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  1. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    The issue really goes back to the fact that road race bikes have fairly strict definition by the UCI, and the full adoption of discs as THE standard by the UCI will likely spell the end of rim brake road race bikes.

    Should that happen, the things that road race bike riders prefer about rim brakes, like lower weight or more compliant frame and fork ride qualities, will no longer be available and all previous framesets and wheels will be incompatible with the new standard and parts unavailable. And there is also a concern about the small rotors and large descent speed of road race bikes.

    I don't think anyone cares if people ride bikes with discs on the road. It really is only a question of the UCI effectively ending the rim brake road race bike forever.
    I think the real force for change in this case is not the UCI, but the manufacturers. There's a lot of economic gains to be had obsoleting an old standard and have people buy into a new one. All these "technical" debates of the pros and cons on the internet are mainly for fun. The real debate is economic, but nobody in here want to talk economics because it's a boring sh*t topic that only manufacturers find stimulating!

  2. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The lady rider tightened QR on front wheel before descending. Sounds like she forgot to close the brake caliper, so the brake blocks weren't making positive contact with the rim. That would do it.
    that sounds about right.

    But why would they take a female rider down such a steep grade? when they already sensed there was something not right about her brakes???? Sheesh, sounds like total operator error to me.

  3. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    My friend's bike squealing could be from a bad setup or bad pads or a combination of both. But what's a new user to do then? Should he take some classes on how to shim his caliper? What do you suggest to such a new user?
    It took me all of five minutes to learn, there's this amazing new thing called the Googles


    For rim brake, it's a matter of changing pads and maybe rotate the caliper a tiny bit. But for disc caliper? have him go buy shims?
    It was the same amount of effort for me to get the disc brakes to stop making noise. Shims? You don't need no stinkin' shims.
    All you have to do is with the wheel out, loosen the caliper bolts and then fold a business card over the rotor before you reinsert it, grab the brake hard and tighten the caliper, then remove business card. Those new Shimano flat mount are supposed to have more space between the pads and rotors, so it shouldn't be doing that.



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  4. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    could be, who knows, but this being a brand new bike, it's a little let down for him! I told him to just bring it back to the shop and let them deal with it.
    New doesn't necessarily mean good. I am thinking since the Emonda wasn't originally designed for disc brakes, it may have been a hasty attempt by Trek to get on the road disc bandwagon without doing a full re-design of the frame and fork. Just a guess.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  5. #555
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    The 2018 Emonda SLR is a complete redesign. The SL is supposed to be an "updated" version that has been modified to take on disc brakes.

    Trek Émonda 2018 range: lightweight all-rounders now disc equipped - Cycling Weekly
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  6. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    a friend just got a brand spanking new Trek Emonda Disc
    I'm not sure if shops do this as part of a delivery, and I guess all shops might do something different - but did your friend bed in the new discs / pads properly before going for a ride?

  7. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    It took me all of five minutes to learn, there's this amazing new thing called the Googles

    It was the same amount of effort for me to get the disc brakes to stop making noise. Shims? You don't need no stinkin' shims.
    All you have to do is with the wheel out, loosen the caliper bolts and then fold a business card over the rotor before you reinsert it, grab the brake hard and tighten the caliper, then remove business card. Those new Shimano flat mount are supposed to have more space between the pads and rotors, so it shouldn't be doing that.
    and here's a 6-minute video on how to change your car brake pads. Who in here believe anyone without zero car mechanic skill can do this in 6 minutes? Didn't think so!


  8. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    and here's a 6-minute video on how to change your car brake pads. Who in here believe anyone without zero car mechanic skill can do this in 6 minutes? Didn't think so!

    ... and has nothing to do with changing brake pads on a BICYCLE



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  9. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    New doesn't necessarily mean good. I am thinking since the Emonda wasn't originally designed for disc brakes, it may have been a hasty attempt by Trek to get on the road disc bandwagon without doing a full re-design of the frame and fork. Just a guess.
    his is an Emonda SLR, 2018. I don't think it's fork flex because it wasn't making noise for most of the ride until we're about done.

  10. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    ... and has nothing to do with changing brake pads on a BICYCLE



    .
    You said use google (youtube count?) to learn, so I showed you a video just because something takes 5-min to learn on the internet, doesn't mean you can actually do it in 5 mint. Do you really think most laymen outside of RBR would have the initiative to learn how to align a caliper? I've seen cat1,2 racers, tri guys, who bring their bikes into a shop to have a tire changed, pedals changed, handlebar changed. And you want them to learn how to adjust their disc caliper? Not everybody is gonna be a tinker

  11. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    You said use google (youtube count?) to learn, so I showed you a video just because something takes 5-min to learn on the internet, doesn't mean you can actually do it in 5 mint. Do you really think most laymen outside of RBR would have the initiative to learn how to align a caliper? I've seen cat1,2 racers, tri guys, who bring their bikes into a shop to have a tire changed, pedals changed, handlebar changed. And you want them to learn how to adjust their disc caliper? Not everybody is gonna be a tinker

    Uh, your words here:

    But what's a new user to do then? Should he take some classes on how to shim his caliper? What do you suggest to such a new user?
    I gave you a suggestion


    And for anyone who is going to take their bike to the shop for such simple things as a tire, or a pedal, the change to disc brakes will be of no consequence to them.


