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  1. #51
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    Cool

    WTF
    How is this even a discussion?

    All the data models and testing have come to a consensus.

    You've seen the evidence first hand on many occasions.

    Disk brakes are better and safer.

    If you disagree, you are a Disk Denier. Get with the program here to save everyone now........ your kids...... and their kids.

    Pass the saying along
    If you're not disk, yuz racist.
    It's a fire road.............
    I'm on a road bike..........

    They have enough in common to blast down it.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Disc brake riders are the nervous 'ride the brakes' guys down the mountain.

    Yeah, we call those guys flatlanders, hence your familiarity




    .

  3. #53
    What the what???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    My first question for you is are you removing your front wheel between rides for transport? If so, your brake lever may be getting pulled while the wheel is out. This will re-adjust the calipers for a narrower clearance so they will be too close when you put your wheel back in. If you remove a wheel, you need to make absolutely sure your brake levers do not get pulled.

    You will need to start over with a caliper spreader.
    Nope. No transport involved. The wheels stay put. In my case, the rear wheel seems to be the biggest culprit. By the end of the ride today, for example, rolling the bike into the garage I could hear the rear brake rub/squeal. It's as if the piston/pad doesn't quite return fully after braking.

    Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.
    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - MLK

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.
    I am not here to boast one type of brakes over the others. And it is quite apparent there are a few people trolling this thread just for S&Gs.

    Regardless of what your opinion is on rim and disc brakes' performance, I'm pretty sure the problem you are having is not typical of hydraulic disc brakes. There is a specific problem. Are you sure they were set up properly to begin with? Hydraulic brakes are basically set and forget, but you need to do the set part properly.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Speed of descending has nothing to do with brake type. If you understood bike racing, you would understand. Speed of descending has to do with talent, aerodynamics and ball size of the rider.
    You seem to be the only one here with such an astute "understanding" of the concept of going fast.

    The fact is, using any kind of brakes while descending makes you go slower (that's why they're not called accelerators). It makes a person wonder why in the hell they even put them on race bikes?

    On the other hand, the question of whether big balls are as effective as having brains is tough to answer for those without the latter.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    WTF
    How is this even a discussion?

    All the data models and testing have come to a consensus.

    You've seen the evidence first hand on many occasions.

    Disk brakes are better and safer.

    If you disagree, you are a Disk Denier. Get with the program here to save everyone now........ your kids...... and their kids.

    Pass the saying along
    If you're not disk, yuz racist.
    Seen the data? In a field of 150 riders in the pro peloton, 145 are on rim brakes and only reason 5 guys ride disc is because their bike sponsors insist and their favorite movie was Goldfinger growing up.

  7. #57
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    You seem to be the only one here with such an astute "understanding" of the concept of going fast.
    Thanks. Why I feel it is almost my calling to help those less enlightened to spend less on a good dual pivot rim brake bike. I feel ultimately it will bode better for the sport, not to mention save on bandaids. No reason big bike brands need to turn more profit based upon the ignorance of the bike buying public. Of course a $2K bike is as fast as a $10K bike and there is that inevitable inverse correlation between bike price and rider prowess on group rides. Reality of amateur sport is, people always try to buy game. Disc brakes and will throw electric shifting in the mix are the $700 driver that every 18 handicapper must have to play better.
    Last edited by 11spd; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:20 AM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    In your previous comment you said that a good rider could make up the deficit that rim brakes have, but that assumes that only the rim brake rider is good.
    I never said that someone on discs would automatically be faster, but all things being equal, disc could allow a good rider to take those bigger risks. In fact, I have been in that position descending where I was able to out brake a rider on rim brakes but would have had to take a big risk to get by them, which of course was not worth doing since my paycheck doesn't rely on my getting down hills or to a finish line first


    .
    No, that wasn't my assumption. I was just saying if you have 2 riders that are fairly equal skill wise, the guy with the rim brakes has a fair chance of hanging with his buddy. And, let's be honest there are people that are going to equate having disc brakes vs having rim brakes as being able to go faster on downhill sections. In fact one poseur in a previous disc brake discussion thinks anyone with rim brakes is an idiot.

