who can do four-function math can design and build a CF bike frame ... yeah, sure ... but a Good one? Cutting-edge Anything is cutting-edge.

    And to tie it back to disc brakes .... what about those hot, sharp cutting edges?

    But no one ever discusses the danger of getting pinched in caliper brakes.
    yeah his name is Raol Leuscher. His youtube channel is here:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9...4lLOHpb_zbIedQ

    I've watched most (if not all) of his videos, all the way back when another Australian guy under the nick of "Maven Cycling" (Shane Miller) was doing the video production for him.

    But if anyone follows Raol, you will know that he is (in random order):

    1. very critical of the carbon composite being produced by today's manufactures. He find voids and wrinkles in almost everything he cuts up.

    2. has straight up said (in at least 1 of his videos) that the cycling industry doesn't know what they're doing with carbon fiber

    3. explained that carbon fiber composite construction is heavily process-dependent, thus making quality control of utmost importance, more so that trying to use different fiber types like T700 or T800, etc, that the marketing department is making a big deal about.

    4. there's a little interesting video where he also talked about graphene (because he was getting lots of questions from his viewers on it after they watched a GCN video on graphene.) Basically, he said graphene in cycling right now is more hype than substance.

    overall, a very knowledgeable guy, knowledgeable enough about composite to give speeches about it in some of those material science seminars. But,,, he can be a boring guy to listen to though, tends to ramble a bit, but I still like his videos.

  25. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Oh man! If I were retired, I wouldn't have this much time to spend on message boards. I would be out taking longer rides.
    See, we're different. Why you are still working. ;)

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