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  12. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Uh, your words here:



    I gave you a suggestion


    And for anyone who is going to take their bike to the shop for such simple things as a tire, or a pedal, the change to disc brakes will be of no consequence to them.


    .
    nah your suggestion for a layman cyclist to learn how to fix/adjust disc brake ain't practical. Google my ass. I been in mtb and using hydro disc for a decade, probably longer than you on the road? and those dirt guys, who are more self-initiated gear heads than the roadie crowds, and even a lot of them mtb guys can't adjust sh8t nor have the inclination to want to try. You think roadies, being a bunch of feckle prima donnas at times, would want to spend time learning? Not gonna happen. You ever wonder why the Mtbr site has a whole subforum decidated to brakes and not on RBR site? It's not because disc brakes are easy to work on eh. Fact!

  13. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    nah your suggestion for a layman cyclist to learn how to fix/adjust disc brake ain't practical. Google my ass. I been in mtb and using hydro disc for a decade, probably longer than you on the road? and those dirt guys, who are more self-initiated gear heads than the roadie crowds, and even a lot of them mtb guys can't adjust sh8t nor have the inclination to want to try. You think roadies, being a bunch of feckle prima donnas at times, would want to spend time learning? Not gonna happen. You ever wonder why the Mtbr site has a whole subforum decidated to brakes and not on RBR site? It's not because disc brakes are easy to work on eh. Fact!

    Whatever dude, if you can't do what I described to fix the issue, you're an idiot. And changing pads on disc is easier than rim brakes. As I said, I learned how to do it in less than 5 minutes

    Again, if you can't learn how to adjust disc, change the pads, or even bleed the brakes, you can't learn how to deal with rim brakes either, your point is moot!




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  14. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by TmB123 View Post
    I'm not sure if shops do this as part of a delivery, and I guess all shops might do something different - but did your friend bed in the new discs / pads properly before going for a ride?
    Heck, take a cotton rag dipped in rubbing alcohol and wipe off the discs well. Then wipe the pads off. If scored, buff em up with emory paper. Then see if they still squeak.

  15. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    You ever wonder why the Mtbr site has a whole subforum decidated to brakes and not on RBR site? It's not because disc brakes are easy to work on eh. Fact!
    it's because brakes are infinitely more important to the technique and enjoyment of riding a mountain bike than a road bike. Disc brakes are actually fairly low maintenance, depending on the model (Sram doesn't seem to have a handle on how to make them as reliable as Shimano!) . I go through a couple sets of pads on my XT brakes in a year and the maintenance is slightly less work than my ultegra road rim brakes are over the same period. However I tried using some sram oem brakes on my MTB and they were actually unsafe for me, lol ... I am sure I could still do all the road riding I do with 1974 vintage Mafac centre pull brakes even though I live in a coastal rainforest dotted with winding wet roads and steep hills.

  16. #566
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    This thread has possibilities though I believe it is missing Kontact who keeps throwing disc brakes under the bus and we know most busses use drum brakes. Digging the convo about adjusting hydro disc brakes.
    Anybody care to share their best lessons learned about bleeding hydro brakes?

  17. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Heck, take a cotton rag dipped in rubbing alcohol and wipe off the discs well. Then wipe the pads off. If scored, buff em up with emory paper. Then see if they still squeak.
    Some are fussy in my experience. Resonant frequencies can be a bit elusive. Bike specifc. Pad clearance is important...getting this right.

  18. #568
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    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  19. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The lady rider tightened QR on front wheel before descending. Sounds like she forgot to close the brake caliper, so the brake blocks weren't making positive contact with the rim. That would do it.
    Yep, horrible.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  20. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    you haven't been around there long enough huh? Every single time a disc brake topic comes up, this happens. I'm a little surprised that Rashad (the OP) started this topic since he's been posting around here long enough to know fully well this isn't gonna be an "end all" thread!
    Stop it. I have said it like five times now. My sole reason for creating this thread was to move this discussion to one place rather than have it taking over every other thread on the site. My goodness. People can tune in or tune out on the topic as they please now instead having a disc debate take over a discussion about the new Specialized such and such coming out next month, etc. Ultimately, if you don't like the discussion, stop coming into the thread man, that's really the point.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  21. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceugene View Post
    Kontact's earlier reply describes the fear of his preferred style of bike disappearing as soon as the pros adopt disc-brakes en masse.

    And when more bikes like the Emonda SLR Disc hit the UCI minimum weight, but have advantages on stages with multiple climbs? You already saw two Trek-Segafredo riders using the disc Emondas at the Colorado Classic.

    It's the pros with their arbitrary weight limitations that see the LEAST benefit from staying on rim-brakes.