    All too often people think newer is (borrow a term) "hugely " better. Disc brakes, electronic shifting, carbon rims, tubeless tires. Seen it, heard it all before when I was on motorcycles. Every time the latest greatest piece of plastic fantastic hit the street; there they were talking about how fast they were in the twisties. The conversation would eventually get around to "when are you going to get a real bike?" I'm thinking "uh huh, those tail lights way up in front you, that would be me". When I was on motorcycles, some people (poseurs, squids, techno geeks) thought technology automatically made them fast rather than actually going out to a track and learning how to go fast.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    Nope. No transport involved. The wheels stay put. In my case, the rear wheel seems to be the biggest culprit. By the end of the ride today, for example, rolling the bike into the garage I could hear the rear brake rub/squeal. It's as if the piston/pad doesn't quite return fully after braking.

    Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.
    your problem is not uncommon to hydro disc. Sorry to say this, but that caliper will need to be rebuilt, its seals replaced. It's most likely the seals are preventing the piston from returning like they should. Many hydro disc brands will sell a rebuilding kit. Go to Mtbr.com, there's a whole sub forum on disc brake, you'll find better tips about your issue in that sub forum, but like I said, you'll need to rebuild that caliper. I have rebuilt a few calipers in the past, from Magura to Shimano to Hope. It's not hard if you're mechanically inclined, but if you're a first timer, it can be a mess with the oil, so be prepared with lots of rags and cardboard box (so the oil doesn't stain your patio, garage, backyard).

    me, I just stay with rim brakes and aluminum wheels, on my roadies. Never heard of rebuilding a rim brake lol

  10. #60
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    FWIW (and I know a lot of you guys have made your minds up one way or the other and don't care), the biggest benefits of going with discs to me are the added room for wider tires and the opportunity to rely on something other than a rim based brake track for braking (which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions). Everything else seems to be pretty close, so it should come down to personal preference. Weight is getting closer every day and companies like Scott are effectively addressing the aerodynamic disparity.

    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    No, that wasn't my assumption. I was just saying if you have 2 riders that are fairly equal skill wise, the guy with the rim brakes has a fair chance of hanging with his buddy. And, let's be honest there are people that are going to equate having disc brakes vs having rim brakes as being able to go faster on downhill sections. In fact one poseur in a previous disc brake discussion thinks anyone with rim brakes is an idiot.

    All too often people think newer is (borrow a term) "hugely " better. Disc brakes, electronic shifting, carbon rims, tubeless tires. Seen it, heard it all before when I was on motorcycles. Every time the latest greatest piece of plastic fantastic hit the street; there they were talking about how fast they were in the twisties. The conversation would eventually get around to "when are you going to get a real bike?" I'm thinking "uh huh, those tail lights way up in front you, that would be me". When I was on motorcycles, some people (poseurs, squids, techno geeks) thought technology automatically made them fast rather than actually going out to a track and learning how to go fast.
    lol ain't everyone has a story to tell in motorcycling! but you right, in motorcycling, especially the sporting crowds, it's religion to believe that latest stuff will buy you speed. It's even worse than rim vs disc in road cycling debate. But at the end of the day, we all the know the fastest guys thru the canyons, the knee and knuckle draggers, are:
    1. the most skilled
    2. big balls
    3. tend to be younger guys without life's obligations

    but honestly sometimes I feel that "some" our spandexter brothers here are like ballerinas sometimes, fragile beings who fancy going fast but really lacking the skills, and thinking equipment will buy them speed. I guess it's human nature to think that if you're slower than the other guy, then it must be our equipment that's holding us back. Seems like developing skills is old school. New school wants to just buy equipment instead of skills.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    FWIW (and I know a lot of you guys have made your minds up one way or the other and don't care), the biggest benefits of going with discs to me are the added room for wider tires and the opportunity to rely on something other than a rim based brake track for braking (which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions). Everything else seems to be pretty close, so it should come down to personal preference. Weight is getting closer every day and companies like Scott are effectively addressing the aerodynamic disparity.

