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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    It is also analogous to TC's usage which is loss of propulsion with propellers in the water as an example. Continuity of fluid is interrupted and therefore loss of propulsion. Voids or pockets of fluid per the second and common definition of cavitation causes loss of energy transfer. Point is, TC knows this but was being a dick. That is the point. TC is a dick and he knows it. This stuff is elementary to any degreed engineer or somebody like TC who has a background in physics.

    Same dynamic with Tig. Tig is a dick which most on the forum know. His references he posted don't have relevancy to discussion at hand. Of course nothing in the universe is incompressible from diamonds to brake fluid to water if you dive off the high dive and land on your stomach. But, compressibility is very high for 'all' liquids and common brake fluids that are spec'ed for braking if uncontaminated.

    It is the contamination of brake fluid that changes its properties, from ingress of water which will lower its boiling point ergo the hygroscopic nature of most brake fluids to either the dissolvement or entrapment of air in the lines of a brake system that will degrade braking. Water ingression 'can' cause boiling albeit quite rare under very continuous braking conditions and I explained how dissolvement of air actually detracts very little counterintuitively from compressibility because of how the molecules line up. By contrast, air as an adjunct to brake fluid in the line has a high degree of compressibility which results in lost braking. Many have experienced this. Now it could be argued that Tig isn't stupid either but his links weren't relevant. He may understand that they weren't relevant either but like TC Tig is a known dick.

    Now you XXL, you may qualify as just dumb. Not sure. You really haven't posted any substance either way. So you are merely benign which is OK.
    Way over the line, and you know better. After the time-out, the warnings are done.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    Way over the line, and you know better. After the time-out, the warnings are done.
    Thank you Coolhand! After multiple temp bans, you think 11spd would've learned, but I guess not.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah2000 View Post
    Yep, everybody has different experiences. Just out of curiosity, what pads and brakes are you using? I've had issues with resin and sintered Shimano pads in the wet.

    When it comes to snow, I don't know how you get around getting snow-packed calipers. For me, it only takes 3-4 inches and a few miles of riding, and they're usually packed tight. It's obviously worse with mechanical discs than hydros, because the lever arm also gets jammed.
    I'm using Shimano's early road disc calipers which were an offshoot of XTR calipers and resin pads.

    I think you may have missed my (deep snow and slush notwithstanding) disclaimer. I agree that deep wet snow or slush is a problem and I try to avoid it on my road bike for a number of reasons. If I were still mountain biking in those conditions I would prefer V brakes. They work poorly as well but are easier to clean

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    I'm using Shimano's early road disc calipers which were an offshoot of XTR calipers and resin pads.

    I think you may have missed my (deep snow and slush notwithstanding) disclaimer. I agree that deep wet snow or slush is a problem and I try to avoid it on my road bike for a number of reasons. If I were still mountain biking in those conditions I would prefer V brakes. They work poorly as well but are easier to clean
    Gotcha. Yep, I missed your disclaimer.

  5. #705
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    Don't think I've commented on this thread, yet. But it has so many replies, i thought I'd try to help it along to 1,000.

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  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    Way over the line, and you know better. After the time-out, the warnings are done.
    As an innocent lurker bystander on the portion of the thread and the character to whom you refer, how does it go so far over such a long period of time? It's baffling. Stepping in at this point seems IMO and with respect to being pointless. And the situation is that the main players are habitual offenders who all get a pass here and everywhere else or so it seems.

  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Don't think I've commented on this thread, yet. But it has so many replies, i thought I'd try to help it along to 1,000.
    LOL! Your comment is just as useful as any of the others in this thread.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Thank you Coolhand! After multiple temp bans, you think 11spd would've learned, but I guess not.
    aren't you gonna give him some fake rep., VI?
    Oh my, a troll who doesn't know the difference between your and you're. What will they think of next?

  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    aren't you gonna give him some fake rep., VI?
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to factory feel again.

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by shermes View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to factory feel again.
    Hahahaha I love it!

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    aren't you gonna give him some fake rep., VI?
    Sounds like you're upset now that your fellow troll friend has been banned. Boohoohoo!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Sounds like you're upset now that your fellow troll friend has been banned. Boohoohoo!
    He still owns you even when he’s temp suspended!

  13. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    He still owns you even when he’s temp suspended!
    Sorry dude, I don't think this one is a temp.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  14. #714
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    Please return to how fabulous/terrible disc brakes on road bikes are. We can get to 30 pages!
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  15. #715
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    Disc Brakes are great except on road bikes, until I get one then they'll be great on them too!
    Oh my, a troll who doesn't know the difference between your and you're. What will they think of next?

  16. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    Please return to how fabulous/terrible disc brakes on road bikes are. We can get to 30 pages!
    There are fabulous rim brakes and disc brakes.

    There are terrible rim brakes and disc brakes.

    There, how's that?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  17. #717
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    slurp
    Oh my, a troll who doesn't know the difference between your and you're. What will they think of next?