    But yes, I'll go to pro races in the coming years and see for myself. At Trek World last week, they already hinted at the tipping point being this season. We'll see.
    Told ya so. ;)

    “Everyone who was on a Emonda rim-brake bike in 2017 will be on a disc-brake bike in 2018 in every race. That means all of the climbing guys,” Shriver told Cyclingnews. “Before the concerns were weight, wheel-changing and safety. Now with rounded edges, bikes at 6.8kg, it’s just about having the wheel change as fast as or faster than caliper brakes.


  22. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceugene View Post
    Told ya so. ;)

    “Everyone who was on a Emonda rim-brake bike in 2017 will be on a disc-brake bike in 2018 in every race. That means all of the climbing guys,” Shriver told Cyclingnews. “Before the concerns were weight, wheel-changing and safety. Now with rounded edges, bikes at 6.8kg, it’s just about having the wheel change as fast as or faster than caliper brakes.

    Makes sense. I admit surprise there hasn't been more a wholesale transition to disc brakes in the pro peloton. I really like the new Emonda SLR and in fact with the right deal would ride one.

    Since disc brakes do stop better and are only fractionally heavier...aero tweaks can be made to make them within less than a handful of watts at racing speed in terms of aero deficit, there has to be more to it why pro racing hasn't embraced disc brakes more fully. I believe you touched on it. For most of us that have owned disc brake bikes, wheel changes haven't always gone seamlessly and sometimes if not most times the caliper needs to realigned to not rub the rotor. With rim brakes in the haste of a wheel change, the option of 'opening up the caliper' exists to mitigate rub...why the caliper cam is serrated..to strike a mid range when this position is called upon. This latitude doesn't exist in pro racing with disc brakes. In theory, thru axles go a long way to greater repeatability in the 'registry' of a replacement wheel with attached rotor...this combination having a lateral tolerance for example which should be pretty small.

    I will say further that the design of road bike disc brakes will only improve. I believe there will reach a tipping point when pro racing embraces discs more fully. Again, I am surprised this didn't occur in 2017 but rim brakes vastly out populated pro racing compared to disc bikes. Will see in 2018.
    Last edited by 11spd; 01-02-2018 at 01:35 PM.

  23. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Makes sense. I admit surprise there hasn't been more a wholesale transition to disc brakes in the pro peloton. I really like the new Emonda SLR and in fact with the right deal would ride one.

    Since disc brakes do stop better and are only fractionally heavier...aero tweaks can be made to make them within less than a handful of watts at racing speed in terms of aero deficit, there has to be more to it why pro racing hasn't embraced disc brakes more fully. I believe you touched on it. For most of us that have owned disc brake bikes, wheel changes haven't always gone seamlessly and sometimes if not most times the caliper needs to realigned to not rub the rotor. With rim brakes in the haste of a wheel change, the option of 'opening up the caliper' exists to mitigate rub...why the caliper cam is serrated..to strike a mid range when this position is called upon. This latitude doesn't exist in pro racing with disc brakes. In theory, thru axles go a long way to greater repeatability in the 'registry' of a replacement wheel with attached rotor...this combination having a lateral tolerance for example which should be pretty small.

    I will say further that the design of road bike disc brakes will only improve. I believe there will reach a tipping point when pro racing embraces discs more fully. Again, I am surprised this didn't occur in 2017 but rim brakes vastly out populated pro racing compared to disc bikes. Will see in 2018.
    The article on cyclingnews.com mentions how they can actually do front wheel changes faster on the disc setup, but the rear wheel change is slower and they are still trying to figure out how to improve that.

    As far as alignment/setup experience with my mtb using Avid hydros, it certainly is a bit sensitive to get dialed-in just right when you initially install the disc brakes, but I've seen no problems after that setup with switching wheels and no adjustment is necessary.

    It is a fact though that if something happens in a crash such that your disc caliper alignment gets out-of-whack, or even worse your disc rotor gets bent, then you are screwed. This is an area where rim brakes have a lot more leeway, and you can even easily adjust the caliper to deal with a brake rub issue if you have to. It's probably a rare thing to experience, but it has actually happened to me in a mtb race before. Basically, I had one of the 2 bolts holding the disc caliper come loose and it was rubbing and rattling as I continued to ride. I was actually able to finish the race (another 1 hour or more), but it was definitely slowing me down.

  24. #574
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    Outside of neutral service, I don’t think wheel changes will be a problem. The riders in the mix for points will just swap bikes as quickly as a wheel change is needed. For flats, I wouldn’t be surprised if teams started moving to tubeless tubulars with sealant in the meantime.

  25. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    For most of us that have owned disc brake bikes, wheel changes haven't always gone seamlessly and sometimes if not most times the caliper needs to realigned to not rub the rotor.
    The key here is to not let the brake lever get pulled while the wheel is out. Of course, this is easier said than done. The lever can be inadvertently pulled while loading and unloading in the car. This is how I found out. I also found out that I can stuff the whole bike in the car without removing the front wheel.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



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