    "which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions"..

    where you from? Socal?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Seen the data? In a field of 150 riders in the pro peloton, 145 are on rim brakes and only reason 5 guys ride disc is because their bike sponsors insist and their favorite movie was Goldfinger growing up.

    Goldmember was a much better film.

    Don't forget the importance of tire width and PSI when it comes to speed.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    "which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions"..

    where you from? Socal?
    Nope, Georgia.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    lol ain't everyone has a story to tell in motorcycling! but you right, in motorcycling, especially the sporting crowds, it's religion to believe that latest stuff will buy you speed. It's even worse than rim vs disc in road cycling debate. But at the end of the day, we all the know the fastest guys thru the canyons, the knee and knuckle draggers, are:
    1. the most skilled
    2. big balls
    3. tend to be younger guys without life's obligations

    but honestly sometimes I feel that "some" our spandexter brothers here are like ballerinas sometimes, fragile beings who fancy going fast but really lacking the skills, and thinking equipment will buy them speed. I guess it's human nature to think that if you're slower than the other guy, then it must be our equipment that's holding us back. Seems like developing skills is old school. New school wants to just buy equipment instead of skills.
    Perfectly stated.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    your problem is not uncommon to hydro disc. Sorry to say this, but that caliper will need to be rebuilt, its seals replaced. It's most likely the seals are preventing the piston from returning like they should. Many hydro disc brands will sell a rebuilding kit. Go to Mtbr.com, there's a whole sub forum on disc brake, you'll find better tips about your issue in that sub forum, but like I said, you'll need to rebuild that caliper. I have rebuilt a few calipers in the past, from Magura to Shimano to Hope. It's not hard if you're mechanically inclined, but if you're a first timer, it can be a mess with the oil, so be prepared with lots of rags and cardboard box (so the oil doesn't stain your patio, garage, backyard).

    me, I just stay with rim brakes and aluminum wheels, on my roadies. Never heard of rebuilding a rim brake lol
    More good info. I run Shimano dual pivot rim brakes on Campy bikes because they are so good. I think the GCN video what pretty revealing. And the comparison was on a descent that few...some, but few experience. Remarkable the rim brake bike beat the disc bike down the mountain in dry conditions...thought being, the heavier disc bike would descend faster ;)

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    FWIW (and I know a lot of you guys have made your minds up one way or the other and don't care), the biggest benefits of going with discs to me are the added room for wider tires and the opportunity to rely on something other than a rim based brake track for braking (which opens the door to running deeper carbon rims in all conditions). Everything else seems to be pretty close, so it should come down to personal preference. Weight is getting closer every day and companies like Scott are effectively addressing the aerodynamic disparity.
    IMHO, the greatest advantage to hydro disc brakes is superior modulation. All the other "advantages" pale in comparison.

    Great tire clearance? You can achieve this with cantilever brakes.

    Having something other than the rim as your brake surface? Since I don't ever intend to use carbon rims, this would only be an advantage if I want my rims to last 40K miles instead of 20K miles. At 3K miles per year, either of those will take awhile.

    I don't care about weight or aerodynamics as I don't race, so neither of these is a game changer.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    IMHO, the greatest advantage to hydro disc brakes is superior modulation. All the other "advantages" pale in comparison.

    Great tire clearance? You can achieve this with cantilever brakes.

    Having something other than the rim as your brake surface? Since I don't ever intend to use carbon rims, this would only be an advantage if I want my rims to last 40K miles instead of 20K miles. At 3K miles per year, either of those will take awhile.