  18. #718
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    This just in- I now have two road bikes with disc brakes. TWO! /evil cackle
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    This just in- I now have two road bikes with disc brakes. TWO! /evil cackle
    Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask:

    How do you like your disc brakes?

    Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?

    Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?

    Asking for a friend.
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  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask:

    How do you like your disc brakes?

    Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?

    Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?

    Asking for a friend.
    I own 7 bikes. Only one, my gravel bike has hydraulic disc brakes.

    Disc brakes are awesome except when they suck, except that I haven't found an instance when they suck. The same goes for rim brakes.
    Last edited by Lombard; 1 Week Ago at 07:55 AM.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  21. #721
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    my wife just did the Whistler fondo again. heavy rain two years in a row. last year with rim brakes .. ahem without any brakes on the downhills. This year with disc brakes and perfect braking on the downhills. it's a win.

    I did that fondo last year with rim brakes. chose not to do it this year due to the horrible experience riding in rain, with no brakes. Though it was nowhere near as hair raising as descending Alpe dHuez in a heavy rain thunderstorm with half a million other people, and rim non-brakes. It's an infrequent enough occurrence I am riding down mountains in driving rain, that rim brakes will suffice. But sometimes, not.
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

  22. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask:

    How do you like your disc brakes?

    Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?

    Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?

    Asking for a friend.
    4 mountain bikes - three hydro disc and one mechanical
    4 road bikes - three rim brake and one hydro disc

    The mechanical disc brakes were good but certainly lacked power. On the other hand they were stupid easy to setup and adjust just like rim brakes.

    One bike had Avid Elixir brakes which were an absolute headache even from being brand new. They had plenty of power but they squealed constantly, inconsistent lever feel and after only 400 miles the caliper seals started leaking. They were trashed immediately and replaced with Shimano's cheapest hydro brakes for $50 which was a massive improvement.

    Latest two mountain bikes have had the same set of Shimano XT brakes which have been basically maintenance free for over 2,500 miles and the performance is stellar. Have always been quiet (unless wet) and I've only had to bleed them twice. The first bleed was only done since I was replacing brake pads anyway. The second bleed I did to fix a sticky piston on the rear caliper. I did have the rotors get coated with ice once while riding in snow at 5 degrees F. Braking was almost non existent at first but the thin layer or ice melted pretty quick and braking was back to normal. The brakes froze during a 1 hour climb.

    My first road bike was a 1980's Schwinn World Sport that I got for free 4 years ago which got me into road cycling. Not going to bother commenting on the braking performance of that bike.

    Next bike was a Fuji SST with Tektro calipers. Braking performance was OK under most situations but hard braking into a sharp downhill corners created some weird vibrating issues through the fork. I'm thinking it was the flexy calipers binding up and unloading under high demand. Wet braking performance was fine but inconsistent. Sometimes it would be good, other times you had to wait a few seconds. After rain rides the rims were coated in gray crap that I felt the need to clean off. I've used the bike in 4 inch deep snow and had absolutely no brakes what so ever no matter how hard the lever was pulled and it never got better.

    Next two bikes were just bought earlier this year. 2018 Fuji Transonic with R8000 rim brakes and a 2018 Fuji SL with R8020 disc brakes (for my wife). I've ridden both bikes in mountainous terrain and in torrential downpours. The dry braking on the Transonic with direct mount rim calipers was excellent when new but had faded quite a bit after 1,100 miles despite being clean. In heavy rain braking is more of a vague suggestion. The rims are also coated in gray crap that I need to clean off after a wet ride.

    On the SL with disc brakes there is a very negligible difference in performance between dry and soaking wet. When wet they will squeal from time to time, mostly with the initial pull of the brakes. Also like my mountain bike brakes I have never needed to clean the rotors from normal use like I do with rim brakes. They have about 800 miles on them now and have been trouble free. Based on current wear I'm expecting the pads to last for 1,500 to 2,000 miles. I haven't had to bleed them yet, still feel the same as they did on the first ride.

    I have seen no statistically significant difference in speed between the two when I ride them. My next road bike a few years from now will no doubt have disc brakes. Until then my wife loves her SL with disc and I love my mountain bikes with disc.

  23. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    Since we're so close to thirty pages, and I'm not sure anyone has actually weighed in on the topic, let me ask:

    How do you like your disc brakes?

    Do you notice differences/prefer one set of discs to the other?

    Do you have any rim brake bikes? How much do they suck/how awesome (pick one) are they?