    I don't care about weight or aerodynamics as I don't race, so neither of these is a game changer.
    Ok, but ummmm..... nobody is producing cantilever equipped bikes anymore. Not sure where you were going with that one. Modulation is right up there though. I personally think wider tire clearance is a bigger deal for a number of reasons, but modulation is important too, so good point. I do like carbon rims and prefer the idea of only having to replace a rotor and brake pads, etc. instead of a $700- $2000 pair of wheels every time the surface wears out. To each his own at the end of the day though.

    Edit:

    If you meant direct mount brakes, I concede that's a solid middle ground on some levels.
    Last edited by Rashadabd; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:34 AM.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    Ok, but ummmm..... nobody is producing cantilever equipped bikes anymore. Not sure where you were going with that one.
    Not sure whether any are actually being made anymore. If not, there is still plenty of new/old stock out there:

    https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...B1sQ8wIIgAMwAw

    https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...B1sQ8wIIhwMwBA

    Not that I have any love for canti brakes. I don't. Just saying that is still an option for wider clearances if you want to go that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    I do like carbon rims and prefer the idea of only having to replace a rotor and brake pads, etc. instead of a $700- $2000 pair of wheels every time the surface wears out.
    This is definitely an issue if you ride a lot - especially in foul weather which can wear down brake surfaces a lot faster. While definitely a valid argument, I would not consciously choose disc brakes for this reason alone. As I said, I only ride 3K miles per year, I don't ride in foul weather, and my riding is spread out on a few different bikes. It may be a long while before I wear down a rim brake track. Also, I have never spent more than about $650 on a wheelset.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    No, that wasn't my assumption. I was just saying if you have 2 riders that are fairly equal skill wise, the guy with the rim brakes has a fair chance of hanging with his buddy. And, let's be honest there are people that are going to equate having disc brakes vs having rim brakes as being able to go faster on downhill sections. In fact one poseur in a previous disc brake discussion thinks anyone with rim brakes is an idiot.

    All too often people think newer is (borrow a term) "hugely " better. Disc brakes, electronic shifting, carbon rims, tubeless tires. Seen it, heard it all before when I was on motorcycles. Every time the latest greatest piece of plastic fantastic hit the street; there they were talking about how fast they were in the twisties. The conversation would eventually get around to "when are you going to get a real bike?" I'm thinking "uh huh, those tail lights way up in front you, that would be me". When I was on motorcycles, some people (poseurs, squids, techno geeks) thought technology automatically made them fast rather than actually going out to a track and learning how to go fast.

    I am of the belief that the only thing you can buy that makes you faster on a bike (particularly for recreational riders) is the way it looks. The more you lust over the bike, the more you want to ride it, the stronger and faster you get.


    Now you said "On a mountain descent, a good rider will easily make up any deficit rim brakes may have. ", and my point is that if both riders are of equally good skills, the rider with the deficit would not have the upper hand in skills needed to close the gap. So yes, your statement assumed that one rider is better than the other.

    In my personal experience you can out brake (with disc) other riders when going into tight hairpins, but you have to have the skills and the balls to do that. You also have to really get it right or you end up going slower, which is usually what happens. And of course you are very rarely in such a situation that it would be worth doing, even in a pro race, why take the chance?

    But I didn't get disc brakes because of some illusion it would be faster, I got them because I enjoy the control, consistency, and feel they offer over rim brakes, which to me feel like **** in comparison. I do a lot of technical descending and the disc brakes definitely give me more confidence and enjoyment. And they are even mo betta for the times that I have to go slow down the mountain due to traffic etc.

    As a motorcyclist, you should be able to relate to how the feel of the brakes and other controls are important to the enjoyment (and safety) of the machine. Motorcycle and sports car engineers put a lot of work into the feel of the brakes, shifter, throttle, chassis, etc., for this reason. You wouldn't want to drive a Ferrari that had a squishy brake pedal, or steering that didn't give you any feedback. Mazda put a huge effort into how the shifter feels on the Miata, and it adds bigly to how fun the car is. For me, disc is about the feel more than the performance. ;)


    I don't care what kind of brakes anyone uses, but it's really annoying that folks constantly have to jump in on any discussion about a bike with disc brakes and start crapping on them. Never seen a disc brake user get on a thread about a rim brake bike and start telling them how much rim brakes suck, etc.






    .

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Not sure whether any are actually being made anymore. If not, there is still plenty of new/old stock out there:

    https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...B1sQ8wIIgAMwAw

    https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...B1sQ8wIIhwMwBA

    Not that I have any love for canti brakes. I don't. Just saying that is still an option for wider clearances if you want to go that way.



    This is definitely an issue if you ride a lot - especially in foul weather which can wear down brake surfaces a lot faster. While definitely a valid argument, I would not consciously choose disc brakes for this reason alone. As I said, I only ride 3K miles per year, I don't ride in foul weather, and my riding is spread out on a few different bikes. It may be a long while before I wear down a rim brake track. Also, I have never spent more than about $650 on a wheelset.
    Yeah, I have zero interest in cantilever brakes. They aren't even on my radar. I currently have a rim brake equipped bike, but I plan on my next purchase being disc and I'm about 99.9% firm on that. It's just a preference I have after multiple tests. I like disc brakes, others may not, and I am fine with that. I'm glad there are different options available for people with different interests and needs. The rest of the name calling and elitism that colors this debate is for the birds in my opinion. Everyone should do them though (as long as they are doing it in the right thread/place )
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    Nope. No transport involved. The wheels stay put. In my case, the rear wheel seems to be the biggest culprit. By the end of the ride today, for example, rolling the bike into the garage I could hear the rear brake rub/squeal. It's as if the piston/pad doesn't quite return fully after braking.

    Oh well. As I said, I think they have their uses, but the benefits don't outweigh the hassle for the riding I do. Live and learn, I suppose.
    Try removing the wheel, then loosening the bolts on the caliper, then fold a business card in half and put it over the rotor and re-insert into caliper. Clamp down on the brakes, then re-tighten the bolts.


    .

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    I currently have a rim brake equipped bike, but I plan on my next purchase being disc and I'm about 99.9% firm on that. It's just a preference I have after multiple tests.
    If you get a disc brake bike, make sure they are hydraulic. That is where to superior modulation comes from, not the fact that they are disc. Mechanical disc brakes have crappy modulation. Just my own advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    I like disc brakes, others may not, and I am fine with that. I'm glad there are different options available for people with different interests and needs. The rest of the name calling and elitism that colors this debate is for the birds in my opinion.
    I concur. Though as I said earlier, I think some in this thread were just acting the part for S&Gs and actually making fun of the elitists who make similar remarks and claim superiority of one type of brake over the other.

    Don't forget, you started this thread. You have been on RBR long enough to know where it would go.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    If you get a disc brake bike, make sure they are hydraulic. That is where to superior modulation comes from, not the fact that they are disc. Mechanical disc brakes have crappy modulation. Just my own advice.



    I concur. Though as I said earlier, I think some in this thread were just acting the part for S&Gs and actually making fun of the elitists who make similar remarks and claim superiority of one type of brake over the other.

    Don't forget, you started this thread. You have been on RBR long enough to know where it would go.
    Oh, it's absolutely hydraulic or nothing. I am actually only really looking at Scott options at this point and they don't really offer much below Tiagra and 105 (both hydro) for their carbon bikes. Yes, I knew where it would go, but like I said before, I prefer this over having to read this same debate in multiple threads all over the site every time a disc brake equipped bike is mentioned. If it's in it's place, I can deal because I can easily stop coming to this thread if I get tired of it (which is coming soon). If the same debate and bickering/demeaning behavior takes over multiple threads all over the place, it makes people want to leave the site, which is not good IMO. It's not my thing per se, but this is fine to me.

    https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/p...icle=265347023

    https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/p...icle=265334022

    https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/p...icle=265351025
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankout View Post
    Goldmember was a much better film.

    Don't forget the importance of tire width and PSI when it comes to speed.
    In bold, were the same in GCN rim versus disc test. Rim brake beat the disc bike down the mountain in the dry.

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