    Asking for a friend.
    I like them bigly. I had an older Trek Boone with the Shimano hydraulic discs- it was my gravel mountains bike. Lots of steep descents and long gravel descents in bad weather that the canti-brakes I had been using before didn't work well enough. Sold that bike (Boone) as part of the early summer massive sell-off to buy my new Madone Disc.

    so Bike 1: Madone Disc SLR 9- sold a bunch of stuff to afford this one. Replaced an older Madone with Ultegra Di2 retrofitted (I think this frame is still available as the low level Madone now). I run deep aero carbon clincher wheels, so the two biggest flaws were (1) poor braking on big long downhills and terrible braking in the wet, which were real issues for some of the races I do, and (2) annoying wheel rub against the brake pads on hard efforts (major pet peeve). Otherwise the older Madone was aero race bike perfection. The Madone Disc eliminated both major flaws of the last bike. And I got a couple of nice improvements- the aero road bars can now be tinted up at the hoods, the shape doesn't tap my thighs out of the saddle anymore, and the new XXX aero wheels are less susceptible to cross winds. Through-axle design helps with wheel interface stiffness as well. It's a superb bike if you like to go fast, and the ISOspeed + carbon wheels makes it the most comfortable aero bike I have ridden. Downsides: its quite expensive. The new SLR7 Disc version may be the sweet spot,

    Bike 2: Domane Disc SLR7: I had a gravel event come up in November, and was going to apply some store credit from selling a mountain bike to get an affordable Trek Checkpoint with Ultegra mechanical and discs, but it lacked a few things I wanted, and one thing lead to another and I sort of fell in love with this bike, and so much for my budget. The bike is baller though. This bike is playing the Boone role of gravel and steep mountains- including sharp descents, gravel descents, and bad weather- often at the same time in timed events. Proper Shimano hydro discs on my Boone allowed me to immediately set PRs over my very expensive custom bike with cantis. No going back for me.

    But as you can see, I am sort of the best use case for hydraulic disc brakes and road bikes. Also the worst case scenario for impulse control and new bikes. . . .
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  24. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    I like them bigly. I had an older Trek Boone with the Shimano hydraulic discs- it was my gravel mountains bike. Lots of steep descents and long gravel descents in bad weather that the canti-brakes I had been using before didn't work well enough. Sold that bike (Boone) as part of the early summer massive sell-off to buy my new Madone Disc.

    so Bike 1: Madone Disc SLR 9- sold a bunch of stuff to afford this one. Replaced an older Madone with Ultegra Di2 retrofitted (I think this frame is still available as the low level Madone now). I run deep aero carbon clincher wheels, so the two biggest flaws were (1) poor braking on big long downhills and terrible braking in the wet, which were real issues for some of the races I do, and (2) annoying wheel rub against the brake pads on hard efforts (major pet peeve). Otherwise the older Madone was aero race bike perfection. The Madone Disc eliminated both major flaws of the last bike. And I got a couple of nice improvements- the aero road bars can now be tinted up at the hoods, the shape doesn't tap my thighs out of the saddle anymore, and the new XXX aero wheels are less susceptible to cross winds. Through-axle design helps with wheel interface stiffness as well. It's a superb bike if you like to go fast, and the ISOspeed + carbon wheels makes it the most comfortable aero bike I have ridden. Downsides: its quite expensive. The new SLR7 Disc version may be the sweet spot,

    Bike 2: Domane Disc SLR7: I had a gravel event come up in November, and was going to apply some store credit from selling a mountain bike to get an affordable Trek Checkpoint with Ultegra mechanical and discs, but it lacked a few things I wanted, and one thing lead to another and I sort of fell in love with this bike, and so much for my budget. The bike is baller though. This bike is playing the Boone role of gravel and steep mountains- including sharp descents, gravel descents, and bad weather- often at the same time in timed events. Proper Shimano hydro discs on my Boone allowed me to immediately set PRs over my very expensive custom bike with cantis. No going back for me.

    But as you can see, I am sort of the best use case for hydraulic disc brakes and road bikes. Also the worst case scenario for impulse control and new bikes. . . .
    Shucks, looking at the price tags for those rides stopped me quicker than any braking system.

    (Not to judge, though; they look like mighty sweet rides).

    Srsly, thanks for you and the OPs who weighed in. My takeaway was that if I were to go disc, it should be hydraulic.

    I don't race, and I don't ride in nearly the same conditions (mostly on pavement with a lot of short-but-steep hills, occasionally on gravel, but relatively level gravel, and dry if I can help it). I'm thinking that my next bike might be to replace an ancient Cinelli "ATB" I use for the (very) occasional woodland rides I do.

    Now, one more bit of advice: What's the fastest bike for escaping a spouse who might find out that one spent a couple hundred bucks on her for her birthday, but twelve large for a bicycle for oneself?
    More Americans wanted Hillary Clinton to be President than wanted Donald Trump.

    Donald Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

  25. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    Shucks, looking at the price tags for those rides stopped me quicker than any braking system.

    (Not to judge, though; they look like mighty sweet rides).

    Srsly, thanks for you and the OPs who weighed in. My takeaway was that if I were to go disc, it should be hydraulic.

    I don't race, and I don't ride in nearly the same conditions (mostly on pavement with a lot of short-but-steep hills, occasionally on gravel, but relatively level gravel, and dry if I can help it). I'm thinking that my next bike might be to replace an ancient Cinelli "ATB" I use for the (very) occasional woodland rides I do.

    Now, one more bit of advice: What's the fastest bike for escaping a spouse who might find out that one spent a couple hundred bucks on her for her birthday, but twelve large for a bicycle for oneself?
    Trek Travel vacation to Provence.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

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